M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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UV Lamps
Aug 21, 2023 7:54:16 GMT
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Post by M&P on Aug 21, 2023 7:54:16 GMT
Had a little search through in this category but couldn’t find any definitive information on UV lamps for degus. I’ve been considering getting one for Smudge who recently had dental surgery and is on metacam for life. I’ve read that UV lamps can aid in calcium absorption due to providing the degu with vitamin D. I also recently bought the rat rations seed mix which I read is good for calcium. So my question is what sort of setup is good for degus? Is there a wattage I should aim for? How close to the cage should the UV/heat lamp be? Is it worth it, or is better to use vitamin D drops? I’m not concerned about the heat side of things as our house is warm and they have access to a snuggle safe and electric heat pad. Thank you for all your help
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Post by teemu on Aug 21, 2023 13:22:32 GMT
In normal circumstances, degus will be able to gain enough calcium out of their food without enhancements like an UV lamp. However, depending on how much natural sunlight Smudge gets, there may or may not be perks to giving him the opportunity to use an UV spot. I am not sure about the wattages since I'm not too familiar with them, but in any case it should be set up in one part of the cage, so that Smudge can choose whether he spends time under it or not. Mainly because they do produce a good amount of heat, and especially if the house is already warm, it could lead to issues like overheating.
In general, it is probably not a very well researched topic, so it would of course be very interesting to see experiences with using UV lamps for degus. I was thinking about getting one at one point where some of my degus were located in a room that did not get a lot of natural sunlight (but the situation changed so I kind of forgot about it)
I'm not sure about the vitamin D. It is possible to have too much of it, so I would definitely wait for some input on how much is safe to give (maybe an exotics vet might know?) before starting to administer it. It is possible for them to get and absorb too much calcium as well after all (vitamin D overdose seems to cause excess calcium concentration in blood, which is of course not a good thing), so it's a bit tricky.
What kinds of seeds are in that mix, by the way? I often find that it's a lot harder to find calcium-rich seeds that degus actually enjoy. Many seeds that are low in calcium (and conversely high in phosphorus, which they should get less of than calcium) are really enticing to degus, but calcium-rich seeds are often not nearly as enticing. I've been able to find some balance of things like fennel seeds, sesame seeds and some poppy seeds, but some of my degus snub their noses at those as well. Whereas something like sunflower seeds and pumpkin seeds are almost universally yummy. If it looks like your degus don't really care for the seeds, you might want to consider actually getting calcium dust or similar, and sprinkling small amounts of it on their food (not constantly or in heaps, of course, but as a supplement).
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 21, 2023 16:06:11 GMT
Teemu is right, the main answer is we don't know! Here are a couple of threads, the linked article is defunct in this first thread but there is some interesting discussion. deguworld.proboards.com/thread/19147/interesting-page-on-providing-lightThis gives some info on vit D dosing deguworld.proboards.com/thread/22749/ratrations-exquisit-daily-degu-mixture?page=2A couple of points are that the diet should contain enough vit d and calcium, but in reality, any treats at all throw the calcium phosphorus balance off, so you are always trying to play catch up with the calcium, and as already mentioned, high calcium foods seem to be less well liked. The advantage of a UV lamp is the theory that it is very difficult for them to overdose as the body will only convert what it needs from the light. The right type of lamp is a bird lamp (lower UV) or a rainforest lamp (higher) and you need to bear in mind the UV emitted falls away exponentially with distance from the lamp, so you need to look at charts for each lamp and figure out the position it would be in the cage. The lamp should also be in a place that they can choose to sit under it or choose not to, so depends on cage size and layout too. I never found that the bird lamp I had gave off a lot of heat, but our house is cold, so that was never really an issue here. The advantage of vitamin d drops is that we have had anecdotal evidence on the forum of them reducing the time between dental treatments when a UV lamp didn't make a difference. But this needs to be balanced with the risk of overdose from drops. Ideally you should work out how much vit d they are getting from pellets and figure out a sensible supplemental amount and calculate it carefully. I used to dose treats containing too much phosphorus with calcium powder, there is info in this thread/chart deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15602/vegetable-seed-nut-nutrition-charts I found it fairly safe as there was a limit to how much powder would stick to the food, so it was near impossible to get too much on most foods, but it wasn't a strategy that tempted many members. My goos just loved dried veg so I wanted a way to minimise the mineral imbalance in most veg.
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Post by winic1 on Aug 21, 2023 17:33:09 GMT
Bird people/forums would probably be an excellent source of information on UV lights, so would reptile people/boards. There are types of fluorescent lights that include UV wavelengths without putting out an excessive amount of extra heat. UV lights are most definitely distance-dependent on how effective they are, and also wear down with time, so a bulb made to put out UV will be producing full power when new, and not putting out any significant amount by 6 months. There also seem to be LED lights that include the UV spectrum to them, you have to find a manufacturer who gives full spectrum information to evaluate these, many just give you the color/brightness (that's the number in kelvins, 6500 is desert sun at noon) and some give the CRI (color rendering index, which basically is a measure of how much of the light spectrum that bulb produces, a CRI of 100 would be full sun at noon in a desert with 0 humidity (so the hottest, brightest sunlight possible on Earth), in the bird-keeping world anything over 90 is considered full spectrum and producing healthy light, 95 is better but hard to find.)
So you can do the research yourself, or find some in-depth, intense bird or reptile pages and read the work they have already done for you, to get an idea of the kinds of lights you might find and use.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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UV Lamps
Aug 21, 2023 19:22:55 GMT
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Post by M&P on Aug 21, 2023 19:22:55 GMT
Thank you all so much for the information and advice. A lot of it goes over my head so I’m going to ask my husband to have a read through and get on job!
The seeds I got from rat rations were: Degu Seed Mixture, Degu Seed Diet, and Degu Treat and Plant Mixture. So far they pick at it but it’s not their favourite. They also get Vitakraft Menu Degu food, I buy a lot of dried veg and forage from Hay Experts and mix it, and they also get the Science Selective Degu nuggets. They’re a bit spoiled for choice food-wise!
They get a lot of natural light and the occasional bit of sunlight in one corner of the cage which they will sunbathe in (they don’t get it often though because of the UK weather) but I’ve read that they don’t get much vitamin D from that as it’s filtered by the window glass.
Smudge definitely loves the heat. He’s obsessed with his heat pad. I think he would relish the opportunity to sit under a heat lamp all day but I would just put it on one section of the cage (probably over a hammock) and also think I’d connect it to a timer so he isn’t tempted to bask under it forever.
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Post by teemu on Aug 21, 2023 21:15:41 GMT
If it's installed in a safe way (the degus can't touch it and can't get to the wiring etc), an UV spot in their cage is not going to be harmful, in any case, and there'd be no downside to testing it out. Especially if they don't get a lot of natural sunlight anyway, it is entirely possible that it could be beneficial for them - and as you say, it's easy to imagine them enjoying the warm light during the fall and winter that are looming in the horizon. So while it's hard to say how much it it will help, I'd say give it a try if you're intrested and it seems feasible.
It'd probably be good to turn it off for the night, at least. I imagine their rhythm might get a bit confused otherwise when there's a bright light in the cage around the clock.
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Post by Xellie on Sept 1, 2023 21:25:35 GMT
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Post by teemu on Sept 1, 2023 22:14:32 GMT
Oh, that's nice! It'll be hard to assess what kind of an effect it has on their health, since the effects are not something that's easy to observe (except maybe much later on), but if they like it then that's already a big plus It occurs to me that good light and a place to bask are probably something degus instinctually like, since in their natural environment they live in arid mountain regions (or well, exactly one region) where sunlight is going to be plentiful and the terrain is quite open. If it's feasible, giving them a rock or a large piece of wood to sit on would really fit the picture. They do seem to like just huddling up on the highest point of whatever they can find when they're just hanging around.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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UV Lamps
Sept 2, 2023 9:46:09 GMT
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Post by M&P on Sept 2, 2023 9:46:09 GMT
Thanks Xellie. That’s really useful info. I was looking at this one: www.thepetexpress.co.uk/bird-lighting/arcadia-puresun-compact-lamp-reflector-kit/I like that it’s got a case so it’s not blaring out into the room too much. I’m just waiting for my husband to get a spare second to check it over and see if it’s suitable before I take the plunge as it’s not cheap! I’ll probably have it on for a similar time (around 4/5 hours).
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UV Lamps
Sept 3, 2023 14:42:39 GMT
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M&P likes this
Post by bouncy on Sept 3, 2023 14:42:39 GMT
I can't remember if it's in the links Molette has given......
I used to give my goos a full desert UV lamp similar to the Pet Express option. It was on a timer, so came on at 8am, and switched off again 9-10pm. My rationale was that, in the wild, they had options to sit in the sun, in the shade, or go back to their burrow. In a cage, they have the same artificial options by changing levels. It's then up to them! I must admit, my lot spent a lot of time sunbathing, then saved their wheel time for outside of these hours.
I started UV experiments because of dental issues. Personally, there was no noticeable difference using the lamps, but only when I started using the drops. I feed mine a full natural/forage diet, so there is no other supplemental vitamin D in their diet.
Oh, remember that UV bulbs need replacing every year!
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Sept 7, 2023 8:08:23 GMT
Just wanted to update this post on the UV light as it arrived yesterday. I originally wanted to set it up above their hammock but couldn’t find any secure way to keep the wire away from the cage bars. So settled with putting it above their sand bath. Might eventually get some metal coiling to put around the wire to be extra safe. They both seem to really like it. Jasper especially is really into it. Not sure if it will help Smudge with his dental issues but it makes me happy to see them enjoying it regardless. ibb.co/0tgSnY1ibb.co/hX93Mn0
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Post by teemu on Sept 7, 2023 8:49:13 GMT
They do look very snuggly under it
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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UV Lamps
Sept 9, 2023 13:26:41 GMT
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Post by M&P on Sept 9, 2023 13:26:41 GMT
They were feeling a bit warm under the UV lamp so I’ve moved things around so they aren’t as close to it. ibb.co/f8Rk681Smudge’s ears look a lot pinker than they were before. Does anyone know if that’s normal?
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Post by moletteuk on Sept 9, 2023 18:47:43 GMT
Are the ears red all the time now, or could the blood have been pumping through them to shed some heat?
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Post by teemu on Sept 9, 2023 23:12:43 GMT
They definitely look really pink. Did she have any black on her ears before, or have they always been pale? In the image, it almost looks like the light is just catching on her ears and making them look really bright, but if it's like that in shade as well, it's definitely something.
What molette suggests makes sense, since the reason the ears are pinkish in the first place (even normally) is due to blood vessels circulating in a thin piece of skin. So if they're more pinkish just when they're sunbathing and for some time after, it's very likely heat dissipation. But if they've turned permanently very pink, then the only thing that comes to mind is sunburn, since a low-intensity long exposure can cause a very pinkish kind of coloration (basically from inflammation). Most parts of a degu can't really get sunburned due to the fur, but the ears are bare skin, so they could get burnt.
Are they sensitive to touch? Does she react differently to you touching them now?
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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UV Lamps
Sept 10, 2023 7:34:16 GMT
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Post by M&P on Sept 10, 2023 7:34:16 GMT
They’re definitely pinker when under the lamp but still are pinker than before they had access to it. He doesn’t really let me touch his ears so not sure if they’re sensitive or not. They don’t seem to be bothering him from what I can tell. Hopefully it’s just the heat dissipating from them then. The image below is this morning after 12+ hours without it. ibb.co/KjWpPGnAnd this image is before I had the lamp. It’s a couple of months ago, before he had his dental surgery. I was trying to get a pic of his front teeth so please excuse the open mouthed chewing :’) ibb.co/1M2WpKF
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