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Post by morton235 on Sept 5, 2018 12:13:33 GMT
Sweet Jesus I'm nervous. We've decided tomorrow will be the day the ladies will be introduced to Mr Goo (our lone neutered male). Things have been tense between Riley and Bounce for the past few days, some chasing, guarding of the wheel, boxing, tail waggling and Bounce shoving her butt in Rileys face. I can only imagine this is due to them still being in the Thicketts, or maybe because Riley is possibly a pup (their ages are unknown, but Riley is smaller than both Bounce and Goo). I figured, rather than letting this get worse, they need to be in the Aventura, which means being with Goo. The whole boss pile will be reshuffled once Goo is in the mix anyway, right? The intro procedures have all been followed for quite some time now, since the beginning of July. They've all responded really well, we've been taking it slow through the steps and for the past 2-3 weeks the cages are only about 5-10cm apart and the substrates have been mixed. Goo sleeps in hammocks he didn't previously, because they're closer to the girls, and the girls pay him no attention apart from the odd bit of curiosity if they manage to slip out of their cage during a clean. In all honesty, we probably could have done face to face a lot sooner, but I'm so d**n nervous about it that I've been putting it off. I have the whole day off tomorrow, and with the girls behaviour figured it was time to bite the bullet. The plan is to intro them in the bathtub. No one has been in there before. Should I scatter a little mingled substrate on the bottom or would that cause confusion? I'll give them a sand bath before they go in (they've been sharing the same sand for months now). With me introing two to one, the plan is to intro one at a time, and then if that goes well do all three together. I'll be doing several successful tub intros before putting them in the same cage. I'll have a spray bottle and towel handy if things get too rough. d**n it's hard to grit my teeth when they scrap. It was hard enough leaving the girls to it last night Fingers crossed things go well and don't get too savage tomorrow! Goo has been on his own for years now, only having been with another degu as a pup, so I don't even know if he knows how to talk goo. He seems to absolutely love the girls, though, so he's the one I'm least worried about causing problems. I reckon it'll be Riley stirring it all up! I guess we will see, haha. Any further advice? Anything I haven't thought of or should watch out for?
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 5, 2018 15:24:50 GMT
I think you have a really good handle on the whole thing. If you are seeing Riley trying to stir things up that tells me that, 1. She is feeling REALLY good now!! To your absolute credit. Well done! And, 2. She sounds like an adolescent that is beginning to feel the power of her hormones and her power to challenge for a higher standing in the hierarchy of her community. If the second is true, she will likely challenge Goo as well, but this is a very natural part of degu life. They could have some moments that are pretty tense. However, being in the larger cage will help to mitigate that somewhat, because there is more space to hide or get away in. As well, the stresses of living together are just easier in a larger space. I think you are right to think that getting them into the larger cage is a timely thing.
I'm not sure what I think of the substrate in the bathtub . . . and yet . . . it might just be ingenious!! I wouldn't want to be cleaning it out, myself . . . and yet it might help to remind everyone of who they are meeting. It can't hurt. If you are willing, then go for it!
I'll be watching to see how things go!
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Post by morton235 on Sept 5, 2018 18:59:36 GMT
Thanks DC! Riley is doing great She's really confident now and has filled out tons ^^ She's averaging on 160-165g now, and she only gets weighed every other day cause she's doing so well The fighting is upsetting, it was awful having to sit there and listen to/watch them squabble, and I figure that will get more intense before it settles down what with the new order things will take My plan for the big cage is for them to have food, water bottles and wheels available on both levels, as well as multiple sleeping places on each level, so that if they need space from each other there's no reason they might be forced into the same space by need. I'll be getting a tic tac wheel soon as well so that should hopefully help ease any tension. But you never know, there might be none and they may all instantly get on as if they've always been together. I can hope, right? ^^'' One thing I've been told regarding food in a colony. Is it true that the alpha eats first? So adding more bowls would upset the balance, as two goos could eat at the same time and there wouldn't be a clear alpha? I have to say, I've never noticed Bounce always eating before Riley, or visa versa. Would adding more bowls be an issue when they're all eventually in the same cage? :S Ahaha, I don't mind cleaning the tub out. It'll be a messy job, but anything that might make the intros go more smoothly will be worth it! ^^' Can't wait for my husband to see me throwing dirty substrate complete with goo raisins into the tub, ahahaha! XD
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Post by winic1 on Sept 5, 2018 20:08:18 GMT
No, the alpha-food-thing is not right.
Best is to have as many food bowls as you have degus, and put them in different places in the cage, so everybody can eat when they want to without having to share or fight for the right.
I I have two goos, we do one or two big piles of hay (we gave up on a hay rack or bowl, they just threw it everywhere anyway), two bowls of pellets, two to three bowls of forage, in two separate places plus the extras wherever they seem to make sense. When I give dried veggies, I just toss them all over the cage, across different levels, so they have to actually search and forage for them like in nature. Gives them something to do that's a more natural activity. Seed mix I put in small bowls, again, one for each and on separate places/levels, to make sure they each get their fair share, as one is a hoarder and one is a muncher, so while one was eating the other was gathering up and hiding it all. When it was three goos, we did three of each plus sometimes a spare.
They will eat from each other's bowls at various times during the day. But they quickly learn, if they get chased away from one bowl, just go run to one of the other locations and eat from the bowl there. So, no fighting, and nobody getting thin because they don't get a chance to eat.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 5, 2018 20:37:39 GMT
Something to consider, Morton, is adding two more complete levels, like the base and second level that are built in with the cage. Replacing the smaller ledges that come with the cage for complete levels gives them that much more room to run and to potentially get away from each other. Once you have them introduced, having double the surface space in there will be a big bonus for all of them.
Or . . . have you already done that?
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Post by ntg on Sept 5, 2018 21:05:12 GMT
The two full levels may not work well depending on the size of their wheels - mine are 14 inches and the levels would be really narrow thanks to the way the liberta's bars are set up and the depth of the base! What I've done instead is put a low full level in 3/4s of the way up the bottom half of the cage and kept both half levels - bottom one 1/4 of the way up the cage and the other at normal height. Then both 14" wheels are in the top half but you can fit one of those wooden wheels from zooplus down the bottom that way! Here's an image to show you what I mean: Top half: Middle level: Bottom:
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Post by morton235 on Sept 6, 2018 13:33:12 GMT
So there I am, tensely gripping the water bottle, finger on the trigger, towel at the ready, staring down haunched over the side of the bath ready to bust in there is anything starts to look remotely dangerous. I'm pleased to report that my severe intensity was not necessary and I should have been nice and relaxed like my husband, haha. We just did the first intro, and it went as well as we could hope for! Bounce was first, and she ignored Goo for the most part, occasionally telling him off with a squalk if his sniffing and grooming got too intense. Goo responded well the majority of the time and backed off when he was told to. Then we intro'd Riley, who Goo was much more interested in. He was more relentless with his following but it was done at a curious pace rather than problematic chasing. Riley didn't appreciate the attention and told him so, but nothing ever came to blows apart from a tiny bit of low-key boxing between Goo and Bounce that lasted a few seconds. There was plenty of displeased squalks from the girls, and a little tail waggling from Goo, but that was it and by the end of it the squalks were minimal. Goo was desperate for the girls to groom him, tilting his head at them for them to nibble his chin. He looked so happy when Riley relented and gave him a quick nibble haha All three took sandbaths whilst being intro'd, which I take as being really positive with it being quite a vulnerable position. I'm so, so happy with how it went ^_^ And so relieved! I feel much more confident about the next introductions we do now In response to the shelving, my plan is to add quite large corner shelves and bridge them with the existing half levels of the aventura. I'll only likely be able to do this properly on one level though, since the Tic Tac wheel might be too big, but I've got my eye on some huge corner shelves that are 30cm x 50cm to add some more floor space PICTURES TO FOLLOW, because how can I not? My husband was in charge of the photo's so had to sit through me relentlessly pestering him with 'Nath! NATH! Omg look they're so cute! They're sitting together, take a picture! Omg Nath they're grooming each other! GROOMING! TAKE A PHOTO! Now try to get all three in the shot!' The downside to that is that he ignored my request to just send me the good ones and instead exacted revenge by sending me all 42 photos which I now have to sift through, ahaha XD
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Post by morton235 on Sept 6, 2018 14:31:13 GMT
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Post by misscatafer on Sept 6, 2018 15:02:40 GMT
Great news! Keep at it
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 6, 2018 15:42:06 GMT
WOOHOO!! Well done, and LOVED the photos!! Delighted with your account and the revenge avalanche of photos, ROFL!
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Post by bouncy on Sept 7, 2018 10:04:45 GMT
Riley is adorable peering up there!
I have a Liberta with very similar dimensions. I've put in a full level basement as part of the frame, another full level above the original ground floor, and two of those larger corner shelves you mentioned at the top. The full level I put in is on adjustable brackets, so I've put it a bit lower at the moment so there's still height below to stand upright, and have a tictac above. There's two there in total.
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Post by morton235 on Sept 25, 2018 17:26:40 GMT
ADVICE NEEDED Today was about the fourth introduction, and it went really badly, but not with who you'd think. Riley and Bounce had a big scrap Riley was quiet to begin with, it was their first time in the play pen and it was going well, but Riley only explored for about five minutes before coming to sit on my lap. She likes to sit and snuggle, often sitting on my arm or shoulder rather than run along the table her cage is on like Bounce does. After about 10 minutes, Bounce sought Riley out. Bounce displayed a lot of tail waggling, pushing with her rear end and mounting, and ended up urinating on her. There was a lot of noise, a lot of chasing and boxing, but also a lot of lunging from Riley. After trying to jump at the walls to get out of the pen Riley ran over to me and lept on to my lap and up my arm to get away. Goo was horrified by all of this, he sat stunned in a corner with his fur on end, but when Bounce went up to him and waggled her tail he just cautiously said hi and gave her a tiny groom, and she ignored him and continued to seek out and harass Riley. I put Mr Goo back in his cage and gave him a treat, and picked up Riley. I know interference is probably not for the best but the way she ran over and Goo's reaction was heartbreaking, it was so upsetting. I comforted her, then put her back in her cage. Despite my instinct to not put them in a space that's harder for me to get to, I put Bounce back in too since I remember reading about degu's who only fought when in a pen and wondered if they'd calm down in their cage. They didn't, and the fighting continued. Mr Goo got really stressed with all the noise and began shouting like he hasn't done since the girls arrived, and the whole thing has him freaked. He and Riley get on really well, and I wonder if he is concerned for her safety or whether that's just me putting human emotions on him. They're intelligent creatures, but I don't know if attributing that sort of in-depth emotion to them is feasible or not. This went on for about fifteen minutes, but has calmed down now. I haven't had the girls out to health check them fully, but from what I can see peering at them through the bars and looking at their furnishings, no ones drawn blood, or at least not any considerable amount. The girls are still in the thicketts, which doesn't help things. Nath thinks we should bung them all in the aventura together, however things between Goo and Bounce are still tenser than I'd like. Goo does listen to her when she tells him to back off, but he also returns pretty quickly which annoys her. Nath thinks that, since there's a struggle for dominance it seems, it'd be best to have Goo play a part in it since once they're all in together the pack would likely get reshuffled. I can see his point, since the dust hasn't settled yet and what's the point in waiting for it to settle only to stir it back up again. The Aventura would give the girls a ton more space and possibly relieve the tension there, but that space might be filled with the tension of living with Goo. I'm not really sure what to do for the best there. That being said, the interactions between Goo and the girls are pretty good and haven't come even close to what just happened. What are your thoughts? I've read the whole 'if you want degu's you need to be prepared to see them fight' thing but man, I wasn't quite prepared for that It was bloody awful and I felt so cruel just letting it happen
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Post by bouncy on Sept 25, 2018 17:56:34 GMT
By introducing Mr Goo, you're upsetting the natural hierarchy that the girls had already set. It may also be that there's some jealousy between the girls. I would back up a bit, stop the meetings for now, and let them get used to the scenario.
If it's any consolation, Spud and Sausage are going through this at the moment because of the pups that moved in yesterday. They both love the pups, but they're not sure now who the boss is. In the long run, as they grow, it may be that one of the pups becomes the alpha!
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Post by morton235 on Sept 25, 2018 19:37:57 GMT
Thanks Bouncy, I'll cool it with the intro's for now, but won't this just prolong their time in a smaller cage that could be adding to the stress? Especially since their response to Goo himself isn't too bad, and once they're in with Goo the hierarchy will change anyway. Or would waiting for the girls to sort their own issues out in the smaller cage first be better? If it would make a difference I could partition the aventura so the girls have more space, since they could have the bottom level and Goo could have the top. It'd mean Goo would only have half of what he's used to, which would suck, but if it'd help the girls I can just make sure I give Goo plenty of cuddles and pen time. The girls have been bickering on and off all evening, nothing as savage as it was before but still worse than their usual grumbles
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Post by bouncy on Sept 25, 2018 22:28:17 GMT
Housing in the partitioned Aventura would indeed be the best option, especially if you could work it so you had a vertical divider?
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 25, 2018 22:52:24 GMT
Can you look to see if you could find a second hand thickets that you could turn into an addition to the first, and thereby increasing their space for a time at least? Morton . . . I know you rescued these girls . . . did the vet have any idea of their ages? Could they be in their adolescent stage which is potentially from 6-18 months of age? Also . . . while you are correct that you were introducing them to Goo . . . they have to be in agreement on who is where in their hierarchy, just as Bouncy suggests. So . . . what Nath says definitely has some merit. Although . . . I'm going to suggest that they might still want more space than what is afforded in the Aventura. Which is a huge pain, I know. I'm not saying you must, but it is one of many routes you can think about.
Part of me thinks, yes, back off the intros for a bit . . . but I really don't know that that will change things, because the issues are between the girls at the moment. If there is jealousy, and believe me degus can and do feel jealousy, then maybe Bounce is feeling left out and is turning the cart over to try and give herself more leverage. I don't know. Degu drama . . . it's real!!
I will say that if you can sit with just the girls in the playpen, or in the bath, and interact with them, watching them, and taking dominant degu position between them, you might help settle things much more quickly. You being dominant goo means that you correct them every time you see behavior you don't like. They can tell each other off . . . box . . . waggle a tail, but chasing is a no . . . as is chasing that includes kickboxing. The weeing on each other and circling each other with wagging tails and the high pitched whine needs a stern warning, that they will respond to once they are convinced that you absolutely do mean business. How to you show that? LOUD NO!! I mean a good shout with growl in your voice. If that is ineffective, slap the cage bars, the side of the tub, the floor as you shout no. Force them to separate, THOUGH DON'T use your hand to do that. Have a towel to throw over, or thick gloves, or a sturdy piece of cardboard to carefully insert between, as well as you can use a squirt bottle full of water set to a hard stream NOT the mist or softer spray. Be consistent and don't let anything slip. Since dominant position seems to be up for grabs, go ahead and take it, and make them heed. It works!! Believe me. Not everyone feels comfortable doing it, but I think you can do it, and do it well!
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Post by morton235 on Sept 27, 2018 8:44:58 GMT
Finally been able to get on here and write a reply! Thanks for the responses guys.
The girls are still in the thicketts, but have calmed down massively and are back to their usual interactions. They're a little moody with each other for a few minutes but then snuggle down together, which is their norm.
I think my plan of action is to get them into the bottom half of the aventura, and to have just the girls out in the play pen for some run time. The bottom level they're going in has two wheels, and one is a 14" Tic Tac, so that should keep Bounce busy at the very least.
I'm going to give them a few days in the aventura to settle and see how things go, and if they're still calm then we'll see about some short 1-2-1's to test the water with Goo again. I do wonder if the play pen had anything to do with it though, perhaps it was the wrong choice to do an intro with all three in a completely new space, even if the previous bath intro's were going well.
I don't have any way of doing a vertical divider Bouncy, but I was thinking, if push comes to shove and Goo gets really vocal at not being able to see the girls, I can always temp house him in the thicketts whilst the girls use the bottom level of the aventura. He's more of a social Goo than a space Goo, so I can just make sure he gets plenty of attention and see how he goes, if those are steps that end up being necessary.
With the being 'dominant goo', that's an interesting idea but it's something I don't think I'd be able to enforce. My time off work finishes soon, so I won't be here to watch them all the time. I also wouldn't want to risk upsetting things more than they are now, with a 'dominant goo' who isn't around enough to actually be dominant and put the others in their place. Plus, if this isn't something I can maintain, surely it'd just lead to something kicking off later down the line when one of them decides they're the boss of everyone else?
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Post by bouncy on Sept 27, 2018 9:08:16 GMT
Assuming your divide will be at the access hatch to the next level, just make sure you have two layers of mesh, with perhaps 1cm in between - it'll help keep fingers and snoots intact
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Post by morton235 on Sept 27, 2018 9:41:17 GMT
I never thought of using mesh there, I thought it'd be harmful to degu toesies to walk on it. Mind you, I suppose it's only a tiny portion of the cage. My divide is a large rectangle of pet safe wood, I insert it between the layers and then cover it with bedding and stick a house on top to make sure no one can move it. One other thing I should mention in all this is Rileys health, which isn't great at the moment She was 170g about 10 days ago which was awesome, but weighed 130 thismorning which is horrible When she first started dropping I booked her in for her incisor trim as they'd grown faster than previously, and got it sorted. Her weight had quickly dropped from 170 to 145 over the two days between being able to get her in. Her weight dropped again the day after, but I figured it was due to mouth discomfort with the trim, and her weight began climbing daily after that. Four days after the trim her weight was still increasing, and she hit 150, but I noticed her tongue was poking to the side again. Naturally I had all kinds of horrified images of spurs and the like, since it's been three months since her molar trim, so booked her in to the vets who dealt with her molar issues before to get them checked on. Took her in the same day, and the vet opened her mouth to find that one of her bottom incisors had been completely missed in the trim and was absolutely huge! I usually check her teeth after each trim, so am just as frustrated with myself as I am with the vet. Riley's weight has dropped further since the issues with Bounce have kicked off, so I wonder if that has anything to do with it. She's still bright and active, and insists on running on her wheel despite clearly needing to hoard calories not burn them, but she is very thin so is back on the recovery mix which she is loving. In all honesty, typing it all out, I probably should have halted intro's whilst her health is like this to begin with. It's so easy to forget when she's so bright and bushy that she's actually not doing all too well right now.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 27, 2018 15:15:23 GMT
I'm so sorry, Morton! Don't beat yourself up, OK? You have had a focus on getting them together, for the good of their health, happiness, and a much better social situation, and THAT is great goal and a great focus! If you were completely blind to anything else, you wouldn't have caught the weight loss nor the dental issues that had arisen. You're doing well, love. You really are! I just want you to know that you have done awesome work with these sweet babies, and you need to give yourself grace, when you've done your best, as you absolutely have, but things don't go as you want. Would SO give you a BIG hug if I were there in person!!
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