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Post by degulife88 on Mar 11, 2018 23:23:22 GMT
Hi everyone- any help would be appreciated 
Sorry if this is a silly question but I was wondering how more calcium that phosphorous helps degu teeth? Everything I've read seems to suggest that getting this ratio right will help STOP teeth growing too long/roots growing upwards/inwards. I always thought that calcium helped teeth to grow (promote growth). Therefore, how would this work at inhibiting growth?? Any ideas??
Also, does anyone know the daily amount in grams that is recommended. On degutopia I saw an amount with a -1 squared, but my ignorance prevents me from understanding what this means exactly?
Thank you so much for your patience and help.
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Post by Emziedee on Mar 12, 2018 1:15:50 GMT
Yes someone knows the correct ratios, the mighty moletteuk! 😃 she’ll no doubt be along soon to answer |
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Post by ntg on Mar 12, 2018 6:44:30 GMT
Okay, so first I'm going to link you to a few threads with relevant info for you regarding not only Ca:P but vitamin D too. The Ca:P ratio deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17319/important-recent-research-dental-healthVit D - an experiment deguworld.proboards.com/thread/21679/degu-dental-issues-results-experimentDegu feeding guide deguworld.proboards.com/thread/16425/degu-feeding-guideGuide to degu dental health deguworld.proboards.com/thread/21967/guide-degu-dental-healthCommercial food chart deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17365/commercial-food-chartVeg, seed & nut nutrition charts deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15602/vegetable-seed-nut-nutrition-chartsUV lamp deguworld.proboards.com/thread/19147/interesting-page-on-providing-lightSo basically, the ratio that's published as being best for dental health is a Ca:P of 2:1 with around 1% total of daily calcium. Now this is stretching my knowledge back quite far - 2012 to be exact - but the absolute truth is that not enough research has been carried out in this area so there may be a good safety margin in that figure (Ca binds to P at a 1:1 ratio in the body, so throughout different species a Ca:P of 1+:1 is needed for other functions eg healthy bone remodelling). For example, ruminants have a tolerance of 1-7:1. However, since we have to work with what we know from the limited studies carried out, we use the 2:1 ratio mentioned previously. More recently, bouncy has been supplementing her degus with vit D drops on top of the 2:1 ratio and the presence of a UV laamp. She's noticed that - with her boy with dental disease - he goes longer times between tooth spur formations and, presumably, lowered rate of root growth (although I don't know if prior xrays have been carried out to confirm that). However, she does feed a natural diet with no commercial pellets (which contain vit D). The importance of this is that too much vit D can be just as bad as too little, but with a natural diet, there is virtually no dietary vit D present so you either need to expose them to UV light or supplement a lá degus international/bouncy's method. If feeding a commercial diet then they should be getting sufficient vit D and yasmin's vet recommended her against supplementation alongside pellets for that very reason. So, in summary, Ca:P of 2:1 with a calcium intake of ~1% Vitamin D supplementation is a good idea if feeding a natural diet, if feeding a 50% natural or fully commercial diet, maybe just provide a UV lamp as they can't overdose on vit D that way. |
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Post by ntg on Mar 12, 2018 7:21:28 GMT
Oh and sorry, I thought the question as to why Ca:P matters with tooth growth was in another thread. Short answer is it's complicated  Practically everything relies on calcium amd you have 3 types of calcium pools that are important - intracellular (within cells), bone and blood calcium Intracellular calcium is important for intracellular signaling, enzyme activation and muscle contractions. Blood calcium is where the phosphorous begins to come into the story - concentration of phosphorus in blood is essentially identical to that of calcium. It basically sops up the phosphorous in the blood as they both bind to proteins. Bone calcium - well you've probably heard plenty about calcium being good for your bones - and that's because your bones are constantly being remodelled by our osteoclasts and osteoblast cells. 99% of bone calcium is tied up to structure whereas the remaining 1% can be switched into blood calcium if it's getting a little low. 85% of phosphates are found in bones too. Basically, the bones are a store for both Ca and P in the body and it'll take from there when the levels in the blood are getting low if the intestinal intake from dietary calcium and phosphorous isn't good. Then the kidneys are involved in removing any excess calcium from the body. There's a whole host of regulation factors involved with the balance of calcium but the only one we're actively interested in is vitamin D as it increases absorption of calcium from the intestine when the calcium in the blood is low, preventing it from being taken from the bone. If we constantly gave a Ca:P less than 1:1 then the body would basically keep taking calcium from the bone to maintain the level in the blood. Similarly, without vit D, there is no signalling going on in the body to uptake calcium from the intestine so, again, it starts relying on the bone source. Now the bones do compensate for this by losing density but that's when problems begin to occur with chronic loss of calcium. Now for teeth formation. Degu teeth are constantly growing. That's a constant need for a good Ca:P balance and vit D intake otherwise the formation of the teeth begins to get screwy (technical term ). To quote a human dental health site (as the basics of tooth formation is pretty much the same): Now onto the herbivores - I'll have to get back to this later as the articles on rabbit dental health and dietary intake I'm wanting to look at may have to be accessed at work thanks to pay walls  |
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Post by bouncy on Mar 12, 2018 7:50:28 GMT
Yes, ntg is correct! I embarked on my vitamin D3 project a year ago, but have been working in consultation with my vet. Incidentally, he's known as a goo man, lectures on them, and offers referrals. I do feed a 100% natural diet, just dried forage, hay, and my own seed mix. I gave them a UVA/UVB lamp so they could naturally make vitamin D themselves. As it's on the top level of four, I still wasn't convinced (my own paranoia), and my goo needed dental treatment within his normal routine. I then decided to add vitamin D3 to their water. His dentals have now gone from every three months to every five. When I took him for his last appointment, the vet also confirmed that there were no signs of vitamin D toxicity, but we're monitoring. I am planning on getting another set of xrays done to assess the condition of his roots, but that's going to be later in the year. Two things to bear in mind: 1) I spent weeks on the Internet, reading, gathering information, discussing with my vet etc before beginning my experiment. The whole project is my decision, and certainly isn't a controlled experiment. The latter would require a much bigger sample of degus, a longer time frame, and regular sample testing/monitoring. 2) So much is NOT known about degus generally, including basics of body function. Most importantly we don't know why degus develop dental issues. Most of the information out there is extrapolated from other rodents, such as rabbits. We all know degus are unique, so this isn't necessarily a sound supposition. You mentioned in your query that you want to slow down the rate of tooth growth. Whilst it would be brilliant if we could isolate this to root growth, the fact is that all rodent teeth grow constantly. To change or slow this could be dangerous to our fluffs, and it would be better to look at providing better ways to help them deal with their teeth themselves before looking at supplements. We're not talking here about lumps of wood, because these won't assist the molars. Primarily, we're looking at a good quality hay. If you can slowly introduce it, fresh grass and forage provides better dental wear. Only once you have exhausted this approach, should you consider other options. As always, we're here to help. Feel free to ask, or even just bounce ideas around |
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 12, 2018 13:40:48 GMT
You're probably already overwhelmed with information, but as I understand it, too much phosphorus and not enough calcium stimulates poor quality and excessive tooth growth in all directions. If you look at the studies in this link there are photos that show this accelerated growth after only one month of being fed less calcium than phosphorus deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17319/important-recent-research-dental-health I had a eureka moment when I saw this, as previously I only thought that mineral content in the diet would affect tooth structure, when in reality incorrect mineral (or vitamin D) content in the diet can affect growth rate and abnormalities in growth direction. |
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Post by deguconvert on Mar 13, 2018 15:49:34 GMT
WOW!! NTG, Bouncy, Moletteuk! WELL DONE!!
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Post by claire on Mar 15, 2018 10:18:01 GMT
Bouncy do you have a dental forage list and a list of seeds you feed i currently use rat rations seed mix. I'd like to start feeding my boys something I think is more balanced to dental health as 2 of mine have poor teeth.
Obviously I know it's not official it's your experiment and theirs no guarantees ect but I'm going to be honest here and say I just don't know where to start.
Currently feed forage and biscuits and that seems an ok balance for mine but I have no idea what the balance of calcium phosphorus is in the forage I feed.
I can't get my boys to eat hay ive tried every kind i can buy / order so this is why ive kept with the nuggets.
It's so complicated I'm trying to find a basic dental balanced diet I can start them on if that makes sense?
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Post by ntg on Mar 15, 2018 10:30:19 GMT
The Ca and P levels in forage aren't well known, however, we do know that a good supply of forage (preferably fresh where possible) helps dental health. We have no particular list of plants that are "good for teeth" for a specific reason other than grinding but bouncy uses Hansemann's mixes like the degu SAB mix like quite a few of us do. The seed mix you have has been formulated for the Ca:P ratio too so don't worry about that! Which pellets do you use? |
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Post by bouncy on Mar 15, 2018 10:36:57 GMT
Sure! It's not scientific, but.......
I give mine unlimited meadow hay and Hansemann forage as their main food source. They get to munch on dandelion root when they come out each evening.
Their current seed mix is equal parts of dill, celery, poppy, coriander, sesame, nigella, anise, fennel, and cumin. I then mix in milled hemp, some pumpkin seeds, and jumbo oats. Each group gets a small bowl every 7-10 days, although my mum gets a bit carried away because she likes watching the squabbles.
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Post by claire on Mar 15, 2018 10:52:34 GMT
I use science select pellets. I use those one day then the Jr farm degu food the next although I may stop this and stay with pellets? Not sure
At the mo they will eat enchicena ( can't spell it) raspberry leave parsley stalks the rat rations flower mix plantain on and off dandelion root puffed rice and dried peas as treats and the dental boys get half a walnut and oats when their weight drops.
So I'm pretty much on the right track? Just keep experimenting with the forage. I know things like milk thistle have been suggested for good calcium forage not that they are keen on it but it's new to them was wondering if much is known or if its still guess work.
Also still planning on getting a lamp when time/ funds allow.
I may have to brave the hansmanne sight one day lol just been trying to figure out which specific things they like right now. The grew up on jf farm feeds before i wanted to improve their diet lol
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Post by ntg on Mar 15, 2018 11:10:59 GMT
Which JR Farm food? Last time we got info off them the Ca:P was terrible for every food but the grainless feeds for guinea-pigs and degus. If feeding a commercial diet then pellets are best for dental health as it stops them from eating selectively. |
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Post by claire on Mar 15, 2018 11:18:10 GMT
Jr farm feast for degus. Really this time I got it more for variety. They have been having science select every day probably 7 months now? If it's rubbish I'll find something else for variety. Didn't want them to get bored of the science select that I know is a good balance was all.
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 15, 2018 19:28:20 GMT
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Post by claire on Mar 16, 2018 16:35:38 GMT
Thankyou mole few tweaks and I think I'm on the right track they get fresh kitchen herbs regularly anyway it's their favourite |
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