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Post by teemu on May 25, 2021 18:13:46 GMT
I think it might actually be that the girls have been more accepting of Pulla when they are in heat. If I'm reading them correctly, none of them are in heat now, and also have no real interest in Pulla.
It honestly kind of feels like they, as a group, have very little interest in actually including Pulla in their group dynamic, and I'm not sure Pulla is actually trying to work on it himself right now. They tolerate him on some days and maybe socialize a little, but it's all very stilted and reserved. The intro two days ago feels like some sort of an aberration, and looking back it doesn't really feel like things are building in that direction in general.
Limppu still at most tolerates Pulla and Suti just tells him to back off when she can. Posso has been more accepting, but even she's now giving him the cold shoulder. It doesn't feel like there's any stable progress forward, just that one day when they seemed to be suddenly alright with each other for a bit and then went back to essentially not even really trying. I really don't know how I could make it work better. They've kinda gotten used to meeting each other for a bit, and mostly put up with it, but it doesn't really look like any of them actually want to exist as a group. Pulla's not really forthcoming with things any more either, he just wants to hump the girls and gets mad if they don't submit to him.
I don't want to sound pessimistic about it, but looking at all of this, I'm skeptical at the moment about the prospect of getting them all together. Especially since the girls' adolescence will be messing with them even more, so it really doesn't look all that promising right now...
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Post by deguconvert on May 26, 2021 0:18:17 GMT
I'm not sure what to say, but I kind of think I would be inclined to take a day or two off. Just give them some time apart and then try again. They won't forget each other. However, that is your call. What do you think?
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Post by teemu on May 26, 2021 5:46:43 GMT
I think it's a good idea for now. It kinda feels like they're just getting more worked up over each other for now, so letting them cool off a bit in any case would be for the best.
Oh, and I'm sorry if that last post came over as very pessimistic. It is a bit frustrating now, and I had to tell them off quite a bit yesterday, so I wasn't in high spirits about it. But I also think that, realistically speaking, there seem to be some issues that are not getting worked out well. Only Posso shows any real interest in allowing Pulla to be anything more than a stranger inhabiting the same space most of the time, and my read is that the more positive days were more or less because some of the girls were in heat and that made them much more accepting of Pulla. At the same time, Pulla is also not really all that forthcoming now, and seems to have settled into just assuming he's there to hump the girls and then go home, and gets angry when that doesn't happen. So Limppu and Suti just put up with it and try to ignore Pulla until it's time to go home for the most part.
It kind of feels like the two sides are feeding each other's problems about it. When the girls don't really show Pulla that there's anything else on offer (like actual companionship), he assumes that he should just hump them until he's taken back home. It's not that absolute of course, and they have attempted socializing as well, but obviously it hasn't paid off greatly for them, and it's a bit hard to see how they've improved, over the longer term. In many ways they still behave like when I started, and only those two days last weekend seemed to be the kind of positive developments I'm looking for - and they obviously weren't the new normal...
I'm not losing hope about it yet, but I am kind of worried that if this general pattern doesn't start to break in favor of more positive interactions, they'll essentially settle into just putting up with it for a bit and then going home.
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Post by moletteuk on May 26, 2021 9:55:14 GMT
It's understandable that you feel a bit frustrated, it's a difficult process. It might not feel like it, but, whilever it hasn't descended into fighting it is going OK. It's OK to take a break and it's OK to think about trying something different.
Certainly take a few days to recharge your batteries and then perhaps you could resume and if you get a meet that goes well perhaps you could try them in one of the cages, or perhaps you could change things up in the pen. It's only a few days since the really good intro happened, it can happen again, and when it does you could try extending that meet.
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Post by teemu on May 26, 2021 11:20:22 GMT
Changing things up might be a good idea too, but I'm not sure what should be changed. Pulla has a rather mean streak in that if someone tries to disturb him when he's enjoying a snack or a toy, or anything he enjoys, he gets REALLY possessive. Back when I was trying to get him together with Munkki, I made the mistake of giving them a sand bath in the kitchen once, thinking it would give them something to do, but that was probably the worst fight they ever had. So for the moment, the kitchen floor is pretty bare, and they mostly just have some big apple tree branches and whatever furniture they can climb on. Don't want to trigger mean fights right now.
But I agree that it would be a good idea to shake things up somehow, as everyone seems to have kind of gotten used to this current routine of going out for a bit, mostly avoiding the big degu and telling him off if he gets too handsy. And that really seems to annoy Pulla a lot.
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Post by savvy on May 26, 2021 14:15:09 GMT
I think you may need a range of things so there's always something interesting that doesn't have another degu in it. If one is getting possessive over something, it doesn't help if there's nothing for the other one to do but watch.
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Post by deguconvert on May 26, 2021 17:47:40 GMT
This really is the normal process. Forward, backward, forward, backward . . . and while it feels like we are losing and regaining the same ground every time, we really are not. There are many, many points of connection, trust, and bonding, and you are trying to help them stitch those connections with each other. Each one of those points require work and understanding from each degu, and as you know, it is much more complex when there are multiples involved. As well, you have two sisters and another female that is not a litter mate . . . so you have two strangers and two family members. Add to that the approach of adolescence, and well . . . some of those points of connection are beginning to do a hormonal jig and are harder to tack down.
You have attained wonderful things in the time that you have had these new girls and been working to build a bond. Don't discount that, Teemu. There are connections that have been made! It just not the whole thing just yet, and it may take a while to get there. There is a LOT of learning going on for each one of these degus, and they are doing their best, as are you. You all are doing GREAT! It just isn't an easy or speedy process in the majority of cases.
Right after I joined the forum, we lost one of our two original boys. We went out an found two male pups to introduce to him, followed the introduction processes that were recommended to me, and then we had two months of together. Then adolescence hit and hit hard. The next 8 months were long and deeply frustrating. I tried everything I could think of to get them together. I did daily intros, sometimes 2-3 a day. I paused for days, and picked it up again. Swapped cages . . . learned THAT is a bad idea. Swapped substrate. Bled a lot, because of using my hands to stop bad fights, and making the mistake once of attempting an intro inside my shirt . . . don't ask . . . lets just say I was desperate for something to work. IT DIDN'T!! LOL! However, once everything clicked, they were well and truly bonded with each other.
I totally understand how frustrating this is. Many on here do. Believe me, when I say, you are doing really well!! Let go of your timeline, if you have one, because that is one thing that truly feeds the frustration. Keep analyzing what you see, and adjust accordingly. Maybe for a short while you need to just to Pulla with one on one with each of the girls. Make a chart, so you know who and when. Then have a group meet again. Help him to get to know each of the girls, and them to know him. Also . . . humping and boxing is a very regular part of the degu day to day. They all hump each other, and they all box. Totally normal. We tend to think of it as a negative thing . . . while they think of it is reaffirming their bond and the colony hierarchy.
Believe me . . . you are doing GREAT and so are they!
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Post by teemu on May 26, 2021 20:22:38 GMT
Thank you, Deguconvert. It's best not to panic about these things. There is no time limit, as you say, and it's not as if the degus themselves are going to think about their future like that. They live in the now, and even if they're just doing what they normally do, I suppose they will also be getting used to each other and familiar with the idea that they're all part of the same general whole. It's likely good if I mentally prepare for the possibility that they will not actually, possibly bond well before the girls are through their adolescent phase. That's fine with me as such, it's not as if there's a rush to get it done. I do think having degus in the house has already made Pulla more energetic (although a lot of that is him banging on his cage and staring at the girls in a way that sometimes looks rather... deranged, honestly!) I think one of the reasons it's all a bit messy right now is also the fact that the girls seem to be settling on a hierarchy of their own, between themselves. It looks like Suti, ever the quick, snappy, loud one, is actually now quickly asserting dominance over the others. And somehow Limppu, who is the oldest and was at one point the bravest, seems to be at the bottom of the pecking order. Even Posso dominates her a lot. I think it's because Limppu is actually becoming pretty calm in many ways. She's the easiest to handle, and the one who actually allows me to pick her up from the cage no problem. In some ways she reminds me of Munkki, the way she's very politle when handled. Posso is somewhere in the middle and boxes with Suti quite a bit sometimes, but it still looks like Suti has the guts to be the leader. It might be that since Posso and Suti are sisters, they've kind of teamed up on Limppu? A bit mean from a human perspective, but it's of course best that Limppu seems to have accepted her fate and doesn't really fight their dominance. Although Limppu still seems to be the most daring one when it comes to snacks. I had to pull her out of the sunflowed seed bag one day when she jumped right in. Her butt was hanging out as she snatched all she could reach and she just outright screamed bloody murder when I pulled her out
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Post by deguconvert on May 26, 2021 22:26:37 GMT
ROFL!! You are definitely getting to know them and love them each for their own unique personalities! Love your descriptions!
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Post by teemu on May 28, 2021 11:03:24 GMT
Well, I tried an intro today again, and I thought it went a bit better than a couple of days ago. Everyone was tense but generally more courteaus than back then... but the troubles started after I put them back home. Suti is just absolutely FURIOUS with Posso, because she smells like Pulla I think, and keeps lunging at her, nipping her, chasing her, screaming at her... And Posso eventually started pushing back and screaming back. It got so bad I thought they might have a FBOD situation coming up at one point.
I've had to put Suti into their carrier to chill out for a bit. This is really bad right now. She's absolutely berserk about having anything to do with Pulla in her territory. If it's getting this bad, I can't keep doing this thing. I literally have no cages I could use to house them, and I really, REALLY do not want to have multiple solitary degus!
I don't know what to do now. I don't even know what I could do if I put Suti back and she keeps harassing Posso like that. Limppu is also looking absolutely stressed and just hides away and actually looks at me like she's hoping I'll save her. This has gotten really bad and it seems like a couple of days spent thinking about it just gave Suti more time to conclude how much she despises Pulla...
At this point I'm really not willing to risk this causing actual destabilization between the girls. I have no backup plan and Suti is now reacting to this so violently that it's actually looking risky to continue.
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Post by savvy on May 28, 2021 12:15:01 GMT
I know its hard, but you are doing really well. I think they just need to cool those tempers for a few days. Intros are nearly always two steps forward and one step back and degus are world class grudge holders, seriously they're Olympic standard sulkers.
I think a timeout from intros for a few days will help you all.
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Post by teemu on May 28, 2021 12:23:52 GMT
It's really bad right now, honestly. Suti is so volatile right now that I really, really do not dare to tempt fate with this again. If she actually goes off on Posso or Limppu for real (and I'm serious about it being really close just now), I have no solutions at all for the moment. I can't afford that happening.
I gave them a few days of timeout, and it made things even more aggravated. What if I try again after the weekend and Suti actually goes ballistic? She seems to be ready to actually blow where Pulla is concerned. I have no cages that could hold the girls right now, other than the one they are in, so I can't even separate them if it comes to that. I'm really worried about trying again, since it could actually cause real harm now.
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Post by deguconvert on May 28, 2021 19:28:44 GMT
There are occasions in many introductory efforts where time apart is much needed. Time that may be weeks or longer. How would you feel about parting their cages, or inserting cardboard between so they cannot see each other, and leaving them apart for say . . . two weeks? Then taking the cardboard out at that time to allow them to see each other again. Watch their reactions and if they are instantly volatile, put the cardboard back in.
Think of it as a reset. Back to the beginning. I had to do this many times. But what I noticed is that things would move faster toward friendly footing than they had the time before. We would also get further along before another melt down turned things around again. In the end, we were so close and they were being total turds, and that was when I became top degu and would let them get away with anything. NOT ANYTHING. I didn't want screaming, or any kind of lashing out. No matter where I was in the house, I was constantly listening for them, and if I heard thumping feet which indicated heated chasing on opposite sides of the bars in both cages, I would yell NO from where I was and stomp loudly into the room and bang my hand on both cages. The more consistent I was, the more they listened, and before long, I didn't have to bang the cages. They would stop. Then they began to stop before I got to the degu room. Now . . . this was at the end of eight months of battle and intros . . . as I have earlier said. It might be too early for this in your present intros. And I know it isn't something that everyone feels comfortable adopting. However . . . I do think you need to practice some stern talking with Suti so that she starts getting the message that she will not be allowed to dictate behavior, nor harm the others.
As Savvy has said . . . you are doing really well!! You really are!! Don't be discouraged.
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Post by teemu on May 28, 2021 20:32:24 GMT
Yeah, I think a reset might be needed for now. It seems like the girls have a lot going on, and Suti is really volatile and goes off way too easily if any outside factor interferes with things. They obviously need time to settle their own differences now, before anything else is done. I had hoped that I could get Pulla fitted into their hierarchy before they were already settling into things this much, but that ship has obviously sailed. So now it would be better to just let them figure it out for a couple weeks, then let them all figure out how Pulla fits into it - after just meeting him doesn't make Suti convinced that the other girls are conspiring against her. Things calmed down eventually after like... two hours of fighting and whining (she would stop each time I got there to stare at her, but started again soon after I left). I actually tried to put in a sight blocker between the cages, but that somehow made Suti MORE agitated, so I'm really not sure what's going on with her. I don't think she herself knows right now! I took it off but moved the cages farther apart, and that seems to be enough for now. On that note, I'm definitely feeling some pity towards Limppu. Both Suti and Posso have totally browbeaten her into submission, and she honestly looks like she's silently asking for help or just hoping that they don't think she's defying them any more. I think she also has some sort of a scratch above her eye. There's been a mark there for a couple of days and her eye's irritated (nothing severe, it works and doesn't seem to be getting worse, I've carefully cleaned it). I think it happened during an outing time some days ago when Pulla got agitated. I originally figured it was just some eye discharge matting the fur, but it stays like that and she doesn't want anyone touching it. Used to be that Limppu was the most dominant and headstrong one, but now it looks like she's been superceded by the sisters. I don't think they're actually abusing her or anything (it's all been normal hierarchy stuff, but they both dominate her a lot), they sleep together and cuddle and all, but she's definitely become much meeker. She's very happy if I pick her up and cuddle with her.
(Thanks for the earlier tip about putting Suti in timeout, Deguconvert. It really broke up the worst of the aggression she had towards Posso in the moment when she had to spend 15 minutes thinking about things alone. She was still screaming and pushing her, but at least it didn't look like she was thinking of actually attacking her sister!)
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Post by deguconvert on May 29, 2021 4:44:58 GMT
There have been times when one degu in a group seems to totally lose their calm and they need an extended time out. Solitary in a sense. Where they are in a cage by themselves, in a room where they cannot see or smell the other degus. They don't get human interaction either. Food and water. Wellness checks. But not social interactions. This time apart is more than a half hour, more like 1-3 full days.
You're not to that point . . . but if things get more heated, it is a potential tool you can use sparingly.
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Post by teemu on Jun 9, 2021 10:23:29 GMT
I'll be starting the introductions again during or after the weekend. Everything has been calm and there hasn't been any drama through the cage bars or anything like that. So time to clean up the kitchen and give everyone a new try.
The girls have grown a lot and I haven't seen any real dominance scuffles any more. I think Suti won out in the end, but that doesn't really seem to show in any practical way. She did have a heat over the past couple of days, though, and she shouts incredibly loud during heat. It's as if she's trying to scream as loudly as possible. It'd be incredibly distressing... if she wasn't literally lounging around or lazing all laid-out. One time I saw her lying on her side, all curled up like a big comfy bean, and she screamed once, switched to the other side and screamed again.
Other than that, the girls have grown a lot over this time, and their personal dynamics have mostly stayed the same. Limppu, the oldest girl, is very calm, more individualistic than the sisters, and also doesn't mind being handled at all. Usually I can just pick her up from the cage and she doesn't really care which way she's handled. She's very chill - unless there's seeds on offer, then she becomes a little terror who screams and growls if I don't let her just sit on the hand and eat everything. Posso and Suti seem so share more of a sibling bond, and Posso often comforts Suti if she's under some distress. Posso is still very much the most timid of the lot and doesn't like being handled, but she does come to see what's up when I open the cage. Suti is a lot more ok with being handled, but is a lot more active than Limppu and does not like laying around.
Pulla, meanwhile, has been his own silly self. He still dutifully keeps gnawing at his bars and staring at the girls, but he's gotten used to them as well. Nobody seems to have a major issue with the other cage, at least.
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Post by deguconvert on Jun 9, 2021 19:06:21 GMT
This is good! It will be interesting to see how things go!
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Post by moletteuk on Jun 10, 2021 10:41:59 GMT
Hope it goes well for you.
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Post by teemu on Jun 12, 2021 16:50:55 GMT
Well, we had a short intro again, and things looked pretty cordial during it. Things had obviously reset to some degree, and it looked more like they were carefully getting to know each other again. Not totally unfamiliar of course. It also looks like the girls are just less intimidated by Pulla due to the simple fact that they're much bigger now, and Pulla isn't nearly as big and intimidating any more. They were less wary of him, although of course there was usual carefulness.
It looks like Suti's not willing to have any of it even now, though. Right after the intro, she was back to her dominance posturing and chasing the other girls around the cage all fierce. There has been nothing like that during all the time I was giving them a break, but she's obviously ready to start asserting dominance right away. It seems pretty obvious that she considers Pulla an intruder at this point, and is very unwilling to reconsider.
I'm feeling a bit hesitant to continue. I still don't have a cage that could house any of the girls if it goes bad, aside from the one they're in (I know it's not very responsible, I'm looking to get this fixed as soon as possible), so it seems pretty risky right now. It's not as severe as it was before the break, but it looks like it might easily get there again, since she's obviously prepped for conflict about it. At the same time, I certainly can't get them introduced at all if I don't start doing it again...
Posso and Pulla obviously still remembered each other and did some grooming. It was less one-sided now, probably because Posso's also gotten bigger and is not intimidated by the boy any more. They spun around each other trying to get a good smell and groomed each other, but Posso wasn't intrested in getting mounted and gave him a quick right hook as soon as he tried anything (at least three times), but generally speaking they got along very well. Pulla does not seem to mind being told off nearly as much as he hates being flouted by the other girls. When Posso gave him a warning and slapped him down, he simply waddled away very quickly and did not challenge it at all. He did get very agitated by Limppu at one point since the girl just would not even acknowledge him and instead sat under a towel.
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Post by deguconvert on Jun 12, 2021 19:38:25 GMT
I'm beginning to think that maybe you should work on Pulla and Posso being introduced and being a pair.
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