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Post by teemu on Aug 2, 2021 23:55:53 GMT
Afternoon, Im jumping to the end of the thread so sorry if there are duplications. Ive mainly had boys the past decade, my triplets were neutered and in Miguel and Pablos later years (10 - 11) we rescued a Mum (3) and 2 x daughters (1). The boys seemed to loose 5 years, they were bouncing about like teenagers and very loved up. Weve had 4 introductions in our clan and this was the smoothest. Miguel passed away at 11.5 surrounded by his groupies. Now we have much oestrogen in our household and tantrums, I miss the boys!!
Yeah, I think Pulla has been a lot more active after I got the girls. I still haven't been able to really get them to play nice with each other, but even just being in cages next to each other has perked him up a lot.
At the moment the situation is a bit rockier again, after some time getting back into the swing of things everyone is again a bit cranky at each other. Happily though, Suti isn't throwing fits after the meetings any more, which is at least a relief since it likely means the girls are less tense about their own social hierarchy.
The girls are all coming into their own now. They're all a lot braver and tamer than they were, say, a month ago. I seem to remember that the boys were similar; it took them a good while to actually warm up to handling and human presence in general, but afterwards they were so tame. Limppu and Suti both allow me to lift them from the cage (carefully and when they feel like it), and Posso also allows it if there's seeds on offer
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 3, 2021 3:24:01 GMT
All forward progression . . . for the most part . . . Teemu! They seem to have a penchant for two steps forward and a backward circle or two before going forward again. (For intros of course.) I can't imagine how annoying they would be if they were dogs and we were trying to walk them with that kind of walking pattern. LOL! The paths would be rather interesting though!!
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Post by klbishop on Aug 6, 2021 14:01:28 GMT
absolutely DC!! we did all the steps for a safe intro gradually over time, then i went to work for a day came home and the guys had chewed into the girls cage and were all cuddled up.... I panicked and checked everyone for blood and bruises... they were all happy!
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Post by teemu on Oct 13, 2021 17:41:21 GMT
Well, I figured I'd use this topic, since the other topic is about the girls fighting (which seems to have resolved itself, thankfully!) and this is more about the progress, or the lack of it, with Pulla and the girls.
So last time I tried to introduce them a few of days ago, everything went really well. Today, it didn't go so well again. Pulla was back to getting his weird angry fits and would go off at the girls at very random times. Not sure what causes this, but it made any kind of productive introduction pretty impossible. They did groom and interact peacefully, but Pulla started to get increasingly agitated without any reason I could perceive, and would just totally randomly decide that he had to slap someone, nip at them or just freak out. It's really strange. He acts as if someone did something, even though none of the girls have done anything different.
For example, Pulla would go to Suti, they'd stare at each other for a bit, and then Suti started grooming his face gently (I was watching closely, and there was no nipping or any other foul play involved), and Pulla would allow this (he's looking for those scritchings all the time) for a couple of seconds before freaking out, shouting, slapping Suti and acting as if she had somehow suddenly done something wrong. He acts as if he's suddenly panicking and/or getting really mad, and usually sprints away really high-strung.
He's done this before, but this time it was really pronounced. It almost feels like Pulla is somehow afraid of the girls, or like he's constantly feeling actually threatened by them, and it can come out at any moment randomly? I'm not sure why it is like this. One thing I'm wondering is whether or not it's partially due to me. He's super bonded to me, after all. After he had to be separated from Munkki, I am the only one who really interacts with him, and I interact with him a lot. He's spent a longer portion of his life bonding with me than he has with another degu, at this point. And I'm not a degu, I don't really demand the same kind of two-way hierarchy that another degu would. It feels like he might have actually kind of forgotten how to act around other degus, and he's nervous and can go off at them at any moment.
This might be kind of reaching, and maybe it's not like that at all, but I feel like there might be something there. If nothing else, he is, frankly, rather spoiled. He's very attached to me, but at the same time I doubt he considers himself submissive to me in any way. He's quick to vocalize any annoyance he might have with me, and he slaps my hand, nips me or otherwise doesn't hesitate to show it, either. I don't mean that he's generally angry or hostile, but rather that he expects to get cuddles, demands a lot of attention, and gets annoyed if it isn't given in the right way. And that, I feel, might have put him in a really bad spot to deal with a pack of degu girls that don't hesitate to push back at all...
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 13, 2021 18:35:02 GMT
teemu Hmmm . . . yes . . . there may be something to what you are saying, but I don't believe it is the whole thing. He certainly does sound like he is fearful of being hurt in some manner. Sort of like a human that has had deep hurts from others and so reacts/behaves in a manner that will put people off before they can actually be hurt by them. A . . . pre-emptive strike so to speak. I am wondering how it would be if you did multiple miniscule intros. Things that didn't last more than say . . . 3-5 minutes. Let him meet someone, let them have a bit of grooming and then scoop him up (in whatever way works for the two of you) and put him back in his cage. Maybe you could even let him have those 3 minutes at the beginning of the free time for the girls, and then give him another 3 minutes at the end of that free time? That might be too close to the first one, if he is unable to release that nervous energy quickly enough. Anyhow, my thought is, if he is able to have very brief and very positive interactions, maybe they can build up in his mind and then lead to longer times together. If you try this, I want to encourage you to be committed to a long passage of time for this, but able to move faster if that is what the Pulla and the girls begin to indicate. I hope I'm not making this hard to understand.
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Post by teemu on Oct 13, 2021 19:22:40 GMT
No, I can totally understand what you mean. It might be a good idea to do very short "Hellos" between him and the girls. Today, though, he seemed almost panicky to begin with, so I should probably have realized that today was a bad day for him right from the start and call it off. But I guess I just thought that they'd calm down after a bit.
But yes, I think you're also correct in the assessment that Pulla might be seriously traumatized. His brother Munkki (or his adopted brother) was... a bit of a problematic one, and I think this compounds a lot with the fact that whenever Pulla feels any kind of distress, he can count on me for easy comfort. So he's prone to freaking out when he actually has to deal with things, and he's afraid of being hurt and gets really worked up. I can very much see how it happens. He tenses up a bit suddenly, his tail starts twitching, and then he either runs away or throws one of the girls away and shouts.
It's kind of similar to an abandoned animal or a feral animal, if you've seen how wary they are, and how they can suddenly freak out over seemingly nothing. This is purely conjecture on my part, but I might suppose that Pulla's childhood might not have been all that safe. He was very, very small when I got him from the pet store (not under 5 weeks or anything, but still very young) and he had been separated from all his actual brothers and was with another young degu from a different litter. On top of that, these degus come from a breeder in Sweden, shipped in a travel cage. I don't think any degus like travel carriers, but all of my degus (who all have gone through the experience) absolutely HATE having to go into a small enclosed space of any kind, especially a carry cage.
So he's taken from his family, put in a scary cage with another degu that's really volatile, and then has to be separated even from him and only has the comfort of a creature that can't really be a pack mate. It would make sense if Pulla has a hard time dealing with many other degus, suddenly...
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 13, 2021 19:31:47 GMT
It very much could be!! One of our boys had traumatically lost a portion of his tail when a store clerk shut the cage door on it and clipped it off. He had been sweet tempered before that, but after, he did not trust humans at all! It took me some very concentrated daily work, lots of bites and blood, and determined patience over a three month stretch, to earn his trust and then teach him that humans can be good. Sounds like similar with with Pulla, only with other degus.
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Post by teemu on Oct 13, 2021 19:48:55 GMT
Oh, Munkki (Pulla's adoptive brother) had actually lost his tail in the store. Not on purpose, apparently it was a wheel accident, but I guess there is truth in there, in that pet stores, even when they're as good as can be, are just practically not going to be great environments for animals to stay in...
Well, ultimately I can't do anything but keep trying my best. I think it's a very good idea to go for very short "Hello" moments. I think it might also be a good idea to let him run around in the kitchen first, let him get his playtime in, and then take the girls out for their playtime, so that they'll have a couple of minutes of intersecting time before I bring Pulla home. See how that goes, then bring Pulla back for a bit of time at the end if it goes well, like you say.
Come to think of it, Pulla seemed a bit spooked by... something today. He was pretty skittery when I had him on my lap earlier and tried to run off. Maybe that should have been a warning sign.
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 14, 2021 10:25:00 GMT
He's probably missing some basic degu communication skills too.
Since you can tell his mood well, and see in his behaviour when he gets agitated, I would really trust and use that information to guide when is a good time to let him meet with the girls and when to whisk him quickly away.
My other idea would be to try some meets just with Posso. She has been the most receptive to Pulla and also a single other degu might be less threatening and overwhelming for him. BUT, this may put Posso's relationship with the other girls at risk again, so you might not want to do this, or could be a rod for your own back if they get along and both have difficulties with adding anyone else.
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Post by teemu on Oct 14, 2021 20:30:19 GMT
Yeah, it does look like he's quite often misinterpreting how the girls are, or just freaking out over nothing when the girls are trying to be friendly. He gets especially spooked if there's more than one of the girls nearby at once. It's a shame, especially since last time ALL of the girls, even Suti, were being really nice towards him, grooming him and not acting aggressive at all, other than pushing back AFTER he started getting mean. Even Suti seemed really open to him over these last two times, and everyone has just been coming up to him to inspect him, smell him, groom him etc. So at the moment it's really just Pulla that's hampering things, and I'll have to see how to overcome that.
I'm giving it a couple of days before I try again. Maybe try to monitor Pulla a bit to see if I can spot any differences in his demeanor from time to time.
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Post by teemu on Oct 14, 2021 20:34:46 GMT
Oh, I should note that one thing that I've definitely noticed is that their dynamic has changed. Pulla doesn't posture any more like he's trying to dominate the girls, and they don't fight like that with Suti. In fact, he seems to accept it without issue when Suti kind of passes him and pees on him at the same time without much fuss. All of the fighting was very defensive last time, or like a freak out, where he seems convinced the girls are trying to do something to him or something like that.
There were a lot of situations last time where Pulla lashed out at one of the girls, and then the girl would chase him and complain while Pulla ran away and looked really scared about it. I would often intervene when this started to happen and give him some breathing room. He's still bigger than any of them, but it really does feel like he's experiencing some serious anxiety about it.
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Post by teemu on Oct 18, 2021 16:31:31 GMT
I've tried to do a short visit a couple of times now, but it looks like something's really bothering Pulla now. He's really panicky as soon as the girls come in, like seriously ready to freak out. He's really tense and careful and actually full-on panics if any of the girls make any unexpected movements. It's actually rather concerning. He's acting like he really can't even understand what's going on and is now afraid that they're going to hunt him down or something. And none of the girls are actually *doing* anything to him until after he lashes out at them - and even then they only run after him and whine at him, like they're trying to tell him how that's not appropriate at all. And yet he's totally horrified of this.
There's some positive interactions as well, but it's really hard to get things in order when Pulla's just so absolutely ready to freak, which agitates the girls as well, and then everyone's angry and/or scared. It's a kind of a powderkeg situation, where Pulla's panic quickly breaks everything down....
At the same time, I don't think this can get any better if I just keep them separated for a long time, either. Pulla's not acting any more panicky than normal otherwise, so it doesn't feel like this is because of something else. At the moment, he's not really working well with Posso either. Although it does look like he's getting pretty well along with Limppu, since Limppu seems to radiate some kind of Small Harmless Friend energy that makes everyone like her. I'm wondering if I should try to ease him into this by just having him hang out with Limppu a bit.
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Post by teemu on Oct 18, 2021 19:15:57 GMT
Ah, no. That wasn't actually a good idea at all... although trying out Limppu and Pulla together did give me more insight into what's going on in Pulla's head.
When I took them to kitchen together, just to see if Pulla would be more at ease with just one, rather passive and placid girl, I swear he actually glanced around, as if making sure the others really weren't there, before he set upon Limppu and chased her around very angrily. Not totally violent or anything, it didn't look like he was attacking, but it was very much a "Get away! This is my place!" kind of a situation. He was obviously trying to drive her away as quickly as possible.
So in this light, it doesn't feel like Pulla's just afraid, it's more like he'd actually like to pick a fight and drive all the girls away, but usually he's very much outnumbered and the girls aren't small at all any more. So he chooses to panic and run instead. But now that he was alone with the smallest of them, he worked up the courage to run her off instead. He was very much on the offensive now.
I quickly stopped the situation after it became obvious that Pulla was absolutely detesting having to spend any time with them. He really does not seem to want company at this point...
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 18, 2021 19:21:47 GMT
HMMM! I'm not sure what to recommend.
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 19, 2021 10:54:47 GMT
How are the cages arranged now? Do they live side by side? I think at this point I would let things settle again and see what they can figure out living side by side. The only other thing occurring to me is that I don't think the kitchen is a neutral area, so you could think about intro location again.
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Post by teemu on Oct 19, 2021 12:00:50 GMT
The cages are side by side. Weirdly enough, Pulla interacts with the girls only very rarely when in cage. I would expect him to be gnawing at the bars and otherwise trying to express his dislike of them, but he doesn't even seem to notice them for the most part. Maybe it's because the girls' new cage is lower to the ground, so he can lord over them with his elevated position. Degus seem to express domination through a higher position, among other things. He does have a direct line of sight into their cage though, and Posso is often hanging around that area and staring at him through the bars. Pulla's pretty much behaving like he's already concluded that girls are stupid and he doesn't even care to look at them...
I also agree that the kitchen is probably too strongly associated as Pulla's territory, so intros won't work there. I did proof our bedroom a bit, and it should work as an intro area (although it is damned cold in the winter, will have to crank up the radiator a bit), so I'll try there when I pick things up again.
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Post by teemu on Nov 22, 2021 23:22:50 GMT
Well, we're back to trying to get Pulla and Posso to behave together. They share the same cage now, with just a dividing wall (and a sight blocker on the bottom level, where they can reach each other easily). So far, it seems to be going rather well! Pulla has chilled out after his hissy-fits earlier, and Posso seems to be rather willing to accommodate his weird behaviors. I've had them together in the bedroom a couple fo times, and there's never been an outright fight, and they groom each other and socialize a lot.
I've also lifted them to meet each other at their cage doors, to gauge their general reactions to the other approaching their home, and it's looked rather positive as well. After some initial trepidation, both have been more intrested than frightened or defensive. Both have groomed the other when they approach and neither seems to be aggressive at all. Now that Suti (and Limppu, but more so Suti) is in another room, they seem to be a lot less stressed out about getting acquainted.
There's a rather strange behavior that Pulla exhibits in the bedroom (when they're out playing together), but I think it fits his general social anxiety. There's been many situations where he starts running away from Posso, and Posso keeps running on his heels and chirping at him, as if she's worried or confused, and Pulla keeps escaping from her, until he suddenly seems to remember that oh, actually, this is that nice lady and maybe I should stop and socialize. I think his behavior has improved pretty nicely, though, and he just seems to be spooked pretty easily, rather than disliking Posso at all, so it's a very good sign.
Posso spends a lot of her time banging on the dividing cage wall from the second floor, where she can reach it. Considering how well they interact, I think it's more likely she wants to get to where Pulla is, or is just annoyed that the cage has been divided, rather than trying to display aggression at Pulla. I'm a bit hesitant about when I should allow them to visit each other for real, since Pulla can freak out pretty easily, but I've been removing the sight blocker for short periods of time, and Pulla always settles down and calms after the initial hesitation.
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 23, 2021 8:37:38 GMT
So . . . you've already done some face to face time with them?
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Post by teemu on Nov 23, 2021 10:45:54 GMT
Yeah, they've been face to face in my bedroom twice now. Both times went really well, after Pulla got over his anxiety. Lots of grooming, chirping, huddling together, mounting etc. No signs of aggression, though Posso is sometimes really forward about it. She sometimes does this weird thing where she wants to touch teeth with Pulla. She grabs his face, sniffs his mouth, pushes her own mouth against it and all that. Pulla is very confused about it, but does not really object as such.
I lift each of them to say hello to the other in the morning, in turn (Just holding the other on my hand, on the level of the cage door). They're always very pleased to see each other and groom together. My estimate is that they're not exactly pining to be together at the moment, but they are not opposed to associating at all.
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Post by teemu on Nov 24, 2021 19:33:41 GMT
Oh my gosh, Pulla was absolutely ridiculous today. Out of the blue, he suddenly decides that girls are very scary again and runs away from Posso and gets really agitated when she gets too close. No matter what Posso tried, the stupid boy would just not behave himself and things were getting all heated up... until I stepped in to provide emotional support. I literally held Pulla's hand, which was apparently enough emotional support for him to allow Posso to get close and start grooming him, after which he suddenly remembered that Posso is actually a very nice girl, and things might be alright after all.
They were inseparable for the rest of the playtime and mostly huddled together hugging. Pulla threatened to freak out again once or twice, but Posso is actually an amazing reconciler after she gets an in. Each time Pulla would tense up and start twitching, Posso would literally dive under him, make really loud consoling chirps and just start HUGGING him in this really sweet "You're alright, you're alright!" way. And Pulla would just sit there all confused for a moment, forget that he was supposed to freak out and start grooming her back.
It's really sweet, but gosh what a ridiculous man he is...
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