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Post by morton235 on Dec 16, 2018 20:27:13 GMT
The heatpad ploy seems to be working well, they're currently settled all cozy on their respective pads and I think that's helping with positive association. Todays intro was really good. It was very brief, only about 20 minutes or so long, but it was really positive so wanted to end on a good note, and if doing shorter intros for a bit means it'll build better relations then I'm willing to do short but more frequent ones. There was shouting and chasing with Goo and Bounce, but no fur was pulled and it died down relatively quickly considering their previous encounters. Again, Bounce let Goo mount and hump her, but after about 15 seconds decided that she wanted none of it and threw herself away from him, whirling to shout and wag her tail at him. I may start filming bits of the intros to share, just to get everyones thoughts on it. As soon as I think I get a handle on the behaviour something happens to make me doubt my understanding of what is happening and it is maddening! Riley got a little involved with the spats too. Goo wanted to hump her, but she wouldn't let him (it's hit and miss, she goes through periods where it's a-ok and others where she puts her foot town). She boxed with Goo and lunged at him, but as soon as Bounce got close she was also lunging at her. Riley doesn't seem to care who starts an argument with her, she gets super defensive so anyone nearby is gonna get it! Riley and Bounce had a tiff, with Bounce aggressively scent marking Riley and chasing her around, and Riley whirling and shouting at her. Goo was interested, but a treat was holding his attention at the time. He did run over to them with said treat at one point, but just ate it close to the bickering ladies, haha. Things calmed down and Riley allowed Goo to groom her. Bounce chilled out on the heatmat, all nestled down on it whilst Goo was off exploring. The thing that gives me hope is that other things hold either attention, and they are comfortable being vulnerable around each other. Taking a sand bath, eating, slobbing out on the heat mat - none of those are 'terrified stressed animal' behaviours. And the grooming, too. The grooming is super cute. They don't seem to snuggle anymore though, which is sad. As soon as the ladies are still Goo is either grooming or trying to mount them, so it seems snuggling is off the table until Goo asserts himself. As usual after an intro, the girls had a spat when they went back in the cage. It's becoming the norm now that Bounce will savagely scent mark and chase Riley when they go back in, regardless of what I put in to distract everyone. I think she's just a bit insecure with Goo and is making sure Riley knows 100% who is boss out of the two of them. Worringly, Riley scent marked Bounce a few times, too! I've never seen her do that, in all the time they've been here. I guess it's something to keep an eye on. I wonder if Bounce is insecure because Riley has been too weak to challenge her for a long time (presuming so, with how Riley arrived), so having Goo around and having someone else assert themselves is new to her as she may not have ever had to defend her 'title'. I'm very pleased to report that Goo seems to have calmed down considerably when the girls have a tiff next door. He's interested and focused, but isn't shouting at them like he was. He still runs the length of the cage and digs to try and get to them, but there is still an improvement and I am very happy about that In other news, I seem to have had some sort of reaction to Goo grooming me. He was nibble grooming my hands this morning and he got a bit carried away and nibbled quite hard, enough to make me 'squeak' and pull away but not hard enough to break/damage the skin. Where he did it my finger almost immediately became swollen, red and itchy Has anyone had a reaction like that before? I've never had anything like this happen, and I'm no stranger to Goo being a little harsh. It's still a little swollen, but not as bad and it's not as red and itchy as before. Another thing to keep an eye on, I suppose! Bouncy - don't worry, we will keep going! Lord knows I'm in far too deep now, hahaha!! Days like today really give me hope Meanwhile, I'm super jel of my friend who is introing rats. They're far less complicated beings XD
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Post by morton235 on Dec 16, 2018 20:27:55 GMT
Oh gosh, sorry I rambled a bit there, hahaha! XD
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Post by deguconvert on Dec 16, 2018 23:30:23 GMT
Sounds good, Morton!!
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Post by bouncy on Dec 16, 2018 23:53:23 GMT
You're not rambling, you're providing details!
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Post by morton235 on Dec 17, 2018 22:36:49 GMT
A very sad and frustrating report today. I didn't do the intro I had planned because the girls were bickering and I wanted them all calm before putting them all together. I think Bounce knows my routine before the intro, because she seems to start asserting herself with Riley whenever I give them the sandbath I want them to take before taking them to the intro place. I think I'm gonna have to switch that up a bit. Bounce is becoming a big problem She is being far too dominant with Riley and has actually started drawing blood. I have just finished bathing a nasty bite to Rileys flank. It doesn't look infected, but is nasty, so I'm keeping a super close eye on it in case she needs antibiotics. Luckily Riley is dealing well with it, but then again I guess being permenantly on pain meds helps! As soon as I put Riley back Bounce was scenting and bothering her again, maybe because of the smell of the salt water. They're now snuggled on a heat mat together, but I really don't know how to feel about it all. The intros with Goo are massively upsetting the balance between the girls, and Bounce is taking things too far. With both Riley and Goo, she is drawing blood. Goo is very distressed by the fighting, and I think it's because he knows that Bounce is stepping over the line. When they're out, if the girls have a tiff Goo is straight there, so I think he is trying to protect Riley. I wonder if that's why he has such an issue and won't relent with his chasing of Bounce in the cage. I'm wondering more and more whether I need to take the 'dominant goo' position to sort this out. I really don't want to, but if it's the only way for everyone to co-exist then I will. I'm worried about a few things though. What happens if I go away for a week or two? Surely one of them would try to take top possition and then there'd be fighting whilst I was away, which would absolutely terrify me. And isn't there a potential for this making Bounce act out more because I'd be taking her status? Wouldn't she get frustrated? Wouldn't it take away the 'power' from them to sort out their own squabbles? Aagh, intros are just the most awful things! I'm feeling more and more like I'm out of my depth
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Post by hpdegus on Dec 17, 2018 23:23:40 GMT
Hey Morton!
I'm also going through frustrating, long intros. My boys also do very very well in the bathtub, but less well in the play area, and even worse in the same cage. At this point, I'm sort of resigned to not trying cage intros until hormone season is over. But I wanted to say that I get what you're going through, and best of luck!
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Post by bouncy on Dec 18, 2018 1:20:14 GMT
I think I'd stop intros for a week or so. Bounce is starting to hold a grudge, and goos can hold a longer than any psychotic bunny boiler. Otherwise, you may end up with Riley and Goo as a happy couple, and Bounce as the mad, rabid one.
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Post by misscatafer on Dec 18, 2018 9:13:43 GMT
You are doing great Morton, don't lose hope! When my girls were going through the terrible teens stage I had to assume top goo. Bella was a right madam when we first got her, she would nip through the bars and a few times I got bitten by her when I was topping up food or cleaning/rearranging the cage. She was very territorial and everybody was a challenge to her. She hated us entering her cage and was possessive of Harmione, her sister. Things got worse when I adopted Boo and tried (and failed) intros. Her and Harmione would be flying around the cage fighting and arguing and there was constant drama going on. My friends and family were scared of her and Rob wouldn't go near her either. Things had to change. I know a lot of what I am describing is completely normal behaviour for degus of that age, but it was still annoying! I used the spray bottle method. I kept it on top of the cage and used it a handful of times to break up arguments or to threaten Bella with it when she was being aggressive, teeth chattering at us or stalking my hands when I was in the cage. It was really effective and I'd always reccommend it to people. It didn't ruin our relationship with her at all, if anything it has strengthened it as she is now lovely. She even lets us touch her for a split second nowadays (before she realises what she is doing then runs off).
I haven't had to use the spray bottle for a good year...I got it out once during the summer this year after they had a particularly bad day of chasing and squealing, but just by putting it on top of the cage things calmed down. Sometimes Bella will still teeth chatter away to herself if she is in a bad mood or Harmione is getting strokes, a quick telling off stops it though.
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Post by morton235 on Dec 18, 2018 11:57:03 GMT
Thanks for the reassurance, guys. It helps It's good to know others are going through and persevering with the same thing, sounds like we're in exactly the same boat HP! I hope your goos also settle down soon. I think you're right in saying stop the intros for now Bouncy, I've also moved Goo's cage further away from the girls so he's not right next door. He's only about 20cm away, but it might reduce the tension a little and make Bounce feel like she has breathing room. Bounce is still regularly asserting herself with Riley, but it's not as savage as last night and she doesn't seem to be injuring her. I checked Rileys bite this morning and it looked really good, it didn't even need bathing and she was perfectly happy for me to prod and poke at it. That's actually really interesting, Catafer. I had assumed that if I took top goo it'd be a permanent possition, but actually, now that I think about it there's no reason things shouldn't calm down once everyone has lived together for a while and they're not strangers anymore. Bounce teeth chatters a lot, and I mean a lot a lot. So what sort of behaviours should I be punishing for? Teeth grinding, chasing, tail waging and shoving her rump in Rileys face, scenting her? Are any of those acceptable or should they all not be tolerated?
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Post by misscatafer on Dec 18, 2018 14:05:12 GMT
I chose the spray bottle as I have two groups in the same cage, so banging on the cage would have scared the other group and given confusing messages. I sprayed them if they were flying around the cage as this was very scary to witness and I could safely separate them. Over time I was able to recognise when they were at risk of getting to that stage of fighting so that's when I used to point the bottle at them and shout for them to pack it in. Once I did it and Hermione looked so upset that I then had her in my dressing gown for ages warming her back up lol. I sprayed Bella on one or two occasions when she would go for our hands through the bars or in the cage and this was enough to put a stop to that as she hated getting sprayed. See the trouble was she got so bad once I was with Boo, who lived above them at the time, stroking her, and one of my fingers was within reach of Bella and she bit me so hard it went like 3 quarters through my nail - absolute agony there was blood everywhere! Yes she was probably trying to get to Boo... But it couldn't go on. I used to spray them too when they would try and dig up/down to the other group. The teeth chattering I just scold her and tell her 'we have none of that in this house!` because before when she used to teeth chatter it would be the sign that she was gearing up to be a bully to everyone.
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Post by moletteuk on Dec 18, 2018 14:23:10 GMT
I think backing off and allowing them to settle down is the right move. Move Mr Goo closer again when you think they can tolerate it calmly.
I suspect that taking the dominant degu position isn't exactly how it works, think of it more that you are just asserting your right to be respected and taken notice of. In theory, once everything is settled you aren't really playing an active role in the heirarchy so it doesn't seem to upset things if you aren't there for a little while. As MissC says, you can have an escalating scale from yelling at them, knocking the cage, blowing in their face to the spray bottle. Just tell them off for minor incidents or chasing, only use the spray for real aggression and fighting.
It's not that unusual to react badly to degu scratches, bites and scrapes can get nastily infected. It's probably best to bathe in salt water or dettol or similar as soon as it happens if possible.
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Post by morton235 on Dec 18, 2018 22:14:59 GMT
Thanks for the advice guys. I started weighing in my opinion with the girls tonight with interesting results. Bounce is a bit taken aback by my involvement and immediately stops what she's doing to look at me with a '..did that just happen?' look haha. There has been less squabbling though, they seem to be taking notice. I think that's mainly because with the girls I've just been happy for them to get on with what they're doing with little interaction since they don't like being handled, Bounce inparticular, so with her me just going over to the cage and asking what's going on is enough for her to take notice if all she's doing is slightly badgering Riley. I imagine her stunned response will wear off pretty quickly so we will see what happens I guess!
I've introduced an 'interruption' noise that worked well with my rats before, as a sign that if they don't quit what they're doing there will be consequences. I'm hoping I don't end up having to use the spray bottle too much. I think out of them all Goo will be the most resistant to a telling off. The girls are flighty, Bounce especially, but Goo has been knee deep in human contact all his life, and we aren't strangers to a good stand off haha. He's robbed plenty of naughty food items that we've had heated discussions over, and he's as stubborn as they come when it comes to getting his own way.
I'm sure I'll be doing lots of reporting over the next few days haha!
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Post by misscatafer on Dec 18, 2018 23:20:07 GMT
See how you get on! Like I said, I've only actually sprayed them probably 5-6 times, maybe less, then I just had to hold the bottle and shout at them and that was enough to stop the unwanted behaviour. Bella is pretty placid with us nowadays. In the mornings when I feed them, she comes up to the door to say hello and will hover about whenever my hands are in the cage, but in a friendly, calm way, it is probably the most affection I will see from her. she is a very independent goo and I wouldn't change her personality for anything. Me and her have respect for one another and I do think the 'assuming top goo' helped us develop the relationship we have with her today. It's also useful to have that relationship in place for emergencies. last year she sustained a toe injury which needed daily nursing, and I was able to hold her without a fuss for these interventions and there was no aggression towards us whilst doing this.
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Post by deguconvert on Dec 19, 2018 0:11:03 GMT
Becoming top degu was the only thing that solved the conflicts between my boys, and it was useful several other times over the years with new degu additions to the colony.
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Post by morton235 on Dec 20, 2018 23:13:31 GMT
Make way, folks - top goo coming through! It's actually working ridiculously well! The girls are so much better with each other, although admittedly I don't know how much of that is due to them having a break from Goo. The girls are responding to the interruption noise really, really well. And if they ignore it, all I have to do is go over to the cage for them to take note and stop their bickering. Mr Goo, as predicted, is more stubborn. He will continue and I've needed to blow in his face a few times. He's a stubborn little git, he runs off a wee distance, stops, looks at me and then repeats the behaviour until he gets another 'puff', and then does it a few more times before calming down haha. His repetitions are decreasing though, and he's been noticeably calmer with the girls next door now that he's not allowed to continue his stressed rampage of bar chewing, tail wagging and shouting. One thing I'm struggling with for Goo are his shouts. Sometimes when he shouts he's not displaying any symptoms of aggression - it's not combined with the teeth grind, tail wag or bar chewing towards the girls. Sometimes he's just sat on the ledge closest to them and shouts, often in their direction. Is this aggression or is this normal communication? I don't want to punish him for the wrong thing, and don't mind the noise if it's not a problem behaviour that he's making to tell the girls who's boss or anything. It's a short, high pitched shout that he does repeatedly, but not fast paced like the alarm call. Shouting is how he generally gets my attention to come out of the cage for cuddles and things, so I don't want him to think he can't vocalise when he's lonely, but this shout does sound a bit different to his usual whiney 'come play with me' shout. Is this ok for him to be doing, or is he trying to cause problems?
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Post by bouncy on Dec 21, 2018 1:08:28 GMT
Is it like a bark or call? You never know, it may just be a "hey girls, where have you gone? I miss you!". If there's no evident aggression, and the girls aren't taking it as aggressive, I'd allow it.
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Post by deguconvert on Dec 21, 2018 5:58:16 GMT
It's also possible that due to his history of being alone and maybe not learning a whole lot of goo culture as a result, he might not be the most gifted or subtle of communicators. So . . . it could be that instead of saying, "Your ears are so curvy and alert, ready to hear any signs of danger. Your eyes so bright and large, ready to see any danger. Your coat so thick and lush . . . you are the most beautiful females ever!" Goo just throws, "HEY! BABES!! I WANT YOU!! NOW!"
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Post by moletteuk on Dec 21, 2018 11:39:20 GMT
Hahaha the power has gone to your head! I'm glad it's working for you. I think I would allow the shout too. Absolute ROFL at DC's degu chat up lines, so insightful!
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Post by bouncy on Dec 21, 2018 14:07:52 GMT
Absolute ROFL at DC's degu chat up lines, so insightful! Sounds like most blokes on a Saturday night!
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Post by morton235 on Dec 28, 2018 21:38:18 GMT
Things are not going well at all, here For little tiffs and slight bickerings, the girls will obey the noise/shout/spray bottle. But whenever the sand bath is introduced, Bounce goes off on a rampage. I've only given it to them twice since I took charge, and the first time ended with both of them being repeatedly soaked but they did eventually calm down, and this time I'm worried I'll have to split them. Bounce will not stop her relentless stalking and chasing of Riley, and Riley is terrified. They've both drawn a small amount of blood from each others ears, but so far no major damage. I've gone through the phases and have sprayed Bounce countless times, but she won't relent. The spray startles her, but that's about it - she's straight back at Riley a few minutes later. She's even started waiting until I leave the room to make her 'charge'. The chasing has been going on for the past few hours. Riley dives out of the cage on to me every time the door is opened, in an effort to escape, and has spent a good hour cuddled up in my fleece. I thought that the space might give Bounce some time to calm down, but it hasn't and as soon as I put Riley back she was hounding her again, straight on her. Riley is now cuddled in my fleece for a second time tonight, she's so scared of being in the cage with Bounce Riley and Goo have been calling to each other all night and I'm at a point where I think they're actually the better pairing, I just don't know how to handle Bounce and her behaviour! Any advice on dealing with a goo who won't relenquish dominance? She's really putting Riley through her paces and it's awful to see, I feel so cruel putting Riley back in with her when she's like this I don't think it helps that the girls are still in only half of the aventura - it has additional large shelves, but it's not the same as the full cage. The thing is, if this bonding with Goo doesn't work then Goo will need to live in the upper half, so I don't want to introduce the girls to the full cage and then have to reduce them to half, as surely that will only cause problems.
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