|
Post by teemu on Jun 12, 2021 20:10:41 GMT
Yeah, it might be the most painless option, in the end. Posso seems to be very calm and submitting in general, and she's intrested in Pulla and always when they're out, she comes to him (or at least is much more ready to socialize with him). She seems like she could easily accept Pulla as part of her group if she was given a chance to do so.
I'd still need to get a new cage before that, since Pulla's current one is made out of old rat cages put together to form levels. It works well for Pulla, since he's big and chunky, but Posso is the smallest of the girls and could likely wiggle out through the bars if she wanted to. But I could at least start focusing on just Pulla and Posso getting to know each other. I'm mainly worried that Suti would freak out about it since she can smell Pulla on Posso (like she did earlier). Bit of a tough situation...
Maybe the safest bet would be to have a Posso-proof cage at the ready, but not containing Pulla yet, so that if things go bad and Suti really decides to freak about it, I'll have an extra cage for before I can make new cage arrangements.
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Jun 13, 2021 10:51:01 GMT
I think pairing Posso and Pulla would probably be the simplest at this point.
If you wanted to pursue the group of four, I wonder if meets just between Pulla and Suti might be the way forward, so that you avoid aggro between the girls after the meets. If it goes badly or you don't see any progress it might help you make the decision that pairing Pulla and Posso is the way forward.
Don't forget that going for two pairs now doesn't mean it has to be that way forever, you can always try again eg. when everyone is past 18 months old.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Jun 13, 2021 11:34:39 GMT
I think pairing Posso and Pulla would probably be the simplest at this point. If you wanted to pursue the group of four, I wonder if meets just between Pulla and Suti might be the way forward, so that you avoid aggro between the girls after the meets. If it goes badly or you don't see any progress it might help you make the decision that pairing Pulla and Posso is the way forward. Don't forget that going for two pairs now doesn't mean it has to be that way forever, you can always try again eg. when everyone is past 18 months old.
Well, the last time I tried getting just Pulla and Suti to socialize, it seemed to make Suti simply be more outright aggressive with Pulla - and since Pulla had no one else to focus on, he was very quick to answer the aggression. Looking back on it, I think that actually accelerated Suti's aggression behavior a lot because it was kind of like pressing the issue, for her. I think Suti just isn't ready to accept him at all at this point. For now, getting functional pairs together, and possibly trying to make it work by introducing pairs to each other later would be a good thing. Pulla would certainly appreciate one cage mate more than no cage mates.
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Jun 13, 2021 13:34:20 GMT
Lol I'm very pleased to have come up with such a bad idea that it probably helps your decision
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Jun 13, 2021 15:47:53 GMT
Ha! It's okay, it's not a bad suggestion, just seems to be a big no-no for Suti right now I gave Pulla and Posso some one-on-one time today. Posso wasn't totally receptive, and Pulla is back to his weird BS about seemingly honestly believing that the girls will be totally taken with him if he just nips them on the rump enough. But there is obviously a lot more respectful relationship between them than the other girls. Posso told him off very vocally each time Pulla tried something stupid, and Pulla backed off very quickly and did not seem to get agitated or bothered about it. They went around the kitchen on their own a lot, and came together every once in a while to sniff and inspect each other. So they were a bit tense and vary after a break, but I think they will start getting along very well again. Posso also seems to be the kind of degu who gets more brave when she's not with her pack. She's happy to be all submissive and meek when others are there to handle things, but now that her sisters weren't present, she was a lot more active, exploratory and intrested in everything. In that sense, this individual intro time is also good because it gives me a better opportunity to get to know her. She generally hangs back when I interact with them, but now she was totally intrested in climbing on me and examining me as well. It's a really big difference. This also reinforces my view that Suti is a very merciless little dictator! Pulla had barely any real physical contact with Posso at all, but Suti could still smell him on her, and oh boy, she did NOT like that one bit. She spent a good half-hour beating poor Posso up, mounting her, forcefully grooming her and screaming at her to make sure she's not harboring any kind of sedition against her glorious kingdom. Posso retaliated to some degree, but mostly accepted it. I'm kind of unsure how to actually proceed with this. First of all, I obviously really need to get the back-up cage ASAP. But second, it looks really sketchy to actually keep doing this while Posso has to still live in the same cage as them, and essentially get punished each time I take her out to hang with Pulla, but at the same time I'm not sure that they'd get along in the same cage with Pulla either just yet. And forcing Posso to be alone in a cage also seems cruel... I wonder if it would be possible to mask Pulla's smell on Posso somehow? I did try to give them a sand bath so they'd all smell the same, but that didn't seem to do much...
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Jun 14, 2021 19:05:28 GMT
They need to have daily access to the same sand bath, so that they all smell the same all the time. So half the day in each cage. That will help, but it will take a few days for the shared scent to help mask things.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Jun 14, 2021 19:15:34 GMT
I don't leave it in the cage freely since their sand bathing vessel is one of those old hamster carry boxes (they're nice since the sand doesn't run out), but I do give them at least an hour a day to sand bathe per cage, in the same sand. So I think they both have a lot of each other's smells, but Suti seems to be really alert about a fresher Pulla smell (since Posso doesn't have time to bathe a lot before Suti jumps on her) on Posso...
I got a backup cage from the pet store today. It's smaller than I would have preferred (they were out of large bird cages), but it will do in a crisis situation as a temporary measure. I think it will also do well if I have to house a degu after surgery or something like that in the future.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Jun 15, 2021 16:50:09 GMT
Pulla and Posso went to the kitchen today again. Pulla seems to have remembered that biting the girls is not a good way to socialize and stopped doing that, which meant that Posso was a lot more ok with him being up close. She did have to rebuff his humping advances multiple times, though. Pulla has this really stupid tactic where he just kind of... awkwardly waddles onto the girl while standing on his back legs, apparently hoping that the girl just won't notice if he's slow enough. Posso does notice though, and she literally SLAPS him in the face when she gets fed up with it. Pulla mostly took it in stride and humbly backed off, but it'd be good if he wasn't so persistent about it. I think it'd be good to get to a point where I can get them to meet up inside the same cage. Pulla would likely be a bit less handsy if he realized that the girl could be a cagemate and not just a humping target...
Things were mostly the same with Suti afterwards again. She's incredibly territorial, and I don't think she even realizes Posso is her own sister until she has had some time to process the fact that she's not an intruder despite the smell. There's half-hour period or more where she's absolutely engaging in terror tactics to get her Posso out of the cage, like chasing her and harrying her and dropkicking her with hit-and-run tactics. But after that she does seem to calm down, and I've never seen things pick up again afterwards, after they've calmed. It's like she's so wired and wound to go off on Pulla that his smell makes her berserk for a while. She even seems apologetic about it afterwads and huddles with her a lot.
It's probably fair to say that Limppu (who was the oldest and bravest at one point) is absolutely at the bottom of the pecking order. When these fights happen, she huddles away in a corner and simply does not do anything, and I've never seen her fight with anyone or even argue. She just submits. Posso at least fights back against Suti when she gets mad, but Limppu looks like she's figured that there's no reason to squabble for social position in a cage. She's just happy when things are calm and she can huddle up with the others.
(It's a different story when there's seeds on offer. Seeds are the only thing Limppu cares about, it seems. She's ready to go to war over seeds!)
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Jun 15, 2021 21:20:46 GMT
Your poor girls! And Pulla! They sound quite out of sorts with things right now. Not frightfully so, but enough that they are uncertain. Are they four months old now, or do I remember they were born in December? I think I may be getting them mixed up with other pups.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Jun 15, 2021 22:50:40 GMT
Your poor girls! And Pulla! They sound quite out of sorts with things right now. Not frightfully so, but enough that they are uncertain. Are they four months old now, or do I remember they were born in December? I think I may be getting them mixed up with other pups. They are just about four months right now, being born on the 13th (Limppu) or the 18th (Posso and Suti) of February. And yeah, I'd agree that they seem to be uncertain and a bit insecure about things. They're growing up and trying to figure things out at the moment. The worst issue is, of course, how absolutely territorial Suti has become. She seems to have ended up figuring that she absolutely does not like Pulla at all. Other than that, I don't think there's been anything all that severe. It does feel like Suti's huge personality kind of represses the other girls, since Limppu has become very meek and Posso seems totally different when she's in the kitchen without the other girls, but I guess that's just part of how the pack hierarchy works.
Luckily, Pulla seems to take all this rather in stride. If anything, hanging out with the girls, even if he does get slapped, seems to have made him more energetic. I think it's the fact that he's become very bonded to me, and even if the girls are not behaving like he'd hope they would be, he can always just rely on me for emotional and social support. I haven't noticed any negative developments in his behavior, he's like he's always been, but seems to have a lot more energy to run around and do things.
A stray though that I'm having is that since Pulla does seem to be as stable as he is, I wonder if it might actually be for the best to wait until the girls are out of this temperamental puberty phase before trying to see if they would be more agreeable to introductions. Him and Posso do get along better, but at the same time I'm a bit worried if taking Posso away from the group might end up causing issues for them. Suti and Limppu are not directly related, after all, and I imagine it might actually be that if real aggressions starts happening, it might happen between the non-siblings. It's not as if Pulla's miserable as he is, after all.
But I don't know. Maybe I'm just getting cold feet and I should try to go forward with things. It just feels rather messy right now, with a lot of moving parts and potential issues.
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Jun 16, 2021 5:35:33 GMT
Being side by side, there is comfort for him in knowing there are other degus very near. That's better than NO degus near. The thing with introductions, you don't have a deadline that you absolutely have to make. You have the freedom to take your time. So don't worry about taking your time. You can always evaluate on a bi-weekly basis, monthly basis, or whatever happens as the pups grow and change. Lots can happen in a very short period of time. I don't think this is cold feet . . . this is realizing just how complex their relationships are, as are their personalities.
This is why we recommend that people read and understand our generalized introductions/fighting guide AND stay in touch with us so that we can help them through the day to day challenges. It is truly a complex game of chess! You move they move, you can see 7 steps ahead, they move, you have to back track and watch out for the traps they just laid. It's . . . an adventure that takes time, fierce determination, and more patience then you even imagined you had. A great sense of humor also goes a long way.
You're doing great!
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Jun 16, 2021 9:18:22 GMT
Yeah, I should remember that there's no real need to hurry with this. I've seen already that Pulla isn't in agony from not having cage mates for the moment, and right now I can give him a lot of time and attention in any case. The girls are certainly not crying out to be with him, not even Posso. For now, I think the first priority is to keep things steady and normal up until the girls have matured more. I'd be bolder with this, but at this point Suti is giving out clear signals that she's absolutely not having any of it, and is actually prepared to attack her own sisters (biological and adopted) if that's what it takes to not be associated with Pulla in any way.
I'll be trying it out every once in a while to gauge their reactions, and I'll let them bathe in the same sand and exchange smells since that doesn't seem to set anyone off. But keeping things stable is more important than trying to force an introduction that is looking like it might actually destabilize things.
Posso and Suti have scuffled a bit this morning, mostly just regular boxing, but now that Posso's loyality to the Great Leader Suti isn't in question any more, it's been friendly in nature and Posso quickly submits to be groomed and mounted. That's what I want to see, everyone getting along. I wonder if it's normal that Limppu doesn't get treated like that, though. From my reading, she's at the bottom of their hierarchy, but she never gets roughed up at all. I wonder if it's the fact that she's already made it clear that she's totally submitting? It's likely that since Suti is both young and still working out on her dominant position, she's especially keen to posture a lot about it and make sure it solidifies.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Jun 22, 2021 15:54:58 GMT
I've been mostly keeping things steady, and there have been no fighting issues or other problems for the past week. One thing I've noticed is that Suti is possibly stressed about something. She has a tendency to cry out in her sleep if there's a noise (like I cough softly), and I've noticed that her tail tip is looking very nackered. Most of the white hairs have vanished and the tip itself looks as if someone's been picking at it. I'm not sure what I could do to help her with this. Suti just seems to be high-strung in general. Probably since she has a lot of concerns about being the big alpha degu.
Other than that, things have been mostly stable and like I've described already in earlier updates. I haven't brought anyone out to the kitchen for a few days since it's been so incredibly hot and there's no AC in the kitchen space. It's hot even in the room where I keep them because I have a lousy AC unit, but at least it's habitable. Taking the degus out to be very active in a 30 celsius space (85+ fahrenheits) is a bad idea. I've been trying to give them other things to do in the cage in the meanwhile.
I have weighed the girls to chart their growth, though. Surprisingly, Suti is in the lead, weighing in at 190 grams. Posso was the next at around 180 grams, and weirdly enough Limppu, the oldest girl, is just 170 grams. I'm starting to suspect that Limppu is some sort of a runt of her litter. She's small, submissive and much meeker now that she's grown a bit. She's also weirdly fluffy, compared to the others. I don't mean that she's puffed up, but rather she just has a lot more fur than the others, and looks bigger than she is. She's also very relaxed when handled. I don't think she's ill or anything, she's still very active and shows no signs of being unwell, it's just that she's small and meek.
Pulla has also gained quite a bit of weight, so much so that I'm going to start actually moderating his pellet intake a bit. He's up to 242 grams from just 200 after his second surgery a few months back, and part of it is likely the fact that his neutering is already affecting his metabolism and whatnot. There is a risk of obesity in neutered degus, after all, so it's best to watch his eating habits a bit.
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Jun 23, 2021 0:02:12 GMT
242 isn't huge, though. All three of my boys were 300 grams. If they had gone down to 242 I would have been panicking. LOL! I have heard that most of the degus sold in North America tend to be of the larger sized variety of degu, and many of the those in the European market are the smaller variety, so maybe yours will be smaller in general. I wouldn't personally be worried about anything up to 250.
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Jun 23, 2021 10:48:33 GMT
Weight quite often goes in dominance order. It can also take a long time before a degu becomes relaxed in the position of top degu, especially if they are highly strung anyway.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Jul 20, 2021 17:52:23 GMT
Well, finally time to kick this topic up a bit. After a straight month of insanely hot days, it's cooled down to manageable levels, so I figured I would let everyone out to the kitchen and see how they're behaving right now. And surprisingly, it seems like they're behaving better! Much of their kitchen behavior was pretty similar to what it has been (Pulla and Posso socializing while the others mostly ignore them and run around), but afterwards, there was no arguing or screaming at all. Suti didn't seem to mind the situation in any way and didn't harass Posso at all, despite the fact Pulla clearly marked Posso and got all his smell on her he could. That seems like a really positive development. Maybe it means that Suti has become more comfortable about her leadership and doesn't feel the need to be so hawkish about it. Whatever the case, I'll do another tryout in the near future to see whether it holds or if Suti is just a bit slow to get back into it. Things have been very stable and normal otherwise, although Suti and Posso are still very shy when it comes to handling. Limppu is really easy to handle though, and seems to like being on my lap. I've been taking her to sit with me for a bit when I'm on the PC, and she's obviously very curious about everything
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Jul 20, 2021 18:42:58 GMT
This is AWESOME!! I am thrilled with this news, Teemu!
I love how Limppu is developing! Definitely not the direction I expected from what she was like when she first joined you. She is becoming a real sweetheart, and I am so glad you are taking her with you. You are making a lovely bond with her!
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Jul 20, 2021 21:41:05 GMT
Limppy is definitely very surprising! I was sure she'd be the loud, dominant one, but it seems like she's perfectly fine being on the bottom of their hierarchy and just going along with things. Maybe she's just too calm to fuss about things like that
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Jul 21, 2021 2:48:21 GMT
I think a key component to this is the home and the habitat she is now in. It is stable, it has lots of space, she gets free roam time, she is bonded with her cage mates and she has humans that are genuinely interacting with her on her terms. She is a thriving and happy girl!
|
|
|
Post by klbishop on Aug 2, 2021 17:14:23 GMT
Afternoon, Im jumping to the end of the thread so sorry if there are duplications. Ive mainly had boys the past decade, my triplets were neutered and in Miguel and Pablos later years (10 - 11) we rescued a Mum (3) and 2 x daughters (1).
The boys seemed to loose 5 years, they were bouncing about like teenagers and very loved up. Weve had 4 introductions in our clan and this was the smoothest. Miguel passed away at 11.5 surrounded by his groupies. Now we have much oestrogen in our household and tantrums, I miss the boys!!
|
|