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Post by morton235 on Dec 28, 2018 22:15:00 GMT
I've had to split the girls The second Riley goes back into the cage, Bounce is on her. They're not making a rolling ball of death, but Bounce is going at her with intent and Riley is terrified. Riley threw herself out of the cage when I opened it Bounce is now in the top half of the aventura as an isolation pen. I'm hoping that a night without Riley will calm her down, but I don't know. I really didn't want to split them at all, I'm afraid that it'll make it harder for Bounce to not react badly to Riley, but I don't know what else to do
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Post by deguconvert on Dec 28, 2018 23:20:48 GMT
Just so you know . . . height can also denote dominance, so that could increase Bounce's quest for dominance. She seems to be quite determined, so top or bottom may not make a difference . . . but just be aware that it could make things more extreme.
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Post by morton235 on Dec 29, 2018 0:05:19 GMT
Wtaf. Thanks for the heads up, as scary as the news is I appreciate it. I'll put her in the bottom level, just in case. Jesus bloody christ I feel so out of my depth with her, she's just so strong willed I've switched them over. Bounce doesn't seem to enjoy isolation, and was keen to be moved back down with Riley, but after a few minutes was flying at her again. They're still not doing the rolling ball of death or anything, but she's still not put off by any sprays from the bottle and I'm fairly confident that if I left her with Riley in her current state of mind she'd draw blood
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Post by ntg on Dec 29, 2018 0:14:06 GMT
Just a thought, but would Riley and Mr Goo happily live together? For now ypu could introduce those to create a happy pairing and then work on Bounce if she seems to be the one who is being particularly combatative out of the three and see if the isolation might make her more agreeable with getting along with everyone.
I don't know if anybody else agrees with that suggestion though?
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Post by savvy on Dec 29, 2018 2:34:32 GMT
I'd give it a try, it may reinforce to Bounce that she's going to miss out if she doesn't curb her temper.
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Post by deguconvert on Dec 29, 2018 7:58:46 GMT
I support it as well. There have been situations in the past with different members where we have recommended isolation for the offending and out of control goo. Only . . . I tend to recommend complete isolation for a day or two. In a room where the degu cannot see, hear, or smell the other degus, and is without contact with their humans either, except for the purpose of food and water, and the occasional wellness check. Rarely, but it has been done, a degu may be isolated for up to four days . . . but this is not recommended unless all else has utterly failed and even the short one to two day isolations have done nothing. It sounds cruel, but it is no less than would happen in the wild where a degu has been chased out of the colony to fend for itself, but without the predators and dangers of being alone that would be present in the wild.
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Post by bouncy on Dec 29, 2018 10:19:07 GMT
This sounds just like Spidey when I brought Squidgy back with me. After a year, I had to relent.
Spidey still goes mental at his cagemates. Usually, the goomeister (me) is enough, but he also gets timeout. For this, I put him in the travel case, then put him on a stool in front of the Liberta. That way, he can see the others having fun, they can relax, and he becomes very chastened. It may take a couple of hours, or the whole day before he goes back in with the others.
Part of me is wondering if you should put Goo and Riley together anyway, but then put Bounce in the carry case?
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Post by moletteuk on Dec 29, 2018 12:03:55 GMT
Have the issues between Bounce and Riley been gradually escalating since Riley's health has improved? I suppose it's a case of weighing up the balance of power and long term chances of everything. Putting Riley and Mr Goo together you should have two happy goos guaranteed, I'm just wondering if together Goo and Riley could at some point keep Bounce in check or whether Bounce is more likely to be left alone with this arrangement. I do think that her response to isolation is a good way forward for getting her to integrate. Are Bounce and Riley destined to have long term issues even if Goo weren't a factor?
Don't feel bad about Bounce not accepting your top goo status. My Flossie never accepted my dominance, I would blow in her face and she would just flatten her ear and stare at me and then continue with whatever she was doing as soon as I was a few paces away.
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Post by morton235 on Dec 30, 2018 22:37:51 GMT
Thanks so much for the advice guys - I've been checking in regularly but haven't actually had any time to reply! It looks like we were all on the same page, my husband and I were thinking the exact same re Goo and Riley, and I'm so incredibly happy to say that after some more intro's they have spent the entire evening in the top half of the aventura together with no issues They are quite the pair. There's been a little boxing and telling off, but nothing unusual for a new pairing. It's actually great to see Riley being confident! There is none of that intense stalking behaviour that Bounce was displaying from Goo, and Riley is much more settled (although a little possessive of her wheel!) I do feel terribly bad for Bounce. I mean, I know she has no one to blame but herself but she looks so darn miserable She's been bar chewing a lot and has grumbled at me a couple of times when I've gone in to say hi. It must be horrible being a lone goo. I could cope with Mr Goo being on his own more than Bounce, because it's practically all he's known since a baby, but Bounce is used to having someone with her and I think she's really feeling that loss. Or maybe I'm just humanising her. The isolation points are really interesting. I'm hoping that Bounce being on her own will chill her out a bit. Sadly the only carrier I have is plastic, and Bounce is a crazy power-chewer, haha. I could look around for a cheap, barred hamster cage though? Mind you, the base would still be plastic. What sort of carriers do you guys use? Once Riley/Goo are settled I am planning to move them downstairs in the aventura, and Bounce next door into the thickets so they can see each other. So the same set up as Goo, but with a different goo! We did consider Rileys improved health in Bounce's behaviour. From what we can figure, Bounce hasn't been challenged for anything in a good long while - Riley would have had to be in a weakened condition for some time to get to the state she arrived in, not to mention her long recovery, and Bounce will have gotten first pick of whatever she wanted. I think Riley becoming more confident in her own abilities has a part to play, but Goo is the main problem. I think all that chasing around he did with Bounce really rocked her, and she wants to keep her position as alpha. The first time the girls ever fought, it was in a play pen with Goo and was Bounce flying at Riley. And then eventually after each intro Bounce started to instantly harass Riley around the cage, starting small but looking back it gradually ramped up, until she started pre-empting my intro routine and began harassing her around the cage when the sand bath was put in, only ramping it up to draw blood. I think maybe, because she feels so threatened by Goo, it's a 'Hey don't forget that I'M STILL BOSS OF YOU!' With Goo himself, she is still dominant yet will occassionally let him mount her. God knows what that's supposed to mean, haha. I'm glad I'm not the only one with a power hungry degu who doesn't accept my dominance, haha! Bounce was just infuriating, she'd just be straight back at her a minute later. If I left the room she was straight over but as soon as I came back she was the other end of the cage like 'not touching, can't get mad!' With the isolation, how long do you think I should leave it before attempting a re-introduction? I want Riley and Goo to have a decent bond, but don't want to leave Bounce on her own for too long.
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Post by bouncy on Dec 31, 2018 0:37:08 GMT
Well done!
Ok, starting point has to be Bounce and her behaviour. Let her calm down and look like she's remorseful before trying any introduction.
Is there any way you can take the top of the Aventura off and place it side by side? It's going to be the best indication of behaviour. I know it'll make gooman space tight, but it will hopefully be short term.
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Post by misscatafer on Dec 31, 2018 0:47:49 GMT
Good news that Riley and Goo are settling in. I think using the thickets cage for Bounce is a sensible option... She will have more space and you can put the cages side by side instead of top & bottom as this usually influences aggression. I've only ever had the isolate once and that was when we had both groups break through to each other within the cage resulting in absolute chaos. I put Toby in the playpen, the sisters were in one half of the cage each and Boo was in the plastic travel case as she was so injured.
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Post by morton235 on Jan 4, 2019 13:44:33 GMT
Thanks guys. I've had zero time for goo stuff these past few days, so Bounce has been stewing on her own for a bit. She isn't vocal about it like how Goo was on his own, but she does seem bored. She doesn't use her wheel or chew as much as she did before. Any and all attempts to provide her with some scritches have failed miserably, but to be fair that's nothing new as Bounce isn't a people goo. I've given her more toys, but they're just 'stuff', and she's not really interested. Mr Goo and Riley are getting on like a dream, and Riley seems to be much more settled and confident with this pairing than she ever did with Bounce (which feels so mean to say!) The pair are rather happy together There's a few small signs of dominance from each of them, with Goo it's going up to her and wagging his tail at her but all she does is give a little squalk at him and be scampers away instantly, and with Riley she scent marks him a lot, resulting in him being quite a smelly goo atm! Neither seem too bothered by the others behaviour, and Riley seems to see 'aggro Goo' as a slight annoyance rather than something to be afraid of like she was with Bounce. Goo is happy as hell, he loves grooming and snuggling her, it's lovely to see him so happy. I have a day off tomorrow, so I'll be moving Bounce into the thicketts and moving Goo and Riley into the bottom half of the Aventura so they can all see each other, so the same set up as I had for lone Mr Goo but with a degu switch around! I'm really hoping that Bounce can be reintroduced to them, and that it doesn't break the bond Riley and Goo are building. I'm also worried that Mr Goo will not tolerate Bounce after how she's treated the both of them, he used to get so stressed out when Bounce was going after Riley and he was in the Thicketts. But I guess we will see. Not looking forward to more intros! Catafer - Oh goodness! I can't even imagine the nightmare of having two sides of a split cage managing to get into each others pens! I hope your goos weren't too badly injured
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Post by bouncy on Jan 4, 2019 19:34:13 GMT
Is there any reason why you couldn't give Goo and Riley the whole cage? Once Bounce can see that space isn't an issue, she may be more willing to accept a group?
It's hardly believable that Riley now appears to be the alpha! She's come a long way!
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Post by morton235 on Jan 5, 2019 8:37:06 GMT
Every intro as a three has been with access to the whole cage, it's only pairs I've halved it for. The only reason I'm still using halves is because if the intro doesn't work as a three it'd mean the cage being halved, and having Goo and Riley in one half and Bounce in the other. I'd love for them to have the full cage, but I'm worried that if they get used to it there might be conflict when pushed into smaller quarters if the worst should happen and the intro completely fails.
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Post by bouncy on Jan 5, 2019 9:25:46 GMT
Fair one! Although, are you now tempted to leave it now as Goo and Riley?
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Post by morton235 on Jan 5, 2019 12:06:14 GMT
Aghh, SO tempted!! But I feel it'd be really unfair to Bounce not to try. I'd really, really hate for her to end up a lone goo. If she can't be integrated back I'd rather try and re-home her to other goos than keep her single, but given her behaviour finding a suitable home willing to tackle her would probably be just as hard I wonder if she's better in a pair than a group, and whether a female pup would be a good match for her? Mind you, once said pup goes through her teen phase it might push Bounce over the edge like how introing Goo has. I'm hoping it doesn't have to come to that, she's part of the family and I'd hate to see her leave, even if it was what's best for her. I just want three happy goos!
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Post by bouncy on Jan 5, 2019 13:37:47 GMT
Sorry, I didn't mean give up on Bounce, it was as you say - Bounce seems to be the odd one out now. Having said that, given the mum/pup theory from before, it's possible Bounce is going through her teenage angst right now? She may still mellow
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Post by morton235 on Jan 5, 2019 13:58:49 GMT
To me, Bounce looks far too big to be going through a teen phase - she's only slightly smaller than Goo and he's four this year. And even then I suspect she only looks smaller because she's much more slender where as Goo is chunky. Either way I hope she chills out and no one holds any grudges. I'm just cleaning out the cages atm so it'll be interesting to see how they all react being able to see each other after the switch around.
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Post by moletteuk on Jan 5, 2019 15:43:17 GMT
They can be full grown but still in the hormonal phase and there is natural variation in size between degus. Hormonal phase can last until they are about 18 months but they are largely full grown at around 10 months. If she is Riley's sister I would suspect they would be over 18 months from the state Riley's teeth were in. But you never know!
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