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Post by teemu on Jul 31, 2023 16:35:17 GMT
It does look like, to me, that Pulla enjoys the boy's company - and the boy really wants to be near him as well. He had his dental today, and the first thing he did after he sobered up enough from the sedation to move properly again was to climb up to the spot where their shelves are close enough that they can essentially sit side by side with just the divider between them. They've done a lot of that, but that was the first thing he wanted to do, while obviously still feeling really out of it. I'm sure that if he had any actual resentment towards the newcomer, he'd want to be as far as possible from him as he's still feeling weak, not sit with him.
After he's back to normal again by tomorrow, we'll continue their introductions. I think there is finally some progress that is starting to happen.
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Post by teemu on Aug 1, 2023 17:48:07 GMT
Today went really strangely. I'm not even sure that I can call it bad, because I don't actually know what the heck happened! The boy seemed to be absolutely worked up, and as soon as I brought him top the kitchen, he started running around making those nervous excitement noises (the low intensity whine that sometimes occurs when a degu meets another and they're all excited and nervous about it), just going all over the place, not even really noticing Pulla. He was so worked up that he did not even realize that Pulla had climbed into the sand bath (I really don't know how, it's literally just a deep dish that's transparent on top of everything...) and he jumped in, was spooked by Pulla and literally kicked him out in panic (just turned around and gave a defensive kick). After that their interactions were really weird, the pup just ran around in craze and sometimes came up to Pulla to basically just attempt to mount. He seemed really spooked by it as well and did not want anything to do with this strange situation. It went nowhere at all, and I was kind of unnerved by what was happening, so I ended the intro quite quickly.
Very confused by this. I'm not sure what was happening at all. The boy did not seem scared, merely somehow absolutely worked up. I did have the girls in the kitchen yesterday, but I thought I wiped the floor and all surfaces very thoroughly afterwards. It may be that there was still some of their marking smells left, and it just totally rocked his little teenage world. That's the only reason I can think of that he just seemed to totally lose control and run around like crazy. The source of the excitement clearly wasn't Pulla, at least. I'll do another clean before tomorrow, and hopefully things will be more normal.
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Post by teemu on Aug 1, 2023 18:15:41 GMT
Now it looks like the boy is also making some moves at Pulla through the divider bars. He's trying to reach him and keeps making faces and biting at the bars. I don't think he's actually being aggressive, but he seems really worked up and obviously wants to do just *something*. I really hope he calms down after a bit. And I definitely have to be absolutely sure that there are no female smells in the area any more (since I can't really even think of anything else that would make things so weird like this...)
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 2, 2023 15:40:48 GMT
I can only think you are right and he can smell a female on heat. If he stays agitated I wouldn't even try another meet until it passes.
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Post by teemu on Aug 2, 2023 18:09:20 GMT
He happily recovered from the agitation quite well, and we tried again today after I went through the kitchen another time with baking soda and non-toxic soap. The meeting today was much more normal, and they were able to spend a lot of time in the same room without any fights, but as soon as the question of dominance came up and the pup started trying to make moves, it quickly devolved in the usual way...
It's really tough since it basically feels like they both really want to have company, but are totally unwilling to not be the top degu. They like spending time together near each other in the cage (with the divider in place), and it's great when they groom each other, but actually sorting things out just does not seem to really be proceeding. Pulla did allow himself to be mounted that one time, but he has shown no signs of agreeing to it again.
Pulla also attempts to mount the boy sometimes, but he's even quicker to shut any attempts down, and way more hostile about it. I can't really see this happening if Pulla does not submit, but he's very used to being the king in the castle.
I remember that it was a bit like this with his stepbrother as well, after they initially broke up. Pulla was totally willing to spend time with Munkki, but neither would budge at all when these questions came up. And basically the only way he got company again was when Posso got evicted from the girls' pack and was very, very forthcoming with trying to appease Pulla and get together with him. And of course there isn't same kind of fighting for dominance when it's a male and a female, so Pulla also did not really have to compromise at all...
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 2, 2023 19:19:38 GMT
I was going to ask how it went at this point when he got together with Posso? Did Posso just submit without much protest?
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Post by teemu on Aug 2, 2023 19:31:39 GMT
When he was being introduced to Posso, the biggest hurdle was that he was so scared of her. Posso was really gentle and really cooperative. She came to Pulla and obviously wanted to get in with him, but Pulla had such trouble with his nerves to begin with. A small, slim girl was basically just coming up to greet him, and the moment she even moved too quickly, he would scream, start running around and go all defensive. It was ridiculous, but I finally managed to get it under control by literally holding his hand when it seemed like he started to freak out. That allowed him to hang in there long enough to start to realize that he wasn't in danger and Posso wasn't trying anything.
(I think it was partially because of Suti, who was really domineering and mean to him when I tried to introduce him to the girls initially. And also just the fact that he hadn't had interactions in a long time, and had bad memories of his brother).
Posso never really did any direct social power play with him. It was as if she just decided that they're now in the same cage, and there was no need to sort any of it out. When they hit it off, she just climbed into his cage and came sleep with him, and there was never any issues. Pulla was obviously quite tense about it at first, but since she was just... there and not making an issue out of it, he just seemed to shrug and let thing be. Later on, Pulla became quite meek and basically hung back whenever something happened and let Posso take care of everything. Posso would often push Pulla out of the way, and Pulla would sometimes be a bit spooked, but since Posso was not even intrested in his reactions, he'd just kind of not do anything about it. Posso was a real matron of the house. I think in a weird way the fact that she neither attempted to dominate Pulla, or really gave him an opportunity to worry his head about it either, really worked. He was totally fine with just having someone in the cage.
I'm really sad that she passed away, still. She felt so perfectly suited to him, being both gentle and firm so that his meekness and bad social skills were not an issue. They never fought or even really disagreed about anything. It was as if they both understood the pain of being thrown out by their sibling (since they both had been estranged like that) and were just content to have someone who did not try anything mean. Pulla just went along with what Posso did.
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 3, 2023 11:00:22 GMT
I feel for you teemu, you really have the double grief of losing Posso and seeing Pulla lose his soulmate and all the history and implications of that. I can only say keep going, I see your sadness and think you are coping well despite it.
I think there is hope for Pulla with the new boy, they seem to like each other and want to spend time with each, so if you keep going patiently with the intros maybe something will click with Pulla and he will submit, you never know. Maybe you could figure out a way to help Pulla submit like you did with the literal hand holding? Would he let you cover his back end with your hand so he could get used to the physical feeling, in case that is an issue?
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Post by teemu on Aug 3, 2023 13:09:34 GMT
I've actually been trying to do something like that, but it seems like it doesn't work when it's not just due to being afraid, but due to actually being harassed in some way. His fear responses were always very different. He would start screaming and would run back and forth and basically look like he lost all control. With all this, it's just regular fighting. He slips out from under the boy, or angrily pushes him, screams or something similar. He doesn't care at all about me at that point, because he's immediately very, very serious about being "bullied" like that.
Looking at it, it kind of feels like Pulla is still a bit clueless about what it all even means. I'm sure he understand the loose idea that the boy is trying to show that he's the top degu here, trying to bully him into submission, but Pulla is basically totally reactive about it. He's fine with the boy touching him, or even standing up on two legs against him, as long as it's from the side and there is grooming. But I think the boy takes that as a sign to proceed, and then he starts sidling up to Pulla's rear. At that point, he always refuses to let it go on. The only time it managed to happen was one where he was also grooming Pulla really heavily during the whole thing. I'm a bit uncertain as to whether Pulla even understood that he was being mounted, instead of being groomed in a weird way...
Pulla's reaction to all this is always totally, well, reactive. He just pushes the boy away and turns around, but he does not actually posture or otherwise try to compete with the boy about this. After it has gone on for some time, Pulla starts trying to run away. The boy of course will chase him relentlessly, since he's basically got him "on the ropes" at that point, as far as I can see the thinking. But Pulla has never been quick, and he also has his issues, so he doesn't have the energy to do it for long, and at that point he just basically huddles up somewhere and tries to keep kicking the boy away when he comes close while looking absolutely miserable. And all of that really excites him to continue.
Alternatively, Pulla knows perfectly well what all this is, but knows that he has no chance in actually fighting back, so he's just very passive about it and hopes it will stop. But he never actually gives up, he just keep doing it until he's literally on the brink of exhaustion. And since it's clearly actually a very stressful situation for him, I don't have it in me to let it continue until he's just literally incapable of resisting. After I bring him home, Pulla sleeps for hours due to being so mentally and physically worn. The boy meanwhile is young, energetic and obviously winning here, so he's just amped up to keep going. He isn't even nearly as serious about it. I can instantly draw him away from Pulla by just shaking the treat box.
I guess it might simply be that a lifetime of being either the only degu, or a degu who hasn't had to even consider not calling the shots as far as he cares, has made Pulla simply very badly suited to giving up on something like this... even if he's just very poorly equipped for any of it.
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Post by savvy on Aug 3, 2023 13:25:08 GMT
Are you planning on giving the new lad a name?
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Post by teemu on Aug 3, 2023 15:32:26 GMT
I've been a bit hesitant to do so yet, Savvy, since he is technically still on a trial period. I have a few potential names thought up, but I'm trying to stay a bit reserved about this until it's clear that the boy will actually stay with us. I've talked to the breeder during this time, and she has observed that if it just doesn't look like they can make up, it would be preferable for her as well to think of other possibilities. The prospect of that female and her last pup (as predicted, one was left over along with her) has been brought up.
For those who have experience with these things, do male and female degus also go through dominance struggles? I'm sure that there is always an adjustment period, and I know from personal experience that it does not always work out, but I would assume that it isn't as much about sheer dominance when it comes to different sexes, since there is naturally more of an order for these things (whereas in the wild multiple males are most of the time a tense situation). Suti was really dominant towards Pulla and basically attempted to get rid of him every time they met (not as in kill him, just chase him away or make it clear that she didn't want him there), but Suri has always been a bit of a firecracker.
I've been pondering whether Pulla would do better in a situation where it'd mostly be the question of socially accepting the other party, instead of having to put up with being bullied into submission.
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Post by teemu on Aug 3, 2023 19:06:33 GMT
I decided to have another intro today since we had to miss a couple due to the freakout and Pulla's dental. I also decided taht it might be for the best if I let it go on for longer unless they actually get violent. That was a bad idea - though not because they got violent.
It started pretty badly. The boy had a minor freakout at the beginning, which is weird since now it's positively certain there are no girl smells in there. Maybe he was just excited and nervous since he knows what it means when he's brought there. Pulla certainly knew, because he was really hesitant to even be picked up, and huddled near the door (he knows it's the way out) looking miserable about it. I considered just calling it there since it seems to actually be starting to be really unpleasant for some. But things calmed down a bit after the beginning so I let it continue.
It followed the usual course from that. Ignoring each other for a while, then meeting and grooming a bit, and then the boy starts attempting to dominate Pulla, and Pulla gets immediately very angry and defensive. I let it continue, staying very close in case they would actually lunge at each other. But they didn't. Pulla just kept trying to waddle away, pushing his butt at the boy when he got close and then spinning around when the boy tried to grab it. He pushed back for a while quite well, though the screaming got really loud (but they were just boxing and shoving, so it did not seem alarming as such). Then he obviously started to run out of gas, because every time he started pushing against the boy, the boy would just push him over on his butt, and he'd get up and try to just escape again.
After that it started becoming desperate. Pulla was gassed but absolutely unwilling to submit at all. When the boy got close, he'd just kick out, doing that spinning back kick that they do when they just want the other to go away. But he was so uncoordinated that he'd just flop on his belly and stay there panting for a couple of seconds before trying to waddle away again. He was just done, he was basically desperately flopping around since he could not put up any more of a resistance. It was absolutely pitiful to look at, and it was obviously not going to go anywhere. I started to be fearful that he'd have a heart attack or something if this kept up.
When I picked him up, he just huddled in my palms. When I brought him home he just sat there for a while, and huddled right where I put him to sleep. He did not have the energy to even go anywhere. He looks so miserable right now, sleeping with his ears all flat and looking very defensive.
I don't think there's a danger of their encounters becoming violent. Pulla does not have enough strength to do so (and he obviously knows it), and the boy doesn't need to do it to absolutely dominate any fight they have. He's obviously just excited to do it, and when I removed Pulla he just forgot all about it and went to play with a cardboard box. It's so absolutely mismatched. Pulla looks like he's ready to die before submitting (and he actually looked like he might, at that), and the boy is just free to run roughshod over him.
I don't think it will work out. I'm not sure how I could break Pulla's resistance down when he's like this. There's no trouble at all with them tolerating each other, and neither shows any signs of aggression before or after these meetings, in the cage or otherwise. They're comfortable in cage next to each other. But it just does not seem to compute at all to Pulla that he would need to give in any way in this situation. It's like he does not really even understand what's happening. Maybe four years of really spotty interaction and a total of about three years of solitary living just does that?
I feel really bad about pushing this on him today. He crawled to his nest to sleep just now as I'm writing this, and I don't think he's actually having a medical emergency or anything, but that was not just a stressful thing they have to go through, that was basically just him being put to torture that he doesn't seem to get at all. The moment the boy starts to push him, he starts behaving like he's under attack.
(I really don't know how he is this weak. He has always been like this, being clumsier and slower and just very slow-stamina. Even when he was less than two years old, and I tried to re-introduce him to Munkki, he would just run out of energy way before Munkki and basically look like he was dying if it went on for too long. Being well over five at this point has not helped it at all, obviously. There's no problem with his basic vitals, that's been confirmed at this point, so I really don't know why he's so weak like this. But he is so badly suited to things like this. I don't think it's right to basically push him to this sort of an extreme...)
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Post by savvy on Aug 3, 2023 20:29:51 GMT
I think you need to just let them live side by side for a while. I still think it could work out, but I'm fearful for their mental wellbeing if you send the boy back to the breeder to be on his own again after he's tasted living in a loving home with other degus.
After all, he's done nothing wrong.
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Post by teemu on Aug 3, 2023 21:05:16 GMT
Yeah, I definitely agree that he's not done anything wrong. It's not like he's trying to be mean. He's a young male, all his instincts are telling him that he needs to assert dominance here. After all, in the wild that is how you succeed - especially when the resident male is obviously incapable of actually doing anything about it. I'm a bit worried about space, though, since the cage divided does not provide a huge amount of space. I have a spare cage, but I'm really struggling to come up with any idea of where to put it (our house is quite small and no joke about 75% of free floorspace is taken up by degu cages at this point). In an emergency I can put it in the kitchen, and that's been my plan if for example Suti's constant badgering finally sets Limppu off or something like that (though in an emergency I'd actually just split the cage first of all). But it's not a very sustainable arrangement if it can be avoided.
I do agree that it's not ideal at all if he has to go back again. My understanding is, though, that if he goes back, he could be introduced to the males there (the breeder said that she has a group of boys, but has not introduced this one to them because she was hoping he'd find a home with less hassle, which doesn't seem to be panning out too well). So he would not have to be any more alone than here, at least. I don't like the idea at all, but it is difficult to see how I should sort this out.
Pulla crawled out from his nest a few minutes ago and just started begging to be picked up. He's limping somewhat. I think he might have strained himself when he kept doing those kicks. He looks really miserable about all this and seems kind of wary about even being out in the open. I really feel bad about trying to push this situation.
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 4, 2023 11:29:05 GMT
Wow, you really went for it, it must have taken some nerve, at least you can rule that approach out now. I think this confirms that Pulla does have some kind of physical disability or illness, something probably undiagnosable, I'm wondering heart but could really be anything. I think he has some kind of instinctive understanding about dominance because he seems to have the instinct fully intact not to allow himself to be mounted - but perhaps this isn't integrated too well with his conscious mind and therefore he has difficulty weighing up that not allowing himself to be dominated means he stays alone. I still think with lots of time and patience it's possible he may figure it out, but I agree that a long term situation with two single boys and no room left to try intros with other goos for either of them is possibly not the best option for the new boy.
I would proceed with any intro activity now with Pulla in a soft and slow manner, if pushing him to the edge didn't work then I don't think it's worth the physical risk and potentially increasing his fear response which would be counterproductive too.
I don't think you can guarantee that an intro to a female would go without any element of dominance, but you would be increasing your chances of success.
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Post by teemu on Aug 4, 2023 13:01:18 GMT
Yeah, Pulla's been really down today. I've been feeling really bad about what I did. He looks miserable and out of it, and sometimes seems to go to the divider to make sure the boy isn't coming in before backing off. They had some arguing through it yesterday, but luckily nothing more came of it. Now Pulla is just looking beaten and like he's lost all sense of safety. I think it will be for the best if I sight block them for a bit, if only to make him feel safe.
There's obviously no sense in trying to put them in the kitchen together at the moment, I agree. Pulla has been really suspicious of me every time I come up to the cage, probably because he's afraid I'll take him there again. He did want to be held yesterday, but is suspicious of what I'm going to do if it's me coming up to him. It was an obvious mistake to try to push him, and I'm regretting it now. He looks so done with all this.
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Post by teemu on Aug 4, 2023 15:38:50 GMT
Wow, you really went for it, it must have taken some nerve, at least you can rule that approach out now. I think this confirms that Pulla does have some kind of physical disability or illness, something probably undiagnosable, I'm wondering heart but could really be anything. I think he has some kind of instinctive understanding about dominance because he seems to have the instinct fully intact not to allow himself to be mounted - but perhaps this isn't integrated too well with his conscious mind and therefore he has difficulty weighing up that not allowing himself to be dominated means he stays alone. I still think with lots of time and patience it's possible he may figure it out, but I agree that a long term situation with two single boys and no room left to try intros with other goos for either of them is possibly not the best option for the new boy. I would proceed with any intro activity now with Pulla in a soft and slow manner, if pushing him to the edge didn't work then I don't think it's worth the physical risk and potentially increasing his fear response which would be counterproductive too. I don't think you can guarantee that an intro to a female would go without any element of dominance, but you would be increasing your chances of success.
His heart did sound and seem normal when he was inspected last month, as did his lungs. I've been thinking what it could be, and I think that it may have a lot to do with his posture. He does not move like normal degus. He waddles, butt very low to the ground, heels very low (sometimes he even walks totally flatfooted, with his heels actually touching the ground). It almost looks like he's shuffling his back legs, the way he does not properly lift them. When he's absolutely forced to he can start kicking up faster to run, but even that looks really awkward and unpleasant. The same checkup with X-rays showed that it's not his back like I had thought, but they said that it could be for example some issue with his pelvis that would not be obvious from X-rays or such.
(He's also adopted an increasingly awkward posture when eating. He can't stay upright when eating any more, like most degus do. He pushes out his back legs so that they stick out, and then puts his elbows down to the ground so that he's basically lying down in between his own feet. It does not seem to be painful to him, thankfully, but he obviously has to take care to do these things...)
Regardless of what it is, I think it basically means that it takes a lot of effort for him to just move, especially if he has to move fast. I'm not sure if that can actually explain all of it, but I'm sure that it does not help at all. Luckily, it does not seem to be actually disabling him, as he can climb up and down in his cage without problems (though it seems he cannot jump any more) and even enjoys waddling in his wheel. I'm sure that the high effort required makes him feel very insecure around others as well, since he actually can't keep up with them.
Again, I don't really know if that explains how he gets gassed in roughly a three or four minutes when he has to fight or do something else like that, but if there are other issues, they are likely, as you say, impossible to diagnose.
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Post by teemu on Aug 5, 2023 0:40:32 GMT
I talked with the breeder about the situation and how I was feeling bad about the boy's situation. Luckily, she assured me that if it comes to that, it will not be a problem to find him another home (she is in contact with many other degu owners and all). She did, however, note that given Pulla's situation and background a young female might not be a much better fit, since even if it started out well, the female would likely also try to assert dominance when she goes through puberty. And given Pulla's whole situation, I can't exactly deny that the prospects of that going over well are very slim. He's just so bad at dealing with any meanness at all... There was some discussion of whether or not it might be for the best to allow Pulla to remain alone, given that he is very attached to the people in the household and is very pampered, in that sense. It can never really replace another degu, of course, but another degu clearly isn't an unproblematic prospect either... I'm kind of torn on the issue. On one hand, I totally agree that Pulla might just not be very suited to contending with these things. It's also true that he is not exactly young, and it may be that any degu we got to accompany him would potentially just be left alone quite soon, even if it did work out between them. But on the other hand, he was so energetic and happy when Posso was here. I had not seen him be so personable basically ever after he got separated from Munkki. And after Posso died, he clearly lost a lot of that again. He's not unhappy alone, but I don't think he's actually happy, either. I'm really torn on all of it. I know it's not something I should bank on at all, but in absolute best case scenario, he might still live five, seven, even ten years (I know it is very unlikely that he's going to live to 10, much less above, but it has happened with degus). I'm afraid that if I figure that it's probably for the best to let him be peacefully and give him what company we can, we might end up watching him be lonely year after year. Just leaving him alone is not what I want, but at the same time I can see how messy it could become, no matter how it's done. I just want him to have the best life he can. He's had such a bad luck with everything.
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Post by teemu on Aug 5, 2023 0:46:02 GMT
I guess one thing that comes to mind is that it's been a long time since I even attempted to see how Pipari would react to introductions. Her reactions were so categorically negative and aggressive I just figured it would be well better to simply not push her, since she was actually just willing to default to FBOD if put in the same room with others. But she's an adult now (turning two at the end of the month, actually), and she is, by herself, very calm and mild-mannered. Even her issue seem to have slowly become less severe, likely because she's in a familiar place and has a stable rhythm to her life. I guess one option would be to try and see how she reacts if I carefully try to warm them up to each other. It could of course be that it fails right away, but I guess that's a fallback thing to try if I can't really figure out anything else.
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 5, 2023 18:09:14 GMT
I think the only decisions you need to make in the near future are whether to keep trying with Boy and whether to keep him. I wouldn't rush any other decisions, it sounds like Pulla would need a while before he met anybody else new anyway. It sounds to me like a lone adult female would be your best bet, but you can never take personality out of the equation, maybe a suitable candidate will turn up at some point, maybe availability is going to be the deciding factor.
Pipari cohabiting with Pulla seems like a long shot to me. By all means try putting her on opposite sides of the same room as Pulla or the girls to see what happens, but I think you would have to be ultra slow and cautious. Have you considered putting Boy's cage near Pipari just to see what kind of reaction there is (if keeping and neutering him might be an option).
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