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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 2, 2017 9:25:01 GMT
My female Speedy finally burst. I did think she was getting big and wondered when she would give birth... Turnes out there was a reason for her size Try and count Not the best pictures in the world. Only one white kit. She's Pink White. This is often confused with albinism due to the pink skin, red eyes and white fur. In reality it's a mix between Whilson White (white fur, black eyes and grey skin) and Beige (beige fur, pink skin, red/brown eyes). They get the fur colour from the white and the skin and eye colour from the beige. Beige is often confused with a grey colour but their pink skin is a clear sign of them not being grey. Also they colour of the fur is actually more of a beige, but newcommers often have a hard time telling it's beige rather than grey. Mum is a homozygous pink white ebony possible TOV. Dad is a standard grey and carries some recessive genes. Not really happy about getting the recessives into my herd. Problem is I LOVE the light standard grey animals and they are near impossible to get if they do not have some recessive genes in them :/ The original agouti colouring of the greys is being breed out to get a more even coloured fur. I love the original grey colour but can't really breed them as I can't sell them. As my girl is homozygous beige (can't make homozygous wilson whites, they have a lethal factor when two genes for this colour mutation appears), they can't have standard kits only beige and pink white, as there's a 100% chance she passes the beige gene and a 50% chance she passes the wilson white gene. I does look like the beige kits have colouring on their tummies. This is what the ebony gene does (also refered to as wrap). As the wilson whites and pinks whites are white it's quite hard to tell if they are ebony or not, as ebony = colour on the belly and their normal belly colour is white with no ebony in them Sorry for the genetic ramble One of them had a bad start. It was laying flat on its belly having trouble moving the hind legs. I did call a couple of vets as I haven't experienced this before and euthanasia did cross my mind. She's all fine now. Apparently she got squished a bit when she was born and that made her hip lock up. Dad is still in with them. There is a possibility they will have a breedback. Some try and get their animals to do a breedback others believe this is the worst you can do. A breedback is when mum and dad breed again right after the birth. This can happen within the first 3-5 days after birth. Some pairs control this themselves and take breakes between litters while others can't control it. In my opinion it's a question of weighing up the negative vs the positive. Dad does help with taking care of the kids, so should be reintroduced after about 5 days if he is removed. If something is up with the kits or mum looks like she needs a helping hand I usually leave dad in with them. Because of the rough start the one kit had - and the number of kits - I descided to leave dad in with mum, but I think I'm going to remove him as they look to have settled in nicely.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 9:38:19 GMT
They're soooooo cute!!!! Aaaa!! Babies!!!!!! ❤❤❤❤❤
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 2, 2017 10:15:29 GMT
OMG Okay, so on the picture above you can see 4 kits... Hubby just found a 5. in the cage. I don't really know what to do... 4 okay but 5? That's a heck of a lot of kits or her to take care of.
4 beige. 3 girls at 34g (new one) 38g and 40g. 1 male at 44g 1 pink white at 38g.
I think I may need to find an other chinny mum with 1-2 kits to take on 1 or 2 of these kits... I've asked people who have experience whit this littersize and hope they come back with into on how to deal
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Post by zenaida on Jul 2, 2017 10:27:03 GMT
Wow! I've never seen chin kits! Would love more pictures/video! I also would love to hear more about the genetics stuff. I think it is very interesting!
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Kits
Jul 2, 2017 10:35:31 GMT
Post by darthchinchi on Jul 2, 2017 10:35:31 GMT
I can do a colourchart if anyone wants this? I have some illustrations of my own laying around I can add as a reference for the genetics. Can't add info on the genotype per say as it's mostly guesswork, and every time we get a new mutation it gets a new letter attatched to it but in reality we have no clue wich loci the specific genes are attatced to or how they may or may not work in relations to each other. We do know a lot but only due to breeding. There's a high risc of faulty information when breeding is your only mesurement as a lot relys on the human eye and possibilities.
Like normally chinchillas get 1-2 kits per litter, and then this little bugger turns on me and gives me 5. I know this is a possibility. Others get larger size litters, people even breed for larger size litters. We got a litter of 3 back in 2006. 6 litters had 2 kits in them and 9 litters had 1 kit in them. This is like 2-3 years worth of kits for us, in only 1 litter.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 10:52:31 GMT
A colour chart would be amazing!!!
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 2, 2017 16:20:29 GMT
Here you can actually see all 5. 4 beige and 1 pink white Mum looks to be doing just fine. I disturbed her a bit giving her an extra portion of pellets. She needs all the help she can get with this litter. Couldn't find little one. Turns out she was stuck suckling under mum and just hang on for the ride to the foodbowl. Looks like all are getting milk
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 2, 2017 18:55:28 GMT
Spamming you a bit with pictures All 5 siblings in a hat.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 20:21:41 GMT
I LOVE THEM THEY'RE LIKE GRUMPY BABY ELEPHANT/MONKEY/HIPPOS ❤❤❤😍😍😍
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Post by Bexi87 on Jul 2, 2017 20:42:54 GMT
Baby Elphmonippos?!
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Kits
Jul 3, 2017 5:27:16 GMT
via mobile
Post by darthchinchi on Jul 3, 2017 5:27:16 GMT
😂
I will go out and buy some milk for them today, to help out. It is a large litter... Everyone seems happy though. Me and the kids are on holiday and I forgot to turn my alarm clock off. When I got into the living room mum sat in another level and all the kits were running around exploring. We do have a bit of an issue with eyes not opening yes in a couple of them so I will try and wash them with saltwater later on. It's the same stuff used for human eyes. It is possible to make it yourself but I prefer buying it at the pharmacy.
I don't mind selling kits to live on their own. I would have liked if there'd been another boy though... If I can get my 12y old female to accept them we are going to keep 2 girls.
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Kits
Jul 4, 2017 14:20:09 GMT
via mobile
Post by darthchinchi on Jul 4, 2017 14:20:09 GMT
Okay, so one girl turned out to be a boy. The smallest girl is trying her luck with a fostermom with someone I know. She deserved a chance, lively and all but 100% sure she was going to die if I kept her. She has been ruffed up a bit an was very easy to give milk. This is a clear sign she has not been able to get much from mum. I got 0,1ml into her.
She might not make it, but at least she's got a chance now. I could have fed her myself but I really do not have the time for it, and to be honest I do not believe this is for the benifit of the animal as a lot of hand reared animals have social issues with their own kind.
If she makes it that's awesome, if not we did what we could.
This is why a litter or such a sizes cause a lot of mixed emotions. It's pretty cool and they are so darn cute. On the other hand there's an increased risk some won't make it. By removing the runt I'm hopefully giving the other small one a better chance as it doesn't have to fight off 4 siblings but only 3. Hoping it's a good situation for both smaller kits. And in the end I'd rather have 4 live kids with mum than 2 dead ones and 3 live ones
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 5, 2017 10:52:48 GMT
Gosh - difficult decisions! They are beautiful
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Post by randomname on Jul 5, 2017 15:52:46 GMT
they are so beautiful, love the photos. For what it's worth, I think you made the right call with the girl. I agree that we can give them feeds, keep them alive, but at what cost? We can't teach them to be chinchilla like another chin can. I hope she does ok. I never realised that I actually felt different about chins than other animals. This post has totally made me ponder. Usually I'd be decrying any breeding, makes me so mad when rescues are full - but chins aren't in rescues like other animals. There a very few here & that's consistent for a decade. It's not like we're over run with chins like we are with degus, dogs, cats, rabbits etc. I think I've heard you say there are none over there too? Seems like chinchillas are a unique case. Not that my opinion is important, just a bit of a revelation to me. Who knew I thought that? Not me lol. I have a total understanding bypass problem with the genetic thing. No matter how many times I read about it, I just don't get it. It's not really vital I know as I don't plan on breeding, but it bugs me that I can't get it. If you can make a thread explaining it like I'm a five year old, I'd love to read it. Know you're very busy at the moment, so only do it if you have time Love the knowledge you bring to the forum, we really needed it. So glad you're here.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 5, 2017 20:29:28 GMT
I get why people don't like breeding. I don't minde breeding no matter the animal. People just need to think before they breed their animals. They need to have a reason for breeding and they really need to have the space for surplus animals. People shouldn't breed just for the sake of breeding or for the sake of money. If people just thought breeding really wouldn't be an issue. I do feel breeding of animals is something we need to keep a healthy population of pets. Again the issue is rather with the breeding for the sake of money, breeding because kits are cute or what not. If I can't sell my kits and I end up not having the space needed I will simply stop breeding my animals. About my smaller kit. It looks like she is suckling with an other mum - hooray. And the ones I kept seem to be doing a lot better now. The white one has put on weight the entire time. Big beige boy lost a couple of grams but are gaining again. Beige girl started out loosing weight but is stable now. Small beige boy lost a lot of weight and has started gaining again after the removal of little beige girl. So all in all it looks like it's all good. And now I have 2 boys and 3 girls, so I can sell a boy pair and a girl pair and keep one girl. As for genetics, I'll write a bit here if it's okay: Basically every mutation has 2 genes (genes are paired in 2) that code for that specific trait. Either the gene has the trait, or it doesn't have the trait. If only one gene has the trait, we say it's a heterozygous. Hetero = different If both genes has the trait, we say it's a homozygous. Homo = the same So now we know we have 2 genes for each mutation/trait. If only one gene has to have the trait, for the trait to be visible, it is a dominant mutation, as it dominates the wildtype and it dominates recessive mutations. If both genes has to have the trait, for it to be visible, it's a recessive mutation. The genotype is what genes we know to be in the animal. The fenotype is the traits we can see. Whats relevant with my animals is the homozygous part of mums colour name. She's a homozygous beige. Every time they have kits, there's a 50% chance one of the two genes will be given to the kits. When the mutation is in it's homozygous form (both genes have the trait), there's a 100% chance of the gene getting passed on as one of the two genes will get passed on. On of the easiest ways to explain genetics is via punnet squares. Most common example used in punnet squares is blue and brown eyes, as blue eyes are recessive and brown eyes are dominant. To show the genetype we use a B for brown (always uppercase for dominant) and b for blue. In this case dad has brown eyes and mum blue eyes. Each gene get it's own box. In the middle we see what possible combinations the kids may get. Here all kids get Brown eyes as the dominat only needs 1 gene to show, whereas the Blue needs 2 genes to show, but all carry the blue eye gene. If one of their kids found a parther with blue eyes, they could get kids with blue eyes. They would get 50/50 brown eyes carrying blue an blue. This is the basics. If you still didn't get it, thats fine. Might just be my way of explaining you don't get I've seen this before where peole eiter get me or a friend of mine when talking genetics
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Post by zenaida on Jul 5, 2017 21:45:37 GMT
So I guess my question is that you try and breed for grey right? So grey is dominant in your pair and both have a recessive white gene? Or is it the other way around? Mom has recessive grey and your male has heterozygous white/grey? Statistically (4/5) suggests that it is the former scenario to me.
What do you currently like about your pair? What do you hope to change in the breeding line?
I'm actually very interested in this topic. I wouldn't do breeding myself for many reasons, but I love learning new things. I learned the basics of genetics somewhere in my primary education, but it is fascinating to see you apply it on this small scale.
I'm on the periphery of genetics with my work, but we end up talking about complex ideas like micro-deletions in the genome or the interplay with environment and genetic susceptibility. Stuff that no one really has an answer to, but it is theoretical. But that's because things like autism don't have a clear cut "gene" but statistically have a genetic component. I just try to follow what is going on in the science because I'm the real life boots on the ground and parents ask me "why?" sometimes. I like to try and be informed about "why" even if only to say "they don't know yet, it could be this or that, but for now this is what we will do".
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Kits
Jul 6, 2017 7:57:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by darthchinchi on Jul 6, 2017 7:57:58 GMT
Male is standard grey. Grey is the wild type and doesn't show in dominants, but show when no other gene exists or if recessiv genes are only carried.
The white gene in my lines is a dominant, but as it has a lethal factor in its homozygous form we only ever have heterozygous dominant whites. It is a incomplete dominant as well. This allows for the grey wild type to shine through.
The beige is dominant and on exist in both hetero and homo form.
My girl has 1 white gene and 2 beige genes. This makes her appear white. The beige gene gives her red eyes and pink skin and the white gives the white fur. A beige/golden tint can occur and/or patches of beige. This colour (pink white) is often confused with albinism. My girl also has the Ebony gene. This adds colour to the belly, as she is white this is not something we are able to see in her, it is quote visible on the kits though.
My boy is grey. I love the grey but they are near impossible to sell. People want something "different". I prefer light greys,they are not just hard to sell they are even harder to obtain as selective breeding has made the grey dark to an almost black colour. My light grey guy therfore carries some recessive genes. The recessive genes has a tendency to lighten the greys. I am not that into getting recessives into my herd as I do not intend to breed recessive. It's actually a big annoyance of mine that I have to have these recessives in order to get the light colour I want.
As the grey is near impossible to sell (no chance in hell I'm going to give them away for free + cage. It attracts the wrong kind of people), I put him with my white female, as she will always pass on a beige gene. On top of this there is a 50% chance she will pass on the white gene. In other words this pair makes either beige babies or pink white babies (beige + white), and they appear to be Ebony (colour on belly)
It's a bit unclear how the Ebony gene works. It might need som sort of catalyst gene to show. It is thought to be accumulative so not really a 2 gene deal. It accumulates over time making animals darker. Some believe it to be a normal gene with a normal mutation with a hetero and a homo form. It's also a big mess trying to get rid of Ebony when it first entered the lines.
Hope this answered some questions.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 6, 2017 8:05:57 GMT
Oh, the what I'm doing I forgot I do not like how the show community evolves. I do not like the brick shape and I do not like the big animals. I also don't like the smaller ears. So what I'm going for is what I call a more natural shape. Larger ears smaller animals with a pear shape to them. I do try and keep up with the fur though as I really want to have the high quality fur. I'm in no way up with the high quality animals when it comes to fur, but when I show (I do this to make sure I keep some kind of quality to the fur), they get the points for the fur I'm after. In an other thread I mentioned how smaller ears might end up being a health problem as the animals get bigger, and the only way of regulating body temperature is via the ears. Size can cause health problems. This we know from other species and I'm chinchillas breeders report poor reproductive function in the really large animals. I do not like the squared look as it makes me thing of car and dog breeds with flat noses and all the issues they encounter. I have a real issue with some of the "best" breeders out there and those who judge their animals, as they look so big and fat and everyone think this is improving the species. So I'm like the only breeder I know with this view and I'm fighting for my view lol
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Kits
Jul 6, 2017 14:17:38 GMT
Post by zenaida on Jul 6, 2017 14:17:38 GMT
So I got confused with the colors and googled it a little. I'm sort of now more confused. I found some website that had the coloration listed out and "beige" looks "grey" to me (at least in the conventional sense). I understand the genetics stuff you are telling me, but what I don't get is how they are giving fancy names to very subtle color changes.
I also went back and re-read your first post and that clarified a bunch of things for me. It is sad to me that people aren't interested in the "wild" type colors.
Thanks! I'm learning lots from you about all sorts of stuff!
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Kits
Jul 6, 2017 15:26:22 GMT
via mobile
Post by darthchinchi on Jul 6, 2017 15:26:22 GMT
When you get into it, the colours look quite different from one another. We also have a recessive called Sapphire. I do know it more blue than a grey but I have a real hard time telling the difference between a Sapphire and a grey. People breeding these colours don't have an issue differentiating though.
Naming is just a case of having a name for the fenotype of the animal. When beige gets mixed in with Ebony or Velvet it is very clearly brown. People want a blue hue to the coat and because of this it's is highly unlikely the beige will ever be selectively bred to give a darker brown colour as part of this would mean breeders would have to selectively breed for the red hue and this is not something breeders want. They try and ged rid of the red if they can
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