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Post by teemu on Nov 25, 2021 9:49:33 GMT
Well, since everything had been going rather well, and since they were very nicely friendly with each other this morning, I decided to just see how Pulla would react if I allowed Posso into his side of the cage. He was a bit tense, but seemed to get over the general shock of it rather quickly, and mostly seemed to sit and observe what she was doing. So at that point I decided to just bite the bullet and pull out the dividing wall. Now it's been a good while, and for the most part they're both just going around and exploring the larger cage. Pulla has mostly been running in Posso's wheel, and I haven't seen any squabbling. I'm watching the carefully, of course, but it's really looking like Pulla might be getting over his hangups!
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Post by teemu on Nov 25, 2021 13:23:37 GMT
It's been almost 4 hours at this point, and things are going well! There's been some squabbling, and a couple of situations where Pulla has gotten spooked due to thinking he's cornered, but there has been absolutely no serious conflict between them, and they're behaving really healthily, from what I can see. Doing their normal stuff and then coming together to groom, socialize and get used to each other. It's looking good enough that I think I'll keep this arrangement going at all times when I'm at home and can keep an eye on them. And if it keeps going this well, then... who knows, maybe they'll just share the cage permanently soon? Very exciting!
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Post by teemu on Nov 25, 2021 19:52:55 GMT
Well, they've been together all day, other than when I went to pick up our dog from the vet (she had a dental operation), and they've gotten along really well. I do see some basic hierarchy settling, like both are attempting to hump each other (although Pulla is likely doing it just for the sake of doing it...) and sometimes they get a bit chatty, but they're doing so well! I allowed them to be together while I was in the kitchen with Limppu and Suti, and checked on them every ten minutes or so. Each time I came to look, they were either doing their regular things, or they were hugging it out somewhere in the cage. Pulla has been a bit annoyed sometimes with the energetic girl hassling his nap time, but even that just seems very good: Pulla's just napping and not even caring about another degu in the cage! And when she bothers him, he just whines a bit about it, maybe pushes her a bit and then begrudgingly grooms her. It very much looks like both are fine with the idea of sharing the cage, even if they're still having to figure out the praticals.
I'm almost tempted to just let them spend the night together. But at the same time, I feel like it's still for the best to call it for the night and get back to it tomorrow.
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 25, 2021 20:05:13 GMT
I would say I'm equally divided on the idea of leaving them and parting them. It's just really hard to know how it may go, because either choice both have good and bad potentials that I think are pretty balanced. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful with this, Teemu.
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Post by teemu on Nov 25, 2021 22:32:47 GMT
Oh no, they're just huddled together in Pulla's nest now, sleeping in a pile of toilet paper. They weren't sleeping in the same place before, so this is really quite something. There's no way I can separate them for the night any more. I'll just have to hope it goes well. They're just so at ease with each other now...
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 26, 2021 11:36:39 GMT
So exciting, I hope all went well through the night.
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Post by teemu on Nov 26, 2021 13:48:24 GMT
I did end up separating them when I went to sleep after all. Not because I doubted them being able to handle it, but mostly because Pulla was honestly starting to look a bit overwhelmed. He wanted to sleep like the potato he is, but Posso seemed to be so excited about having a cagemate that she would huddle down for a bit, then start running around again and come to pester Pulla to play with her. So I figured it might be for the best to let Pulla sleep in peace and divided the cage for the wee hours of the night. No one seemed to really mind this, and Posso settled down too afterwards. I took the wall off today again, and they were almost overjoyed about it and ran over to groom each other again. They've picked up as if nothing's changed and everything is looking very chill and almost routine at this point Funny observation: even though it's the exact same food and water, both are very intrested to sample from each other's feeding stations. The only real complaining has happened when they interrupt each other's feeding, but even that's been very minor and has not resulted in any actual conflict. I'm really proud of the way Pulla seems to have realized that someone can be a bit miffed at him, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're planning to murder him. He would have been absolutely mortified earlier if someone had slapped him away. Now he seems to realize that there's no ill will there, just annoyance.
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Post by teemu on Nov 26, 2021 18:55:21 GMT
Today has been an even better day, all things considered! They're not as head-over-heels for it, which is good since it means that they're calmer about being together. Posso has let Pulla sleep when he feels like it and Pulla hasn't been humping Posso as mercilessly. Pulla is making great big strides in socializing in general. I even witnessed him calmly sitting with Posso in a spot where he freaked just yesterday from feeling like he'd been cornered. They do all the regular degu things, sometimes together and sometimes on their own, as if they'd been sharing a cage for a long time. It's frankly amazing how naturally it goes now that they've decided to accept the situation.
The only thing that has slightly perturbed them is that Suti is in heat and screams bloody murder from the adjacent room, which has them perking up from time to time. But this honestly seems like a done deal, with how well it's working. I will of course keep an eye on them, but I don't think I need to be especially vigilant unless they start showing signs of having some issues.
I think Posso's history with having to manage a really aggressive sister is coming in really handy here. She's obviously very keenly aware and mindful of Pulla's emotional state and actually sweeps in to manage it if something seems to be wrong. Pulla isn't getting worked up any more, but in earlier situations when he would begin to freak out, Posso would immediately engage in some sort of a consoling behavior. Almost like how a parent needs to break a child out of emotional distress and just put a stop to it. It's frankly amazing how you can practically see small wheels turning in their heads and how they clearly have really keen thought processes about these things.
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 27, 2021 8:17:04 GMT
I'm so THRILLED!! This is a tremendous breakthrough on all fronts! Well done, Teemu!
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Post by teemu on Nov 27, 2021 10:33:24 GMT
They spent the night sharing the cage, and everything was alright! I woke up to find them in the same exact spot I'd left them, sleeping together without any issues at all. They woke up some time after I started moving around and then climbed up together to eat. Now they're huddling together on a perch. It's just amazing. They're acting like they've always been like this.
Pulla also seems a bit less intrested in what I'm doing, which is understandable now that he's got a girlfriend. It's a bit of a bittersweet feeling in that sense, since he's been so totally bonded to me for so long, but if he's happy, then I'm happy!
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 27, 2021 16:08:06 GMT
I'm so pleased to hear this, such a brilliant result for Pulla and Posso and you!
When you see such deep and complex empathy from them, the mind really boggles how some people are surprised to even hear that animals have feelings.
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 27, 2021 18:41:46 GMT
WOW!! This is so AWESOME!!
When I think of how things have gone . . . it really seems to boil down to Suti having a very strong dislike of Posso, so much so that no matter what Posso did to win favor with her, Suti did not want her around. Makes me think of some human relationships I've seen or been part of. Breaks my heart in a way. HOWEVER!! It hasn't remained that way, and all four degus are now in a peaceful frame of mind.
Is Suti still doing better? How about Limpu? Do you notice any changes in her?
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Post by teemu on Nov 27, 2021 21:08:34 GMT
Suti and Limppu don't seem to be overly concerned with this new situation. I haven't really noticed many changes, other than Suti generally easing up like I mentioned earlier. She's been more at peace and seems to be able to do other things than be angry and fight, now. Limppu is... honestly really hard to read, but she seems to be doing the things she has been doing up to this point. They spend more time together and sleep together, but they don't seem to be stressed or insecure due to the change. They've mostly been really impressed with the fact that they can go in and out of the cage freely during their playtime. Though now that there's no dissent in the cage, they don't even seem to be in that much hurry to get out, often. It's often been that they just climb back in by themselves at some point and then I close the cage.
It's making me think that Suti was essentially trying to evict Posso from the cage already, and that's why no one is all that surprised or stressed over it - not even Posso.
(One thing I'm wondering is whether or not Limppu might actually be a bit... different, mentally. She does not seem to totally grasp being a degu or how social order is meant to work, or even how a degu is meant to react. She just seems to totally accept everything as is and never really gets stressed over anything. And if something actually manages to spook her, she doesn't really seem to understand she should run, and instead she just starts screaming at the thing until it goes away. For example, when she plopped down to the floor once, our old dog came over to investigate. She's very kindly and would not hurt any animal, but the degus are still kind of spooked when she's around. Limppu just sat there and started making increasingly outraged noises at the dog, as if she simply did not understand what was going on and wanted it gone. Running never seemed to register to her, despite the fact she obviously did not want to be there.)
All that to say that I really don't know how Limppu is taking this, but judging by the reactions no one is deeply affected, and their reactions generally seem for the better.
Posso now seems very assertive and independent, honestly. Not at all the timid little thing she was when she was with Suti. It actually seems to be exactly what Pulla needs, an assertive female showing him how to behave and kind of setting the pace of their cohabitation.
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Post by teemu on Nov 28, 2021 10:47:01 GMT
One thing I've noticed about Pulla is that he's acting in his usual way when something changes, i.e. being more timid and careful until he can figure out what it all means. I don't think this is a worrying sight at all, since he reacts to almost anything this way, and it's more of a generalized "things are different, gotta be careful" reaction than being apprehensive of Posso specifically. He lays low, so to speak, is more watchful and careful to act, and get spooked more easily, and also sleeps more (or at least stays in his safe nest more), but is not withdrawn or scared to move around in the cage as such.
He reacted this way when the girls came in the first place, and when things have otherwise changed greatly. If things go the way they usually go, he should get over it within a week or so. He certainly doesn't seem to mind Posso herself, and they've been as friendly as ever, and neither seems to have any apprehension about hanging out together or when the other comes nearby.
The second night went just as well as the first night. It's funny to see how they kind of just seem to gravitate to the same spot. Both might be lazing in their own favorite spots for a bit during the earlier parts of the evening, but as it gets late, they will both be in Pulla's big toilet paper nest, and don't seem to really have any reason to get out until the morning comes.
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Post by teemu on Nov 30, 2021 15:05:52 GMT
Everything's been just dandy with Posso and Pulla over the last couple of days. I did notice that they were being a bit quieter yesterday and the day after, but today they were hard at work grooming and socializing again. Likely everyone just settling into their rhythms.
One thing I have, worryingly, noticed is that Limppu has lost weight. I remember weighing her not long ago, so it must have happened after the move. I'm kind of worried whether or not she might be stressing out and not eating enough due to that. She is so very hard to read and keeps to herself in many ways. I have seen her eating and she is as hungry for seeds as ever, but of course I can't be monitoring her eating all around the clock.
I gave her an extra helping of seeds in any case, and will monitor her weight over the coming days. She is so very tiny that I'm wondering if it would be best to start a focused feeding regimen already. Any weight drop in a degu that's way below average size runs the risk of affecting her overall condition. She's down to 172 grams from 182 grams (which seems to be the adult weight she's settled into). Certainly it should not drop any lower.
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Post by teemu on Dec 2, 2021 22:00:25 GMT
Whoa. It's been a whole week already. I may sound a bit like a broken record, but things have just been getting better. First Pulla and Posso were almost overeager to be together, and then there were some days of slight tension, but now it's been as if they've gotten used to the whole situation and just enjoy it. I have not seen them fighting at any point, and now they're really starting to develop dynamics as well. And Pulla has also found Posso's hammock, and it's the best thing ever Limppu has gained a few grams over the past couple of days. I've been giving her more seeds, forage and the tasty food. She's energetic and active, so I don't think she's taken ill or anything, and she does, happily, eat. Suti is much calmer in the cage, but an absolute menace outside it. She's not absolutely set on gnawing at the d**n drywall and won't stay away no matter how much I tell her. I'm almost wondering if she's famished for chalk, but at the same time there seems to be a lot of chalky traces in her urine... I'm also fairly sure that Suti managed to break her tail today. I've been as watchful as possible when she's outside, but she just absolutely DARTED under my foot when I took a step, and her tail paid the price... It's not a serious one, she does not seem to be in pain unless it's touched, but there is a slight unnatural angle to the part I stepped on, and it is very painful when I inspect it. I don't think it will be a big problem, since it does not seem to hinder her otherwise and it should heal just fine. Luckily enough. I'll have to be absolutely sure of where she is before I move, in the future.
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Post by moletteuk on Dec 7, 2021 18:57:24 GMT
Sorry for delayed reply. I'm very pleased everything is still going so well, that Posso and Pulla have settled into a married couple type routine, and that Limppu has gained a little weight, hopefully it was just the change in circumstances.
I always had a real fear of stepping on my goos. It's so difficult when they don't have any fear of you or understanding of momentum and if you manage not to step on them for x months or years, then they don't associate your feet with danger, and they just dart about so blummin' quickly sometimes.
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Post by teemu on Dec 7, 2021 20:22:46 GMT
Yeah, things seem to be all pretty well now! I have seen absolutely no conflict between Pulla and Posso, and it certainly isn't from any courtesy between them. Posso has been very pleased with the fact that she's calling the shots now, and she's very assertive about it. Pulla often gets pushed out of the way or say on in the hammock, but he seems to be totally fine with it since Posso isn't in any way actually mean.
Limppu's been gaining weight again, she's now up to 178 grams, so steady climbing. I guess it might also have had something to do with her moulting? She had a pretty heavy and noticeable fur change around this time too.
And it fortunately seems like Suti's tail didn't get broken after all, just merely bruised. It wasn't painful after a couple of days, and I haven't noticed it being in a weird angle any more. There's some bruising where it was crushed against the floor, but it's pretty minimal. Maybe this was a good lesson to her, though. As you say, degus can be very oblivious of dangers like this. I will of course try to be more careful in the future. I think she picked up a really bad habit of actually homing to my feet because she realized that she can sometimes slip out of the kitchen if I have to fetch something while she's out of the cage and just essentially sticks so close to me that I can't see her when I go through the door. Too smart for their own good, really...
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Post by deguconvert on Dec 7, 2021 20:32:37 GMT
LOL! So glad her tail is healing well, even more than you expected. And you are right, they really are too smart for their own good!
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Post by teemu on Dec 14, 2021 18:42:29 GMT
Seems like it might be the first time Posso's in heat after they've gotten introduced. I think she might have been on the end of her last one when they got together, since I remember Posso hassling Pulla a lot and him mounting her a lot for the first day, but not after that. In any case, she's been rather cranky and complainy, and has pushed Pulla around a lot, complained and chased him out of the nest a couple of times. Nothing aggressive, I mean, just the kind of squabbling they seem to get into when they're like this.
Seems like this might be a good test of their relationship. It's going to be an issue many, many times, so if they can't get along then, then that's a big problem. Luckily, Pulla seems to be entirely willing to accommodate this. He's been giving her space and dutifully evacuates the premises when she looks at him funny. They've been nose-to-nose a couple of times, but no real fighting or even actual arguing. Pulla seems to be happy with things as long as he understands that no one is out to get him. He mostly just chooses a spot that's out of Posso's way and keeps steady.
Posso and Suti seem to have almost synchronized heat cycles, which is understandable since they're sisters. Suti was screaming bloody murder a couple of days ago, which greatly unsettled Posso. It was a kind of a bittersweet sight, with Posso sitting in the corner of the cage, in the direction of where Suti is, and looking concerned. Pulla sat with her and was obviously trying to console her, huddle with her and hug her worries away. They're strangely human, in these interactions. I've had a lot of pet rodents, but degus do seem rather unique in many ways. Their social cues are both complex and surprisingly understandable.
(Intrestingly, Limppu never has any heat-related woes. I'm kind of starting to wonder if she's somehow developmentally challenged, since she's very small and petite, does not really seem to understand social issues at all and has never exhibited any heats...)
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