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Post by morton235 on Dec 10, 2018 17:54:05 GMT
Thanks for the replies guys, it's we're all pretty disheartened over here at the minute. Everyone is fine, but a lot of work went into making today happen and it's such a blow for this to be the result. My husband has been commenting on how when he gets home, the goos are sat on their respective ledges side by side, the bars being the only thing stopping them from snuggling. And then during the intro's there has been a bit of chasing, but also a whole ton of snuggling and grooming and sharing space peacefully. During the bathtub intros, Goo always backed off in the end. It really felt like this was the time and the results suck I don't think Goo is rejecting Bounce (I hope not!!) His dogged pursuit of her is certainly alarming, and he doesn't react even anything remotely like that to Riley, but his grooming of her and snuggling with her suggest he doesn't hate her. Bounce has always been the dominant one with Riley, and from the beginning they were the two I was most worried about clashing if it turned out Goo was also of a dominant nature - originally I had pegged Bounce to be the alpha of the three. Bounce doesn't mind Goo being around unless he's bothering her, and Goo has other things that have held his focus so he's not 100% obsessive over Bounce (Riley, treats, wheel, exploring etc). He does go full speed at her though, luckily Bounce is a billion times more agile than Goo (who the pet sitter described as 'like that fat mouse from Cinderella' haha). This is such a knock though. I guess for now he can go back in the thicketts. It means taking all his furniture back out of the aventura and reinstating his ledges. God d**n it. This entire thing has been bloody exhausting. I guess we'll see how things look tomorrow, if they're calm enough we'll do a bathtub intro but if things need to be left without even those for a little while it'll have to be done. I just don't know how this will effect everything. If they're having trouble deciding who's boss, which is what I think is happening, then splitting them won't help. But I can't let Bounce get knocked around like that either. Agh, this is so frustrating! With Goo's eye, I thought it was a weird one! The main reason we haven't gone to the vets is because they would literally just be looking at a perfectly clear eyed degu - by the time we'd get there he'd be fine. It could be irritation from all the shavings kicked up during the scuffle. I guess I'll just watch out for it.
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Post by morton235 on Dec 10, 2018 18:00:10 GMT
Thanks re the white stuff - I'm glad others have experienced it and it sounds like it might just be a bit of dust or dirt or something. It's just a bit weird haha
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Post by morton235 on Dec 10, 2018 18:07:44 GMT
photos.app.goo.gl/WxqyWm9utGL2hVj26 I've put a link to their album, with some lovely photos of them all snuggled together. I wish it stayed like that Also put a photo of Goo's weird 'eye milk' for anyone interested, it's a bit blurry though.
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Post by savvy on Dec 10, 2018 18:09:55 GMT
Does anyone know how a degus tear ducts work. I vaguely recall seeing something where a vet was washing out a rabbits tear ducts and the water ran down the nasal passages because of how they are constructed. Could degus be similar and the white stuff actually disappeared down through the nose or throat.
I know this is probably out in left field or I'm maybe remembering it wrong, but is it possible?
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Post by morton235 on Dec 10, 2018 19:07:20 GMT
I wouldn't have thought so just because the white stuff never leaves his eye sockets, it doesn't even touch the fur around his eyes it's just around his eyes but on the inside, on the surface of his actual eyeball. The first few times I thought he'd just cleaned it off but after watching him it's disappearing on its own within a few minutes.
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Post by deguconvert on Dec 10, 2018 22:12:09 GMT
You know, it really isn't that unusual that fighting will kick a bit more vigorously for a while when a group being introduced is combined within a cage instead of the introductions area that was being used. This can escalate for several days and then decline and settle again. It does require close monitoring, but it doesn't necessarily mean all is lost when this happens. I might have jumped to a more serious conclusion than what you are actually seeing.
Have you ever used a good sturdy piece of cardboard to put between them when they are going at it, with a loud, authoritative "NO!!" at the same time? By doing that, letting them know that you will not let it continue and they must tow the line? (You taking top degu position in the colony, in essence.)
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Post by bouncy on Dec 11, 2018 11:00:03 GMT
I think DC is right - perhaps try the one cage thing again when you are home all day until hubby gets back and you can hand over. When I brought the pups back, everything was fine and happy for a few weeks, then they went through a few days of chasing and fighting (when Sneakygoo's ear got torn) whilst the pups were big enough to challenge. It all settled down.
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Post by morton235 on Dec 11, 2018 15:22:55 GMT
I've been a bit wary of the 'human being dominant goo' tactic because I'm worried what that'd mean if I wasn't here to enforce the rules, like if I went on holiday for a few weeks or something. The 'dominant goo' being absent would surely cause the others to try for the position, especially with both Goo and Bounce seemingly having dominant personalities.
I've done another bathtub intro today, and was worried that there would be an instant focus between Goo and Bounce, but there wasn't. They explored, nibbled the new toys etc, even groomed each other. Both Riley and Bounce let Goo hump them, although there were a few protests thrown in. They did have a chase and scrap, and one took fur from the other (I think Bounce got Goo but it was so fast Im not sure). I've found scabs on Goo from yesterday but they're very small. Rather than split them instantly I grit my teeth and let it play out, and ten minutes later they were all snuggling.
I let them snuggle for a bit, then took them straight from that positive encounter to the cage. There was more chasing from Goo, chasing Bounce. Riley got involved a few times to tell Goo off as well. Goo left Bounce alone to go snuggle Riley, and Bounce went on the offensive and jumped at him shoving her butt in his face before bouncing away again. He didn't give chase, and settled back down with Riley. Bounce has been settling at various points in the cage, every few minutes shifting closer to the pair. She's now settled right next to the heat mat where Goo and Riley are, and they've all been like that for about five minutes. It's peaceful, for now. Let's hope it lasts!
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Post by morton235 on Dec 11, 2018 16:44:55 GMT
Just had to split them again, they cuddled for a while, but then the chasing started again and they just formed what looked like the start of a 'ball of death'. Goo is sporting a bloodied ear, and Bounce won't let me check her at the minute so I'm unsure if she has wounds. It looked pretty scary though. I'm gonna leave them a while with no intros to calm down, then do longer timed bathtub intros before going to the cage again. It's really disappointing, but rushing things won't do anyone any favours. I just wish I knew what to do for the best. If, in a few days/weeks/months we come back to this point and they scrap like this again, isn't splitting them and trying later just prolonging it? Technically aren't I directly getting in the way of them hashing things out and deciding who's boss? It feels so, so brutal to leave them. I let a lot of things slide today, and I mean a lot - fur pulling, chasing, a few light scratches etc. Things previously would have made me split them. But gritting my teeth and holding out for them to decide hasn't worked, I was really worried they'd do some serious damage in the end
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Post by morton235 on Dec 11, 2018 17:40:05 GMT
Sorry Bouncy - only just seen you replied earlier. Things looked super heated when I split them, Goo has various bites and although Bounce looks fine, she won't let me check her but I'm assuming she has some too. It seemed to ramp up. The frustrating thing is that they can and do co-exist in the cage, they snuggle, they busy themselves with other things, it's just when they get going with the chasing it gets to a point where it becomes really obsessive and they really go at it. They were both throwing themselves around the cage really recklessly in an attempt to dodge/chase Is this something similar to what yours went through? I've bathed Goos ear, he doesn't mind in the slightest that it's bloodied, it doesn't seem to hurt him at all. Found a few more bites on him that should heal over nicely. The girls are currently having a spat since Goo has upset the balance. Whenever the girls tell each other off Goo gets really agitated and starts jumping/running along their side of the cage and bar chewing to get to them
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Post by moletteuk on Dec 11, 2018 18:44:41 GMT
I just wanted to offer a bit of encouragement, you are doing everthing right, the fur gang just haven't read the script, as usual. You've tried different meeting places, you've done regular meets, you've tried different lengths of time, you've tried leaving them to fight it out, and I think you held your nerve well and left them to scrap as long as possible and stopped before disaster struck. I know it's disheartening that so much time and effort is going in and you've hadn't had the result yet, but I still think a good result is possible. I think I would go back to attempting meets where you end on a good note for a while, let them lower the stress and heal up. It sounds a bit like there may be a miscommunication going on among the dominance becuase I'm a bit confused about Bounce allowing Goo to mount her, but Goo is still chasing her? Or have I misunderstood something?
While Goo is side by side with them he shouldn't be too lonely, so I think you have time to work on it slowly, if that is what you want to do. There is also no harm in thinking about a plan B if that would help you feel better about the situation.
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Post by morton235 on Dec 11, 2018 20:02:02 GMT
No Moletteuk, you've understood perfectly and I'm glad someone else is also confused by this! Bounce tells Goo off for mounting him but lately he has become more successful at doing it without a telling off, and in the tub today she was letting him mount her. She lets him do it for a minute or so, and then whirls and grumbles at him when she's had enough, and usually afterwards he either grooms her or she shouts at him and runs off. So, for me, it's been looking like progress has been made. She doesn't let him mount her all the time though. In the cage, she let him mount her once during todays in-cage intro. But then she gets all defensive and suddenly won't have any of it, when she's already been tolerating it for a good minute or so. So I guess Goo is chasing because she won't relent and let him mount her, which is fine one minute and not the next. At one point I was watching him groom her, then suddenly out of nowhere Bounce kicked off about it. I don't know what the issue was, they were all happily on the heat mat and she just went nuts and threw herself off, kicking up a fuss and noisy as anything. I mean, if he was grooming too hard she'd give her usual little 'chip' to say so, so it couldn't have been that. I just don't get it.
Thanks for the encouragement. It really is a big knock, to be honest, but I'm not ready to give up on them being a trio just yet! I did have a bit of a winge to my hubby about how all of this was for Goo, yet he's ended up with the crap end of the stick. Not only is he still alone, but he's in the thicketts rather than the aventura, which he doesn't seem to mind but isn't really the point. The neutering, the cage, the girls - all were for him. If this all ends with him still being a single goo it's gonna be a huge hit for me. He would be living a single life in half of the space that he was meant to be in (he'd get half of the aventura). Giving the girls up wouldn't be an option, so plan B would be Goo living in the top of the aventura with the giris on the bottom, although that does mean Goo won't be able to see them through the bars, which does bother me.
Sigh. I guess I've still got a few tricks up my sleeve though. I'm going to see if I can lower the height of the table his thicketts is on to bring it directly level with the base of the girls cage, so they line up (he's a few inches higher). THEN! Then I'm gonna whack some heat pads next to each other in their respective cages. Let's see them try to resist those bad boys! Be warm, sit next to each other, and look at each other whilst experiencing warm fuzzy times, darn you! At least then it's still positive association even if they're not in an intro. They do have ledges that are perfectly level with each other, that they like to sit on so they're close to eachother. It's just so sad seeing them want to be together, but also not. Sad, and very confusing and frustrating!
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Post by deguconvert on Dec 11, 2018 22:49:58 GMT
Space can be a really big issue for degus . . . and I am wondering if the tub feels huge, or at least lots of head room LOL, but the Aventura feels smaller and so stresses might be building more? It is entirely possible it has nothing to do with it, but I am wondering.
Another thought, what do you put into the tub with them? Are they items out of the Aventura, or are they things you keep only for the intros in the tub?
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Post by bouncy on Dec 12, 2018 9:31:28 GMT
Keep going hun, you really are doing well! Yes, mine went through a phase of tearing through the cage. Sometimes it was the original two, other times it involved the pups. Even now, when they're out running, one will happily stroll towards a tube entrance just as another is emerging, and they'll both freak each other out jumping 3' into the air and scarpering before they realise what happened. Half an hour later, they'd be heaped together snoozing.
Like Molette, I still think there's positive behaviour - perhaps Goo is being too touchy feely wanting attention and Bounce is just saying "for crying out loud, go do your own thing for a bit! You're driving me crazy, so go spend some time in your man shed or something".
I've not read anything here that says to me that they'll never be together, I think you're very close x
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Post by moletteuk on Dec 12, 2018 17:00:40 GMT
That does seem a bit odd, but it's a good if she is prepared to submit psychologically, and only has either a physical problem accepting the humping/ grooming etc or is getting annoyed at the length of time or frequency. See if you can pick up any more pattern to her acceptance and then rejection of him. I would think this is just a slim chance, but you don't see any signs of pain when he humps her or if he puts weight on her when he grooms her?
Try not to worry about Mr Goo for now, he has got the company of the girls close by, he gets to meet them (and hump them) pretty often, I'm sure he's OK for now. I think the idea of side by side heat pads is a great one.
Did I already mention about putting an extra level in the aventura and then splitting that so that they have a side by side meeting place? You could potentially tack on the thickets too. You do have options for the future.
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Post by morton235 on Dec 13, 2018 22:52:50 GMT
The items they have in with the tub/pen intros are items from each of their respective cages, so aren't 'outside of cage only' toys. The avenutra also has added levels on, albeit not full levels, but here are plenty of additional ledges plus hammocks and things to make use of the space (I hate big chunks of empty 'loft' space haha). I've not done another intro yet but am planning on doing one tomorrow in the tub if the goos are all agreeable, but I'm really not sure if another meet so soon is a good idea, or if it's exactly what's needed - I'm so torn! Since the cage intro, behaviour in their respective cages has changed. Mr Goo is very upset at having been split, and is incredibly vocal about it. He shouts almost non-stop all day He also is very agitated by any disagreements between the girls, and runs up and down the length of the side of the cage that meets with the girls, shouting, bar chewing and digging furiously at the ground. Riley is always on the back foot in the disagreements, which has ramped up in frequency since the cage intro. Bounce shoves her butt in her face and wags her tail at her, when all Riley wants to do is chill out. I had to shut the door and walk away from it all earlier, because the behaviour between the girls and with Goo being so adjitated it just got really upsetting So I moved Goos cage further from the girls, put cardboard between them so he couldn't see them, switched the light off and shut the door With the girls, I trust they will work it out. But with Goo I don't think he knows that - he's been on his own for so long and was bullied by other degu's as a pup, so I don't know if he understands what was happening. He was so distressed I tried to calm him down and get him out for snuggles, but he wouldn't have it. He accepted scratches, but as soon as the girls vocalised their annoyance with each other he'd bolt straight to their side of the cage again and start shouting. He has mostly calmed down now, but I don't know if that's just because the girls have settled and it's night or what. I really don't know what to do for the best, whether the cardboard and distance will help or make things worse. It certainly won't help with intros, but having Goo be so stressed isn't good for anyone
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Post by bouncy on Dec 14, 2018 8:56:31 GMT
Awwwww Mr Goo just wants a fluffy cuddle! How long has he been alone? I'd try the intro in the tub. It may be that his agitation makes him more likely to submit. I guess Bounce is telling Riley off, having become so protective of her over their bad time. You're living with goos with issues, but you'll get there
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Post by morton235 on Dec 14, 2018 9:45:42 GMT
Goo has been alone since he was very young. I don't remember much about it, I remember him being bullied and being ill but not in detail. He had to be hand fed as he lost a lot of weight, and the other goos wouldn't let him eat. From asking about it, my friend remembers him being sat separately from the other goos when they were in a pile, and him being all alone in a corner or something. So for him, he's been on his own for all but the first few months of his life, and he's 3-4 years old now. He's always desperately sought companionship though. I remember him making a bond with a rabbit that was being looked after there, and they used to both sit snuggled through the bars. She was mean 'un, too! So it was so sweet to see her having at least made a friend with Goo, even though she was a madam and hated people haha. I have to admit, she scared me a fair bit, haha! Goo seems a lot calmer today, and so do the girls. So I think I'll do a tub intro and see how it goes I've figured a way to make the heatpads in the respective cages level so I'll do that as well. Do dominant Goos have a say in the spats of their subortinates? Could he be trying to tell them that they arguing isn't acceptable? Or is he just freaking out because he doesn't have any experience being in a colony and seeing/hearing disputes? I'm worried he thinks Riley is being attacked or something. But he's never reacted like that when they've had tiffs in the pen/tub. This intense interest/focus is entirely new since the cage intro.
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Post by bouncy on Dec 14, 2018 9:56:46 GMT
Being inside an enclosed space can alter the behaviour. I'm wondering if they see him as the intruder, and Riley is happy to have another friend, but Bounce is telling her off for cuddling with the invader. I suspect it's their background - Mr G desperate for friends, Riley happy to be with anyone not ill-treating her, and Bounce either being protective of Riley or resentful over her defection.
Dominant goos believe they should have a say in anything and everything, so it's definitely Bounce that requires the help here. The other two are just happy to go with the flow!
There is so much potential for happiness there, I hope you keep going x
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Post by moletteuk on Dec 16, 2018 10:58:13 GMT
Could he be trying to tell them that they arguing isn't acceptable? Or is he just freaking out because he doesn't have any experience being in a colony and seeing/hearing disputes? I'm worried he thinks Riley is being attacked or something. But he's never reacted like that when they've had tiffs in the pen/tub. This intense interest/focus is entirely new since the cage intro. These are all viable theories, I can only say keep watching and see what you can figure out. Hopefully with a bit more time side by side Mr Goo will calm down a bit. Degus with a difficult start, or lacking in goo ettiquette or with personality quirks can present difficulties for intros. Test you theories any way you can think to, be imaginative in trying different things, sometimes it just takes a little leap into the unknown to get where you want to be.
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