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Post by deguconvert on May 20, 2021 7:44:19 GMT
When you have multiples in a cage, we often suggest having more than one water bottle, located on different levels of the cage, or in very opposite directions. That will help with the water bottle issues at least.
I wonder if you need to have some introduction times that are only Pulla and Suti? See what happens with that. Will they start to get along better . . . will she go back to the cage and fight with the other girls . . . or will it start to make her more comfortable with the whole group?
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Post by teemu on May 20, 2021 9:14:51 GMT
Yeah, multiple water bottles seems like a good idea. I should probably put in multiple food bowls as well. Degus can be so fussy about their food sometimes.
Focused introductions also sounds good. If there's to be any hope of them getting along, they will have to settle this situation and especially Suti will have to come to terms with things, so focusing on them for now (with shared intros between all of them in between things to keep the others used to it as well) would be good. Or if that doesn't work to make them accept each other, then at least I will get a better idea about what's going on, as you say, and it will make further calls about where to go with the situation easier.
I'll try that today and see what comes of it.
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Post by teemu on May 20, 2021 17:48:19 GMT
I tried the one-on-one intro and I think it might have gone... better? I think it's actually helping that Pulla is a bit fed up with Suti's attitude and is actually standing his ground a bit. Suti was less antagonistic towards him. There were a lot of arguments and some fighting as well, but it seemed a lot milder than before. Like, earlier Suti would chase Pulla around and dropkick him relentlessly multiple times even after he'd totally yielded, but now that Pulla's pushing back a bit, she seems to be much less willing to just be a total thug towards him. The arguments were more two-sided this time, and it just didn't seem as severe. It does look like neither of them wants to actually yield ground to the other though, which could be an issue.
On top of that, Suti also didn't scream or bully her sisters at all after I put her back in the cage. She whined a bit and was a bit restless for a moment, but then settled down and everything was fine again. So maybe this is actually working?
I managed to get some footage of their scuffles, let's see if I can manage to upload it somewhere. My estimation is that this is all pretty healthy hierarchy settling right now, more so than just angry aggression or anything. Of course, that might just not go anywhere, but at least it's better than actual fighting.
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Post by teemu on May 20, 2021 18:05:21 GMT
Ah, there we go. Actually managed to upload them.
This one was weirdly constructive, relatively speaking. It almost looks like some sort of an actual attempt by Suti to make Pulla submit, instead of just random running at him.
This one's more like how it tended to be, just running and randomly flailing. Pulla is a lot more proactive now. For the first couple of days, he just tried to escape. Now he's no longer as afraid.
Here he totally stood his ground and Suti retreated very quickly. He's probably so adamant here because he likes sitting on me a lot and probably totally considers me his territory.
Another one of those where Suti apparently just suddenly doesn't feel like doing it any more. I liked the dramatic end with Pulla noticing my phone.
That one was a bit complicated. Pulla thought he'd take a look at her after she let up, and Suti obviously wasn't pleased, but the situation defused quickly.
And one last video. Pulla shuts down Suti's aggression with a... very graceful kick. Suti obviously gets the message.
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Post by deguconvert on May 20, 2021 18:29:17 GMT
She is totally trying to dominate him, and she could be disputing his right to you as well. In one of the videos where she comes up on your knee, it looks like she very speedily bites him before running away. She may not have, but I'm going to suggest that you have a look to see if there are any bite marks on Pulla, so that you can know if she is being more aggressive than you have realized. You need to brush his fur forward in order to get a good look at his skin.
I noticed that Pulla's tail was wagging and thumping a bit, which tells me that his agitation is growing as well. I don't see Suti backing down at this point. She is trying to do stealth attacks, or so it looked to me. They do need to work this out if they are going to all be together, but I think it will mean you slow the things down bit so that you have a stable bond formed . . . that is if you really want all four of them together. You will need to watch them closely . . . if neither of them give, you could see some FBOD happening, which you will need to be prepared to stop quickly. This is NOT a futile effort by any stretch, so don't give up on it. It just might feel you're going backwards. Don't see it that way. It's like mountain climbing . . . all has been going well, until you hit a tricky stretch, and in order to get past that stretch you have to go slower, potential back track a bit to find the safer transition, and move forward with care. Suddenly you are past it and things pick up speed again. You will get there, and so will they!
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Post by teemu on May 20, 2021 18:54:54 GMT
I tried to check him after that happened, but it does not look like Suti actually bit him.
What you're describing sounds totally plausible, I can totally see Suti trying to do stealth attacks. It's pretty clear that she's not intrested in normal socializing at all for now, at least. Pulla isn't really willing to back down either, and I think this is kinda making him fall back on his bad habits he developed with Munkki. Thinking about it, their quarreling looks a lot like how Pulla was with Munkki back then, when heither of the boys wanted to back down either. The boys never had a full FBOD situation, but that's mainly because I could actually see both of them preparing for it and called it off before that happened. It hasn't gotten that bad here, but I can totally see it being possible if Pulla gets more fed up. It might be well be that what I'm interpreting as Suti calming down a bit is just her realizing that Pulla might actually get nasty if she doesn't back off...
As for what what I actually want, I don't think getting them all together into one unit is as important as getting Pulla at least some company. Ideally, I'd want them all to get along of course, but I would be fine with just him and Posso sharing a cage by themselves, for example, with Limppu and Suti in the other cage. That might be easier, but I'm mainly worried about how things would go if conflict then develops between either group. Limppu and Suti aren't siblings, and though they're all very close and amicable right now, Munkki and Pulla started having a lot of issues when they reached puberty (they weren't siblings either).
I will say, though, that when I think about Pulla, I think the easier introduction to just Posso might be better for him. His personality doesn't seem to be all that good for a more difficult intro like this, despite how patient he seems to be with things right now. After Munkki, I think his threshold for conflict is pretty bad and he's very tense as soon as it's even possible there might be conflict. He and Posso get along really well, and I've actually seen Posso consoling Pulla after situations like that (and Pulla actually calms down when she comes over, despite how worked up he is sometimes).
I'm not sure what would be better right now, trying to get just Pulla and Posso together, or carefully working this situation. I think you kind of confirmed what I'm fearing, and my earlier experiences with Pulla and Munkki strongly make me feel that it might not work out all between Suti and Pulla. With Limppu, at least, it was just shouting and working out their differences, but here it's two dominant personalities clashing - like with Munkki...
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Post by deguconvert on May 20, 2021 23:32:54 GMT
Don't give up on Pulla and Suti just yet, Teemu. Yes it might get a bit rocky, but I don't see anything at this point that tells me it is pointless. I think it is actually encouraging, it just needs careful monitoring and guiding.
First thing I'll say is, you need to assume dominant degu position. Don't be a passive observer. Don't just leave all the colony/relationship decisions to them. You want them to get along, so start to let it be known.
How do you do that? If you see something you don't like, then you say, "NO!!" If they don't listen, slap the floor, and shout "NO!" Make them aware that you have expectations that they will learn to get along. The more they recognize you as being dominant, they more they will listen. If they don't listen, put the offender back in the cage alone . . . or put them both back in their cages alone. If the Suti goes after the other girls, tell her off. (Ummm . . . do you call them by name and are they recognizing their names? If not . . . work on that. Call them and when they come to their name, reward with a small treat. Something they love and will do just about anything for. For my boys it was sunflower seeds, brazil nuts, and walnuts. They learned a lot of things with repetition and TREATS! They all knew their names, and they responded to them. They also knew if they had done something they shouldn't and would stop as soon as they heard me shout, or come "stomping" down the hall to tell them to behave.) Call Suti by name and say NO! or whatever comes to mind. If she doesn't listen, you can slap the wall by the cage and tell her to stop. Same for all of them. If there is bad behavior in the girls cage, whomever is not backing down, put that one in a temporary time out if you have travel cage that you would use for transport needs. Make sure they all get time with you, all get encouragement, and all know that you are not a pushover. LOL Once everything is good and they are all bonded, then you can back off and let them be. If issues arise again at some point, you are already familiar with what it feels like to hold the reigns of degu authority and it isn't hard to pick them up again. They will fall in line again.
Secondly, Pulla has come leaps and bounds in his behavior and development, with you and with the girls. Don't discredit what he has learned and what he has demonstrated that he is willing to learn. Let him keep moving forward, with your guidance and support.
Thirdly, I think Suti feels a bit like she doesn't belong, so she is trying to stake her claim . . . be dominant . . . and maybe "scare off that male that is trying to join her colony, and whip those star struck "sisters" of hers back into shape." She needs to work this out, and it might not be easy . . . especially with adolescence looming in the not so distant future. Get to know her. Work on building a relationship with her. Make a big point of it. I think she wants it. BUT also let her know there are limits and she has to stay within them. She can find and accept her place in the hierarchy, but you are top degu, and she must learn to accept and bond with Pulla.
Does this make sense?
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Post by teemu on May 20, 2021 23:59:14 GMT
Yes, I think that all makes a lot of sense, thanks for the experienced words! I'd mostly tried not to get involved with their introductions unless the situation went bad, since I felt it might prevent them from bonding naturally, but it seems like some guidance is needed. I don't think they recognize their names yet, but I'm working on it (Pulla learned his name very well, so I'm sure they've at least started to understand that the noises have something to do with them, since I constantly call them by name when I play or socialize with them). I've done similar things as you say when Suti tries to gnaw on the floorboards and such, and I think she's at least learned that when I make a noise and slap my hands together, that means she should stop doing something like that. I've also pushed her off when she's been totally relentless with Pulla, so I'll do it more in the future as soon as it looks like they don't get along (past a reasonable point of course). And the same for when she gets cross with the other girls (or there are other issues with any of them). I've also been trying to build a relationship with the girls, yes. Suti is actually the most daring at this point and is always by the cage door when she sees someone nearby, and I let her (and the other girls of course) play with my hands as often as possible. They're not big on scritches yet, but they do find the hands really fascinating. And they do really like sunflower seeds I'll keep trying to make things work out between them for now, and I'll take a more active role in preventing them from getting too agitated with each other. The situation is still evolving quite a bit, so hopefully it's possible to get Suti to learn some boundaries (and for Pulla to learn to be calmer around the girls). And if that just doesn't work at all, there are other options. Thanks for the good advice, I'll keep people updated on how things go!
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Post by teemu on May 21, 2021 15:18:51 GMT
Suti has been patrolling next to Pulla's cage all day and shouting at him and in general, all worked up. Pulla is kind of confused by this, but is already ignoring the whole thing at this point. I'm thinking that I might leave Suti in the cage today for the outing time and just let the other girls hang out with Pulla since she's already this anxious. I guess it's only fair, the other girls didn't get to hang out with Pulla yesterday. And she does seem to need a break right now.
I think this reflects well on Pulla, though. He doesn't care about Suti's angry whining or similar things as long as no one's trying to actually physically bully him. He's just lounging down, eating, running in his wheel and doing all the normal things he does. The girls are also mostly ignoring Suti's plight. They came to check up on her a bit, but after she just shouted about how terrible everything is, they figured that she's probably alright and went back to their usual stuff.
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Post by deguconvert on May 21, 2021 17:29:19 GMT
Perhaps, if you have Pulla out with the other girls, you can let Suti have a free run time alone with you?
I think I need to clarify, because I can see I didn't speak all my thoughts, and that may have left you with the idea that I think things are at the tipping point with Suti. I don't, but I do see the tension building. As a result I was more trying to give you a, should it escalate to the point that you are finding bite wounds, or the FBOD kind of fighting, it helps if you have a position of dominance with the degus and can begin to assert your will for their harmonious state.
If this sounds like asking you to walk a tightrope type thing, it kind of is. It means analyzing their state and interactions . . . and adjusting accordingly . . . and this is what you are already doing and doing well!! It's just not always easy to judge if the boxing you see one minute (which is healthy and normal on the daily really), will suddenly erupt into a full blown battle . . . especially with introductions, and with degus in the adolescent/young adult phases. It's a bit of a wild ride. LOL!
You have so much going for you, Teemu. You are keenly observant, a ready learner, a generous owner, you interact with them a lot, and care very much about what their life is like. You already have degus that are loving life with you, and I believe you will have the end you hope for when all is said and done.
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Post by teemu on May 21, 2021 17:51:40 GMT
Well, I did take an outing with the other girls, and the results were... a bit mixed. It seems like Suti's attitude might be catching on with Limppu, and she mostly did not want anything to do with Pulla. She's much less aggressive about it, and more like "Stay back!" and angrily shouting at him when he tries something, but she's not very open to Pulla. I think Limppu is also a pretty dominant personality (she is the growler, after all), and Pulla really does not like how she isn't swooning all over him like Posso is, and tries to put on airs with her. So she's very quick to show him that she's not intimidated by such antics. I think that's what Pulla's weird butt-nipping habit is about, actually: Pulla senses that the girl in question is not really all that into him, and figures that he can show her what for if he just nips her on the butt a bit... and against all his expectations, the girl doesn't actually swoon, but turns around and drives him away! That only happened once today, after Limppu had allowed him to actual butt-sniffing range. Way to go, stupid boy, keep proving her that she's entirely justified to scream at you...
Posso, meanwhile, was a darling again and got along with Pulla very well. She does sometimes push back at him and there was a situation in which she got spooked and jumped at him, but they seem to be much better at making up afterwards, and Posso actually interacts with Pulla, instead of just tolerating him. Although towards the end, there was a situation where she actually pushed him off and away after she got fed up with being humped. Pulla accepted it without issue though.
Some footage of Posso grooming Pulla. Pulla seems to expect these groomings very much, probably because I scratch his chin and chest so much.
And here's all that humping. Posso puts up with it well usually (she's not even in heat most of the time), but obviously she has her limits. They were okay afterwards though, Pulla backed off and wasn't miffed at her or anything.
Here's how Limppu usually is. It really looks like she left him hanging, with his head all ready to receive some grooming...
And here's the butt-nipping incident. Not the first one, but the only one today. I checked Limppu afterwards but there was no blood or anything. It really does look like he tries to nip them to get some respect, and it never works. Tellingly, he hasn't nipped Posso at all after she started being all submitting...
Here's also a strange little scuffle I got on video, with an additional "spooked" behavior that Pulla displays often when the girls are active around him. It looks like he gets kinda spooked by Posso suddenly appearing, and is unsure what she's about to do, so he quickly flees. This is actually a pretty common situation when the girls are moving around him. He gets worked up and runs away. I got some other behaviors like that on video as well, but Youtube seems to think I can't upload more videos today...
There were also situations where Limppu screamed at Pulla or jumped at him to get him to go away, but those happen so quickly that I didn't manage to get footage. Usually it's because Pulla gets way too bold and thinks he's allowed to intrude on her personal space all willy-nilly, and she's quick to prove him otherwise. For the most part, Pulla doesn't react nearly as badly as with Suti, seems like he realizes that it's not a harassing behavior and the girl just wants him to go away, and so he does. He just doesn't realize it means he should LEARN something from it...
EDIT: Oh, I also tried to be more assertive about not letting them fight all willy-nilly when they got into an argument, since thing got a bit heated at one point (they were all kinda running into each other worked up and getting more worked up due to that). Putting a hand down and telling them off actually calmed things down very well!
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Post by deguconvert on May 21, 2021 19:49:45 GMT
Things are looking good!! Lots of pretty normal behaviors, really. The longer they have to get used to each other, the more stable they will become. I'd say they are doing very well.
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Post by teemu on May 22, 2021 18:31:46 GMT
Another outing today, and it was suddenly amazing somehow! We had a bit of the usual crankiness and telling Pulla off for being too bold and whatnot, but somehow all the girls were alright with him being there today and everyone groomed and interacted! I'm really not sure what's caused this, but even Suti, who has just absolutely detested Pulla for the past few days, now suddenly decided that it'd be okay to interact with him. There were a few situations where their bad habits started showing and I had to tell them off a couple of times, but it looked a lot more productive than anything else up until now! I'm especially surprised about Suti, but Limppu was also a lot more tolerant. And for some reason Posso was a bit less of a doormat and a bit more of an actual participant in the whole socialization (but still very friendly with Pulla).
I ended the session pretty quickly since I wanted it to end on a high note so that everyone would have a good impression, but I'm really happy about this. I think telling them off and doing a couple of those more restricted meetings (only Suti and without Suti) did a lot of good for them.
They both look totally sure that the other is up to something and wary, but at the same time they obviously weren't fighting this time! Both situations look like they're really close to freaking, but really close is the same as no freaking this time, so that's a victory.
Limppu also put up with the boy a lot better today. Maybe Pulla has worked on his pick-up technique? I was sure he'd get slapped for that, since Limppu was essentially trapped in a corner, but apparently not!
The other time, though, Limppu wasn't as pleased. (I don't actually think that was a rump nipping attempt, Pulla is always really obvious about nipping a rump. Limppu just got spooked by the sudden nose up her butt )
And here's them all in a big crowd. Pulla obviously got a bit intimidated when everyone came over and it broke down a bit towards the end, but still a lot better than the earlier interactions. Especially how Suti wasn't actually doing anything mean before Pulla kind of freaked towards the end. I was getting ready to interfere if Suti had kep running after him, but she obviously didn't get too worked up about it either.
A lot of things like that. It's really weird how quickly their tone has shifted. Just yesterday they were totally different. Now it actually looks like there's a chance for peace!
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Post by deguconvert on May 22, 2021 23:43:33 GMT
WOO HOO!! AWESOME!!
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Post by teemu on May 23, 2021 17:25:58 GMT
Things were pretty similar today. No fights at all with Suti, and he just had one random screaming match with Limppu over some issue I couldn't really identify, but otherwise Pulla got along with the girls really well! Granted, I'm fairly certain Posso is actually in heat now, so much of Pulla's time was spent humping her even more vigorously than normal. I was actually certain that he was being too rough with her, since Posso was whining ears all flat, but when I tried to get them separated, Posso actually ran back to Pulla right away. For some weird reason he also wanted to box with Pulla a bit (being all energetic maybe?). By the end of the outing she looked really scruffy from all the humping...
But all in all, they did great, and Pulla and Suti got along with each other better than yesterday. All the girls crowded around Pulla today again, and this time he didn't even freak. Not even when all three girls started grooming him suddenly. Maybe they're signalling that they're finally starting to accept him into the fold?
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Post by deguconvert on May 24, 2021 5:16:40 GMT
That sounds GREAT!! Maybe they are starting to accept him. Give them a little more time before you make any new changes to how you are doing things though.
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Post by teemu on May 24, 2021 17:21:49 GMT
Difficult time today. Pulla was easily agitated by everything and the girls were standoffish. I'm not sure why today's different from yesterday. It might be just hormones and their heat cycles making interactions different. But in any case, nobody really got along today and I had to interfere a lot. I called it quits pretty early since it was obvious that everyone was had come into the kitchen with bad intentions. It's annoying since yesterday was so good, but I guess that's just how it goes sometimes.
I did see Suti boxing quite a bit with Posso earlier, so it could be that the girls have had dominance issues today, and everyone was primed to be all argumentative already.
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Post by deguconvert on May 24, 2021 19:06:59 GMT
That could be! Sometimes it is as slight as a change in the weather, or a change coming that they can sense. Sounds like you handled it well.
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Post by teemu on May 25, 2021 17:08:55 GMT
Things didn't go too well today either. None of the girls were all that willing to interact with Pulla (Posso at least sat with him a bit and all that, but even she doesn't want to be groomed or mounted much) and Pulla was pretty agitated. I think he actually, for real tried to bite Limppu at one point (it was a WAY bigger chomp than his usual nipping), but fortunately Limppu was faster than me and got out of the way while I didn't have time to act before it was already over. Two days ago, they were all doing really well, but now it looks like things are quickly getting worse and everyone is more agitated and less willing to work together...
Not sure what I should do right now. Despite that one attempt, for the most part it was just normal arguing and scuffling, nothing serious. I think I should give them a day, or maybe two, without intros, since they obviously don't want to hang out together right now. Even Posso is liking him less at the moment. So maybe it's for the best if they all calm down and think about things for now...
Intrestingly enough, it doesn't look like Suti is being quite as standoffish as before. It's more like they're all just disdainful of Pulla at the moment, and Pulla gets angry over being taken lightly like that. It's a difficult situation...
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Post by moletteuk on May 25, 2021 17:52:22 GMT
I think this is a case of two steps forward, one step back, which must be a little disheartening, but is still positive progress overall.
Have you had the girls long enough to put together when each is in heat? or suspected in heat? If it ties in with bad intro days it could save you some worry.
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