Interesting page on providing UV light

[moletteuk]

www.arcadia-bird.com/small-furry-pets/

I found this page on the Arcadia website, which provides some interesting info about UV light for small animals, with them particularly mentioning that degus as diurnal animals living at relatively high altitude are likely to have a fairly high requirement. I thought it was interesting that they said it is thought that small furry animals can absorb UV through their nose and eyelids and that animals are able to regulate the vit D they produce from UV far better than that provided synthetically.

The sun has just started reaching my girls' cage and they always instantly seek it out, so I might have to try getting a UV lamp.

[yasmin]

Thanks for posting this moletteuk. I just scanned the article but will give it a good read later today. This is a very important issue.

I started using a lamp for my birds (called "Avian Sun") and have been trying to figure out how to do the same for my degus.

Even though the room they are in gets alot of sunlight (windows on two sides, light streams in in the morning and hits the cages – often see goos basking in it), because our winters are so cold, most homes in Canada have double/triple pane windows to keep the cold out. These also keep some of the beneficial rays out.

I have a special bulb in the ceiling lamp in the degu room but doubt that it gets much light to them. I would ideally mount Avian Sun lamps around the degu cages but the problem is the cages I use are too tall for the standard lamp stands. It is important that the bulbs can be mounted at least 12 inches above where the animal will sit (not to the side as noted in this article) and ideally should be height adjustable, but even if I found a way to mount adjustable bulb holders to the ceilings, 5 of my goos are in the bottom half of cages where they will not be exposed to these lamps. Other than getting two more cages (I already have 3), I don't know what to do.

This thread could be a great place for people to share their setups/solutions/recommendations.

[moletteuk]

I contacted the Arcadia man who wrote the article and asked him for further advice.

He strongly recommends the Arcadia Parrot Pro UV Flood lamp (2.4% UVB, 12% UVA) fitted at the top of the cage, ideally about 12" above where the degus can sit. The size and flood of the lamp should allow areas of light and shade horizontally and vertically so the degus can choose to sit in the light or not.

I've just ordered one, so I'll give it a go. I found it for around £40 at Swell Reptiles (RFUK13 code for 10% off). Depending on where my lot sit, they might be 12" or around 24" away, the angle will be different depending on where they sit too I guess I'll figure it out when it comes.

Like you, I've been thinking about this for at least a couple of years but the choice is a bit bewildering with T5 tubes, T8 tubes, ordinary E27 bulbs and then controllers, reflectors, guards etc. Anyway this all in one solution seemed to make it simple, even if it seems a bit pricey, I don't suppose it is in the grand scheme of things. And, fitting the heater in the cage a few months ago turned out to be much simpler than I anticipated, I wish I had done it sooner, so I'm hoping fitting the light will go fairly smoothly too.

Could you make some sort of bracket or stand for yours, Yasmin? This shouldn't be too difficult for the top layer of your cages. Perhaps if you used a guard you could squeeze one in the ceiling of the bottom layer?

The Arcadia man sent me a couple more articles, but I can't reproduce the whole things for you due to copyright, but I'll have a look through and quote some of the pertinent bits.

[yasmin]

Thanks for the info, moletteuk.

Will ask hubby about finding/making a bracket/stand. This will work for two of the enclosures.

A third enclosure is the top two units of a three-unit Midwest Critter Nation; it is so tall that it almost scrapes the ceiling. It, however, probably gets exposure to the bulb in the light socket.

For the other two enclosures (bottom units of Critter Nation cages) if I make a guard it will bring the bulb too close to where the degus sit.

(So happy that this topic is being discussed and that we can exchange ideas. )

[moletteuk]

Can you tell us any more about your experiences with your birds? Have you always used UV light for them? Did you notice any change in behavious when you started, or when you put a new bulb in?

For your lower cages, maybe you could mount the lamps on the outside above a place where they like to perch at the edge/ front of the cage, so the horizontal angle wouldn't be too bad. You could probably improve the direction of the light with a home made reflector that angled the light down and forwards into the cage. Probably worth trying installing something for one or two of your setups and see how the degus react first. Do you have access to the same products as us in UK/ Europe? Avian Sun are available in UK, and I think Exo Terra are another reputable brand.

I wish I understood more about how the vit D3 and calcium (& phosphorus & magnesium) interact and in turn, how the body sheds excess from the body and the interaction on the kidneys. I wonder if vit D can help your degus in particular use the calcium better so they get the benefit for their teeth without the load on the kidneys?

(you know you can start any topic you like yourself, but let me know if there is anything on your mind )

[Maravilla]

Mar 11, 2015 15:41:57 GMT moletteuk said:

www.arcadia-bird.com/small-furry-pets/

I found this page on the Arcadia website, which provides some interesting info about UV light for small animals, with them particularly mentioning that degus as diurnal animals living at relatively high altitude are likely to have a fairly high requirement.

What is missing is some information about the height degus are living in... what do they mean by "relatively high altitude"?
Degus do live between the coast of the Pacific Ocean up to heights of around 1200m, something I would not consider "relatively high altitude". It is said that the uv-index increases a 10% per 1000m.
What on the other hand is missing and also influences the amount of UV light is the huge difference in distance from the equator. Degus live in an area between 28° and 35° south. In the old world this would mean somewhere between North Africa and the Mediterranean (even Spain would be excluded).

[titchycatnipsandwich]

moletteuk, in humans vitamin D is essential for utilising calcium correctly within the body. It's a fat soluble vitamin, which makes it difficult to excrete in overdose, but as most adults in the UK are some form of deficient anyway it's only a problem if you're overdosing on vitamin supplements. The Wikipedia page is quite accurate at this moment in time; vitamin d3 (colecalciferol) is created under UVB light in the skin, then activated by enzymes in the liver, then enzymes in the kidneys, to form the active moiety.

This active compound circulates in the blood and activates specific receptors in the intestines (to trigger the production of calcium uptake channels to increase intestinal absorption) and throughout the body (to regulate blood levels of calcium and phosphate by moving them into and out of cells). It is also used to encourage bone growth and remodelling, both by increasing blood calcium levels and something else I can't remember.

Low levels of vitamin D are fixed by supplementation and UVB light, toxic levels fixed by stopping supplementation and restricting calcium. Interestingly, restricting sunlight has no effect on vit d toxicity because an equilibrium is reached during synthesis in the skin - if too much is being made, it is degraded by the process used to make more- so you cannot overdose from sunlight unless something is wrong with that enzyme pathway.

I'm not sure about whether it would be useful for reducing the load on the kidneys. I know that in human kidney failure, the broken kidneys cannot metabolise the vitamin d3 to the active molecule, so patients become vitamin d and calcium deficient- in that circumstance, we have to supplement differently, with activated vitamin d (alfacalcidol, in case you're interested). 

Is that the kind of info you were wanting to know?

[jamiee]

So, do you need a UV light even if the degus are exposed to plenty of natural light? Mine get plenty of sunlight, as they are in a corner between two windows, which often have sunlight going directly through them.

[moletteuk]

Maravilla I agree the altitude is likely to be a minor point. I think the main thing from the proximity to the equator is that there are similar levels of daylight all through the year, and that a bigger influence on annual variation of UV light is likely to be seasonal weather variation. I think there is more rain in the winter and therefore more cloud cover. Anyway, I think the broad point that struck me was that as diurnal animals, degus are one of the pet species that are more likely to benefit from UV light. We should probably bear in mind that these articles are written by a person in the UV lamp industry. Also, just a couple of centimeters difference in proximity to the light seems to vastly alter the UV index of exposure, so I think more care is needed at this end of the calculation, rather than at the Chile end.

@titchy Thanks titchy, that was interesting about the synthesis regulating itself. My head is really a jumble of thoughts about calcium and vitamin D and oxalates and sources of calcium and various forms of vitamin D and all the health implications. And the need to provide enough calcium for good bone and dental health but the real risk of oversupply and deposition damaging the kidneys. We don't have enough information on oxalates, much of the natural calcium in the diet either comes as calcium oxalate or associated with other oxalates. Oxalates strip calcium from the body, but some rodent species, particularly desert species have specialised bacteria in the gut to digest oxalates and make the calcium available, but we aren't sure if degus are one of them (although we do know that one of their favourite species in the wild, chenopodium, are high in oxalates, so we could infer that they are predisposed to deal with them).

I guess the crux of the issue regarding UV and vit D is highlighted by Yasmin's situation with having several degus with dental disease, she provides many fresh plants and works hard to offer sufficient calcium in the diet. She finds this has helped her degus, but she has one degu who has ended up with a kidney stone, so presumably has calcium being deposited. I'm wondering whether supplying UV so the degus can form and regulate their own vit D causes the calcium to be taken up by the degu body better and does this then mean that there will be less excess calcium around to be deposited in the kidneys, or more calcium floating around that will be deposited in the kidneys.

We could be overestimating the influence of UV made vit D on the calcium, and it may be that levels for those of us still feeding some proportion of pellets are adequate, and it's more of an important issue for 100% natural diets. We need to remember that it's fresh forage that is anecdotally the best thing for dental health. Perhaps the UV light might have other more varied and subtle health effects as vit D is increasingly found to be important for all kinds of cell functions.

Anyway, it seems the risks are low and there are potential quality of life gains to be made. I keep coming back in my mind to what great sun lovers my degus are, I think it's important to listen to the signals and signs our pets give us.


Modern double glazing can block over 95% of UV light, so indoor degus will get almost no UV light naturally (unless you can open the window).

jamiee UV lighting is still experimental in degu keeping. As you are feeding commercial food this isn't of immediate concern for you. If you were interested and wanted to try a UV light, I think it would be more interesting to wait a few months so you could compare their behaviour and health before and after.

[jamiee]

Thanks for the info. I probably won't get a light for them, as they are a bit out of my price range, and, as you said, they are on commercial food.

[yasmin]

Mar 12, 2015 17:14:49 GMT moletteuk said:

Can you tell us any more about your experiences with your birds? Have you always used UV light for them? Did you notice any change in behavious when you started, or when you put a new bulb in?

I have not always used UV light for my birds thinking that, because I have always had them in rooms that get plenty of sunlight, they didn't need it. But in the past two years I have had two birds pass away from egg binding related issues. (I am not trying to breed them – they just sometimes produce eggs "spontaneously".) Heard from another bird owner and read on the odd blog by bird breeders that once they began using these "sun" lamps, that their birds have been ill less and have had less egg-laying complications. So, I started using the lamps about half a year ago. Haven't noticed any behavioral changes – just hoping that it is helping improve their health and that none of them ever has an egg issue again.

[yasmin]

Mar 12, 2015 17:14:49 GMT moletteuk said:

I wonder if vit D can help your degus in particular use the calcium better so they get the benefit for their teeth without the load on the kidneys? )

Yes, that is exactly why I want to start using these bulbs for my degus.

Mounting the lamps horizontally is an idea – you've got my brain working on this.

I think we do have access here in Canada to the same brands as you do in the UK.

[moletteuk]

I got my Parrot Pro lamp fitted yesterday.

This is what it looked like on arrival (A4 sheet under box for scale)


The fitting seems a bit flimsy and you need to be careful with the bulb as there are a couple of bits sticking out of the reflector that could easily break it.


This is where we fitted it at the top of the cage (note that they can't reach any of it or cable)


We had to compromise on the fitting position due to the vent in the top of the cage, but we also needed an inbetween position laterally between shelves 3 and 4(top) because the degus obviously use both shelves so we need to minimise the horizontal angle of the light to both shelves (it's not good to have the light in their eyes too much). Shelf 4 is about 30cm below the light, shelf 3 about 60cm (maybe a bit more). Depending how it goes, I might fit a basking area at mid height between the two.

Flossie and Molly trying it out



I've only had it switched on for half an hour at lunchtime and the same again late afternoon. They seem to like it They spent some time underneath it on shelf 4 and then after a few minutes would move and sit in the light on shelf 3. They spent time bobbing about and then basking for a while, they were sitting in some unusual places, presumably testing how it felt with the light mainly hitting different parts of their body. They did seem to squint their eyes up more than usual when they settled to bask. Presumably, suddenly being able to see the UV spectrum is a bit of a shock to their eyes - which is why I kept the sessions fairly short and will gradually increase the time on.

[saddlers]

Fascinating stuff, it will be interesting to see how this plays out

[yasmin]

Cool!

Hey, if I bring down the second/third level half shelf so that the goos are further away from the lamp itself that might work for at least three of groups of my degus. I will see if I can adjust the half ramps far enough downwards for this to work for my goos that have access to top levels.

As for my bottom level goos: This morning, I noticed that quite a bit of sun comes in through the windows in the degu room at an angle (my bottom level goos were happily basking in tit). Thought maybe if I set up an Avian Sun lampstand (they are adjustable and quite tall) next to but slightly above the bottom-level cages, perhaps enough light will come in on an angle without shining it into their eyes.

[Blarklark]

Makes alot of sense. Glad I saw this. Going to try to make a wooden cage with an area for a light like that .

[titchycatnipsandwich]

Thanks to a little place near me, run by a reptile guy who seems to have looked after \*everything\* that ever existed...




We now have light! I paid about £50 for the two bulbs, £4 for each bulb-holder (desk light), £5 for an extension lead and £5 for a timer switch (which doesn't work, so I'm currently on manually flicking the lights on and off...)

Which is brilliant, the goos are all fascinated by the light, but the added illumination is making me realise I could do with cleaning their cage glass...

The bulbs are 25W Exo-Terra reptile UVB100 energy saving E27 bulbs. I don't speak bulb, so it means very little to me, except that finding bulb-holders was a pain in the butt, and they shouldn't get too hot.

[Deleted]

Your enclosures are beautiful!

[bouncy]

Excellent! And yes, there's always a downside to more light lol.

My big boys do enjoy finding the closest perch to sunbathe on. I also use the energy saving bulbs, and they do create some heat. Now what happened to the photoshopped sunbathing goo...........  

[titchycatnipsandwich]

Jan 31, 2017 16:50:37 GMT @emdalliance said:

Your enclosures are beautiful!

My enclosures are the result of drawing what I wanted and taking the pictures to an engineer friend with a perfectionist streak and a lot of power tools But, my spatial awareness is lacking and while the two cages are *exactly* as big as I wanted them, they are bigger than I thought they'd be.

My main "woe" about the cages is that there isn't an easy way of hanging/fastening things to the walls of the cages. I either screw things in (and am doomed forever to have a screw hole that if unoccupied, is a tempting place to start an escape route for goos) or use aquarium sealant as a "glue" (which doesn't work for many things, most are too heavy for long-term sticking). The mesh "roof" gives me some options, but not many. But overall, the goos are happy with where they live, and I love that they only need cleaning when I can actually see a layer of poop on top of the shavings - until that point, which usually takes a month, it looks reasonably clean in there.

But the goos love the running space, there is room in the bottom left of each corner for a larger diameter wheel (Zoe and Nyota have one, River and Miho are still waiting for theirs). I was gifted a staple gun and mesh, and any time there's a genuine effort towards escaping I mesh over the developing hole and they grump off in disgust.