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Post by teemu on Aug 5, 2023 18:32:05 GMT
It actually looks like Pulla might have hurt himself somewhat in the scuffle. He's been looking quite tender, and he flinches if I stroke his left side/shoulder. I'm not sure whether this is from him pushing so hard, or the boy tossing him over a couple of times (Pulla literally could not push back hard enough when they started shoving and boxing, so the boy quickly realized that he could just bull him down), but it certainly explains why he's looked so alarmed and restless for the past few days. I don't think it is serious, he can use the leg and is not actually avoiding movements, but it really shows that he just isn't very suited to handling anything like this.
(Amazingly enough he still climbs up to sit next to the boy now. But I don't want to risk it any more, since he's actually gotten hurt already.)
Pipari actually does have her cage next to the others. After she grew up, she hasn't really paid any attention to the normal goings-on. She does get tense and alert if she sees me holding a degu near her cage, but then that is not very abnormal as such. Pulla's cage has been next to her for as long as she has been here. Pulla sometimes climbs up to observe her, but she largely ignores it all. When she was younger she'd show jealousy, or discomfort even, when other degus were being handled, but nowadays she's really just... there, and happy to just run in her wheel, sleep on her plushie and otherwise do her normal routines. Since her reactions were so categorically bad, I just kind of stopped even thinking about trying to introduce her to anyone, but checking my notes it looks like it has literally been more or less a year since that happened. So I suppose it is possible that adulthood might change things... though of course it might be exactly the same.
Now that I divided the cage up, the boy is actually next to her (there is a gap between the cages of course, but his side of Pulla's cage faces Pipari's cage). For the first few days Pipari actually paid attention to him and stared at him a lot in that "what the heck is that" way, and the boy was of course very intrested, but both kind of lost interest soon after.
I do agree that if there is any hope of Pulla finding an actual companion, it would probably have to be an adult female in any case. Any other theoretical situation has not only potential personality clashes, but also just natural interactions as an issue.
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Post by teemu on Aug 6, 2023 4:01:35 GMT
One thing that makes me hesitate about keeping the boy here is that it does not look like he would get a cagemate any time soon. As I mentioned, I talked to the breeder, and it was said that there was no question of whether or not he'd get a home even if he's brought back. And of course I don't know what kind of a home, but it's a fair shot that it's a home with people who know a lot about degus, and have degus that will be much more durable (mentally and physically) and more capable of handling a rowdy boy (who does seem, I must say, like quite a strong personality).
I'm not sure if Pulla has a future where he will have company, but that at the moment means that it would be just as unsure for the boy. I'm not getting other boys any time soon, I'm basically full up on degus at the moment, and I don't think it'd be a responsible idea to bank on neutering if it does not work out with Pulla (I mean it's a possibility, but I don't think it's something that should be more or less a premise of the whole plan, especially with the experiences I had when Munkki and Pulla were neutered). And even with neutering, all my girls are... not exactly the easiest individuals either, so I'm genuinely not sure he'd fit in with them any better than Pulla.
I actually really like him, and it feels sad to think that he'd go, but there's issues of space, companionship, all that. He's a bright young thing, and it would be great if I could give him a home. But it does not feel entirely fair on him that I'd just kind of consign him to this situation. I know he's been alone for a good bit already, so of course it's not as if he's actively feeling the loneliness like if he was just separated from his litter or pack, but it's always the hope that animals such as this won't have to deal with being alone, isn't it?
At the moment it's still basically open as to what's to be done with him. I do think that it is not possible yet to say that it is categorically impossible to put him together with Pulla. Many intros take way longer than three weeks. But I genuinely do not know if it would pan out at all. I am somewhat hesitant to even attempt any decisive intros right now, with Pulla so shaken and all. I really don't want to just have a house full of lonely degus, at least on of whom could have a genuine opportunity for something better.
I welcome opinions on the matter, whether they're in agreement or not. Or even if there's just something I'm not considering right now.
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Post by teemu on Aug 8, 2023 15:57:24 GMT
To update the situation, we had a long discussion with my wife about whether we could see any way to keep the boy in a way that would be preferable to him getting a home elsewhere. Unfortunately, we really could not find a solution that seemed convincing. I brought him back to the breeder yesterday. It was sad, and I wasn't expecting myself to be so sad over it. After all, he was going to a better place (not as a figure of speech, but genuinely a better place as far as we could hope) and it's not as he spent a long time with us. I still found it really hard to walk away from there. But I do think it was the right decision. Pulla just does not seem to be conducive to this at all, and I felt that he was also getting really badly stressed.
Unfortunately, the female and pup had been sold while we were figuring everything out. They couldn't really reserve them for us, after all, when they were still at the pet store (she brings older pups with their mother to the pet store she works at, so that they will be more used to people and things outside the house when they go out to the world) and it was uncertain what our situation was. She didn't really have other possibilities to offer right now. She did actually ask around from another breeder she knew, but no luck at this time. So for now, the situation is back to what it was before. Pulla was somewhat confused about the boy not being there any more, but I think it was kind of a relief for him. He appreciates having the full cage again, at least.
At the moment, I am thinking that unless a new opportunity comes up unexpectedly (we are asking around at least), I will give him some time to recover from the stress and then carefully look into Pipari's current mindset. It will have to be by putting her in the divided cage, I think, since I think just putting them in the same room unexpectedly would be really bad. I'm still not sure what her problem is exactly, but she has a really hard time making sense of spaces or objects, and has lashed out at others due to that in the past. So it will probably work best if I just see how they react to closer vicinity before anything else.
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 8, 2023 18:09:45 GMT
You can only do what you think is best, and you seem to have given it a lot of thought, I hope there is some relief in having made the decision.
I think it's a good idea to give Pulla a break and then cautiously investigate Pipari. Is it possible to leave Pipari and Pulla in their own cages and just bring them closer together (but still with a gap)?
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Post by teemu on Aug 8, 2023 18:46:26 GMT
You can only do what you think is best, and you seem to have given it a lot of thought, I hope there is some relief in having made the decision. I think it's a good idea to give Pulla a break and then cautiously investigate Pipari. Is it possible to leave Pipari and Pulla in their own cages and just bring them closer together (but still with a gap)?
Yes, I actually tried to get them closer today. They can't be super close, since Pipari's cage is one with a stand, while Pulla's cage is lower to the ground. That means that only the upper level of Pulla's cage and the bottom level of Pipari's cage are actually facing each other. Pulla also tends to spend a lot of his time in the other end of the cage (he has a very large cage for one degu now). But that's probably not a bad thing to begin with, since it's more of an opportunity for them to be more aware of each other than something that forces them to deal with it.
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Post by teemu on Aug 9, 2023 8:28:37 GMT
So far Pipari's reactions have not been terribly bad. I tried lifting Pulla up to her cage as well, and she just comes over, stares really closely and tries to get a better sniff. I think she has something wrong with her nose (it takes her a good five seconds to identify a peanut, for example, if given outside the usual time, and she usually has to cautiously taste it first), so she starts pressing really close to the bars and doing this weird thing where she twists her head upside down. But she seems to actually be interested in what's going on, rather than being antagonistic or even particularly tense.
I think Pulla is actually quite intimidated by her, and he starts making that aggressive tooth grinding noise after a bit. I think he might remember how mean she was back then. But if that's the problem, and Pipari has actually calmed down, I think it'll be easy to sort out. Pulla tends to be intimidated by most things, but comes around if they don't do anything bad to him.
(I've actually observed other degus reacting similarly to Pipari. Suti, for all her brimstone, is actually also really intimidated when I've lifted her up to see Pipari by the way she just comes up, stares intently and starts pressing against the bars in total silence. I don't know if I've seen other degus really act like that.
Of course, I have no idea what Pipari would do if there weren't cage bars in the way. She is hard to read, and I think she has kind of settled to the idea that nothing outside the cage is actually all that important since it can't get to her. But at least it does not seem to terribly stress her out when someone comes close. She did also come to look at Pulla a few times yesterday now that they're closer, but didn't really seem to react to him then, either. It is an improvement over last year, when she would throw tantrums and just refuse to deal with it if I didn't have a blanket blocking the other cage.
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Post by teemu on Aug 9, 2023 17:19:24 GMT
I've also been asking around a bit, and it seems like there is a 2-years old male who needs a new home. I'm not sure whether I should approach the owner over it, even just to discuss about whether their boy seems at all like he would fit into our situation. He would be through puberty at least, but I'm unsure as to how much difference that makes. It's also a bit of a similar situation to the younger boy, as far as the implications of it not working out with Pulla go. And of course it is very hard to estimate how a degu will actually react to another degu (and, without wanting to imply anything, I know that when you really need to find a home for an animal, it is very easy to be overly positive about questions like personality)...
The boy is apparently very scared of humans and only somewhat handleable. Apparently it's mostly shyness and lack of handling rather than a serious personality issue like aggression. The owner describes him as being very fearful and fleeing from hands, but being now at a point where he will come take a treat if offered. Basically sounds like just lack of handling and being too unused to human interaction, which I think will be very fixable (but it certainly would not make introductions any easier...). He has been with another degu until recently, but that one passed away and the owner feels that he should be homed in another place to prevent him from becoming withdrawn and lonely (which is of course not a bad notion, as such).
I don't really know what to think. On one hand, it is an opportunity, and there is at least one less degree of issues there, but at the same time it's not an optimal situation either, and could become very problematic. I do think I can handle a longer intro at least, so that's not a problem, but I'm genuinely unsure as to whether Pulla is capable of accepting another, more typical male at all. And I'm unsure whether asking about his personality etc will actually help clear things at all, since it's such a nebulous topic in the first place, especially if it's presented as a kind of a requirement for even considering adoption.
I might wait a few days and see if someone else who feels more certain about their readiness to take the boy in would be available. It's just an open posting on the internet, after all, and the boy is not in an acute danger of being evicted. If she still needs a new owner by the end of the week, or the start of the next week, the posting will still be up.
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Post by teemu on Aug 9, 2023 17:34:30 GMT
Also, Pipari is looking weirdly promising. I lifted Pulla up to her cage to see her again, and she actually attempted to come closer and chirped at him like some sort of a... normal degu trying to approach another! Pulla is very unconvinced, but if Pipari has actually grown confident and comfortable enough to stomach others near her, then that seems tremendously promising. I'm absolutely sure that Pulla will come around to her if she's not going to be as mean to him any more.
I will keep slowly exposing them to each other more and gauging their reactions.
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 10, 2023 10:16:35 GMT
I don't think there is much point getting another male at this point. The boy seemed like a really good match in that he and Pulla seemed to like each other and there was no agression, so if they couldn't get past the submission issue, I don't think there is much point trying the same thing again at this point in time.
I think I would slow it down with Pipari and Pulla. It sounds like Pulla is probably still unnerved by the meetings with the boy, so I would just leave Pipari and Pulla near each other and able to see each other at the one level for now. If Pipari is difficult to read that is further reason to go very slow, plus I think it would be helpful to allow Pulla to get his sense of security back a bit more.
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Post by teemu on Aug 10, 2023 12:57:13 GMT
Yeah, I slept on it and came to the same conclusion. Especially since if it failed I would have even less options, it's just too much of a risk. I guess seeing degus in need just makes me want to find ways in which I could help.
When I woke up, I also had a message from the breeder waiting. The other breeder she was in contact with had notified her that they'd gotten an adult female, 2 years old, given away by her owners and in need of a home. She's apparently shy and has been alone for some time, and has not been handled a lot so is quite timid around people. But I'm not too worried about that, those are things that can addressed. We can provide her a home, and there are more options to consider if Pulla doesn't pan out in the end. And while Pipari has been surprisingly chill, Pulla does seem to be very wary about her (I've observed it before as well), and I am admittedly somewhat scared of how she would ultimately react.
I asked her to put us in contact. Hopefully it'll pan out!
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Post by teemu on Aug 11, 2023 15:41:27 GMT
Well, we are picking up the girl tomorrow. I talked with the person who has her right now for a bit, and they were very honest about her situation and temperament. Quite timid and shy, but energetic and does not seize up or hide if people are in the vicinity. About 1,5 to 2,5 years (so fully adult and young, but no exact idea). So no real issues with her, other than a lack of handling and having been lonely for some time. That is definitely something I can work with, and I will be happy to give her a home no matter how it ends up going with Pulla.
It's exciting, knowing that there's definitely going to be a new family member. I found that I really did not like having to be reserved and measured about a new degu in the house. This time I know that there are many options for what to do regardless of what happens.
Pulla seems a bit lost at the moment. I think having company for three weeks, even if that company wasn't unproblematic, has really made him feel how large his big cage is when he's all alone. He sits somewhere, just looking around for a long while. When the boy was here he came to beg for attention and to be picked up much less, and now it seems like he's constantly staring at me through the bars again. I really hope he'll get a companion from this.
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 12, 2023 11:09:31 GMT
Hope it goes well today
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Post by teemu on Aug 12, 2023 14:57:48 GMT
I divided his cage in preparation some time ago today (leaving to get the girl in about an hour). I think Pulla knows what this means. He keeps watching the other side carefully and frequently goes close to sniff the air. Now he's kind of napping in an observation position, making sure that he'll spot any newcomers.
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Post by teemu on Aug 12, 2023 19:27:15 GMT
Well, first impressions are... not ideal, but understandable. The girl is definitely not very timid or afraid of anything. She's going around her cage like a hurricane and pays me absolutely no mind. It's all quite overwhelming for now, obviously, and she was absolutely horrified and furious to realize that Pulla exists. This is the first time I had to put the blocker in with genuine cause, ever, because she is really trying to bite him through the bars. Also had to really reorder her side of the cage, because the blocker only covers the lower half, and she attempted to launch herself over it a couple of times without really accepting that there's a divider in place. I think she's quite scared, and it's all just a bit too much right now. She will probably need the first few days simply to come to terms with everything.
She is really defensive, though, and is really paying attention to all the other degus. She's also furiously marking her side of the cage, as if to make sure nobody will take it from her. I guess she has changed homes and hands multiple times within the last few days (to my understanding the other breeder received her either on Wednesday or Thursday). I'm sure that a few days will calm her down a bit. She doesn't seem actually aggressive, and I was able to handle her without issue. She even accepted a bit of scratching behind the ear, and does not avoid or fear my hands. When I open the cage door she comes over to actually take a look.
Other than that, she is a pretty little agouti girl. Pulla is obviously interested, but also a bit confused and miffed after she started punching him through the bars as a first greeting. Probably for the best that they'll just look at each other from afar for now.
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Post by teemu on Aug 13, 2023 3:54:59 GMT
The girl is *definitely* not timid or fearful. She was so amped up and hyper for most of the night that I actually opted to stay up to keep an eye out on her, in case she started doing something like eating her way through the sight blocker. It's wood so she theoretically could. There's the metal grid beyond but I really don't want Pulla putting his nose in there. She spent most of the night exploring, going around, stashing food (she takes food out of her bowl and runs away with it, and she's definitely not eating it) and just inspecting everything. Whenever I came up to her, she quickly came over. I even got to scratch her chest a couple of times. She spooks from unfamiliar noises and all, but that's to be expected in a new place.
No idea why she was so different when she was brought to the breeder. Maybe because everything was so chaotic. Some of the boldness might be just initial excitement, but this is definitely not the behavior of a scared degu unused to handling. Which is, of course, definitely not a bad thing. I think getting her settled in will not be too hard.
She seems quite small, but she doesn't have any pup-ness to her proportions any more, so I think the assessment on her age is probably accurate. Pulla seems so greyed out next to her...
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Post by teemu on Aug 13, 2023 15:03:47 GMT
Oh, she's definitely not just scared of Pulla (or at least what makes her get aggressive with him was not just initial panic). She actively tries to come up with ways to get past the sight blocker to harass him. I had left an open spot on Pulla's top level, because the girl has no physical access there, and I wanted them to at least be able to see each other and get used to each other. But she's coming up with ways to get to him regardless when he's up there. Either she launches herself into the divider and latches on, or she actually grabs the cage wall and starts sidling up the the divider, sideways, before swapping to it at the corner and then she simply sidles up to him. I let her do it at first because I thought she had calmed down and was genuinely curious, but her actual intent was to start peeing through the bars while also trying to bite him as soon as he got nosy at all. He did get nipped in the foot, but there was no wound (he screamed very dramatically though), luckily. I've now blocked off sight to all platforms and she seems to have lost interest. She seemed genuinely curious about him when there was space between them, but I guess that just means she's not very scared.
It will definitely take her some doing to get her to warm up to Pulla. I think she's just figuring that now that she has this space for herself, she's not going to tolerate any threats to it. Maybe she'll calm down a bit after a couple of days go by and nothing bad happens.
Even less afraid of humans than I reported. She's totally comfortable just sleeping out in the open, and when I came closer, she just flopped on her side and watched me. Quite astounding, I don't think I've seen any other degu act like this (especially after being just brought in). She's basically the opposite of what she was apparently like when brought in.
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Post by teemu on Aug 13, 2023 15:09:18 GMT
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Post by teemu on Aug 13, 2023 19:50:28 GMT
She is really territorial with Pulla. I've had to really triple-check that there is absolutely no way for her to reach him, because he will start stirring up trouble the second she finds a way. It's clearly not that she's just afraid and wants him to keep away, she's trying to get in there (and it's obviously not good intentions). At this point they can't really even see each other any more, but she is still sizing up the barrier. I hope it evens out after a while, but I guess I'll have to look into really careful and gradual introductions with this. I was admittedly not expecting things to go like this, but you really can't discount personality. I wonder if she's had some sort of a bad experience, her immediate reaction was very hostile in an environment where she's the stranger. Pulla seems a little dejected by this, but I'm trying to keep him occupied otherwise. He's also keeping a close eye on the border right now (which is unsurprising, given that there's someone there that keeps trying to pick a fight with him).'
I guess if things don't calm down a little, I will have to consider getting the spare cage out and housing her there for now, because it won't be good for anyone's well-being if there's this much hostility in a shared cage...)
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Post by teemu on Aug 14, 2023 5:19:46 GMT
This morning we also had a bit of a situation because she is really, really possessive over food. I gave her some seeds before doing my morning routines (checking pellets and water etc), and I actually had to stop because she got so bent out of shape that I was anywhere close to her when she was eating. I wasn't actually touching her or the seeds, but she kept screaming at me until I closed the cage and backed off (she kept screaming at me through the bars until I did).
In dogs, this kind of behavior often indicates bad experiences earlier in life. It might be the same for her. It's unfortunate that this doesn't seem to be the easier intro I was looking for (unless things suddenly come around), but I don't really have any regrets as such. After all, part of this whole thing was that we'll be able to keep her even if things don't work out as planned. She is also a really sweet and strong personality when just interacting with people.
It's looking a bit like I should maybe not even try to do introductions within the cage (like removing the sight blockers etc) since she has already become so strongly territorial about it. After she has settled a bit, it's probably for the best to first do very gradual scent swaps etc, than then consider neutral locations.
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 14, 2023 9:15:29 GMT
Well, you've had an interesting weekend! I agree that most of this looks like defensiveness and that is often a response to life experience, so she may chill out with time (or may not, it depends how deep it goes). It's positive that she is good with humans, so you know she isn't just agressive generally.
I wouldn't even think about introduction activity for at least a month or even longer depending on how things go. I think removing the blockers and even scent swapping is likely to just rile her up. If she doesn't calm over the territory, I would consider the spare cage quite soon, I think the further disruption may be worth it for peace of mind over safety for Pulla.
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