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Post by teemu on Jul 15, 2023 12:19:44 GMT
Hey all,
Today I got the young boy I mentioned in Pulla's health thread, and he's now getting settled into his half of their big shared cage. At this point it's a bit hard to say how things will go, but I think it's looking promising.
The boy is still clearly a bit of a pup (10 months old now, clearly still growing), but is very curious and active. He's not used to being in a room with constant human activity and freaks a bit seemingly at random, but he is very curious, takes seeds from my hand and is going around the cage nonstop, inspecting everything.
It was a bit of a shock to Pulla. I think for the first 15 minutes he did not totally realize that there was someone there. The boy got intrested in him really quickly, since Pulla has made a nest right next to the divider and was sitting there gnawing on an apple stick. When he started putting his nose through the bars, Pulla finally figured that something was happening. His first reactions were quite similar to his other interactions with new degus, namely carefully checking them out and then freaking out, crying and just... bolting in any and all directions, and trying to push at the bars. It's exactly the same as when he and Posso shared room space at first. Not aggressive, just seemingly being totally overwhelmed by his nerves.
Fortunately, it looks like the same trick works this time as well. If I have a hand nearby and he knows that I'm right there, he calms down notably, like he's actually just very scared of what the pup might do to him, and my presence there makes him feel that he's safe. Pulla has now stopped freaking out and is mostly observing the boy, sniffing at the bars a bit if he comes close, and doing his normal stuff. He's no longer actively guarding the divider area, and seems to be eating right now. I think it's a very good sign, he's working through his nerves much faster than before.
(It's genuinely bizarre how he reacts to these things. He makes a totally piteous series of very pained cries, and for a long time I did not even know if it was a fear signal, an alarm, or even aggression. But Pipari made the exact same sounds when I was trying to introduce her to Posso and Pulla during the first weeks, and Posso was really bearing down on her. She would cry out the same way when Posso was holding her down and really smelling her out. I think it's a genuine fear response, or some sort of a "begging for mercy" thing. It's just slightly ridiculous how he seems to think it's warranted from nosing off with a pup from behind the bars, but at least it's a lot better than aggression, I think.)
The boy seems to be quite outgoing, despite being alone for a long time. He's constantly wanting to get through the divider and check out Pulla's space as well. He's also not very scared of Pulla's reactions, but not showing outright aggression either, which seems like a really good place to be. I think after things have calmed down a bit, they will be able to get to know each other relatively easily.
I have a blocker that I can use to make sure that they can't reach each other through the divider (the divider is a removable cage wall, essentially), but so far it looks like it's not needed. I'll put it there for the night when I can't monitor them, but so far it's looking very good.
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Post by savvy on Jul 15, 2023 19:18:52 GMT
Great news, but..... er.... photos?
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Post by teemu on Jul 15, 2023 20:00:29 GMT
It's actually been really hared to get any photos! The boy is very amped up and running around constantly. He hardly stops long enough to be anything but a blur in the pictures I try to take. But I did snap some, and hopefully more tomorrow. imgbox.com/iT0pAZ1Uimgbox.com/Bs9IK1k3(I'll try to get a picture of their meetings, but they happen so sporadically and suddenly that I never have my phone ready...) Things have developed well over the evening, I think. The boy is now very intrested in getting to meet Pulla, and is making socializing, chirping noises every time he noses off with him and reaching a paw through the bars to touch Pulla. Pulla seems to have adopted some sort of a total neutrality approach where he doesn't really do much anything. He goes to see the pup, but then he just seems to observe what he'll do, won't really answer his chirps, and just stares. It doesn't look hostile, but it does look a bit awkward. He does seem intrested in this new degu, but it's kind of like he just doesn't really have any better idea of what to do. I'm thinking that I could try to see what they do in the same space tomorrow, unless someone does something very drastic before then. If Pulla follows the same behaviors as with Posso, I can probably dampen his shock a lot now. I'm almost tempted to try it already (they do seem to be very intrested in each other), but there has been a lot for everyone to take in today already. I'll also have to shift some things around, because right now there are some places in the cage where it's hard for me to reach, and that's not good when I have to keep watch for how things develop. The boy has been really active and outgoing. He also seems quite clever, since he already learned what the snackbox is, and what it means when he hears the rustling of the treats inside. I think he actually learned it by observing Pulla, since he has been very intrested in what he does. He seems to be settling into his cage really well, and is a lot less scared and timid than the others were when they came in.
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Post by teemu on Jul 15, 2023 20:08:41 GMT
Oh, I did manage to take some video clips of the boy (I'll need to think up a name, he apparently was never given a proper name that he'd recognize) exploring his cage. He's a very pretty one. There is a very funny-looking band of black around the base of his tail tuft. He also seems to be fairly large, and I anticipate he will be much more sturdily built than Pulla when he gets through his adolescence. youtube.com/shorts/H04-6EE7NUU?feature=shareyoutube.com/shorts/2B5FX5ckopY?feature=shareHe tends to get spooked by very random things all of a sudden, just normal movements that don't seem to be any different from how people are otherwise moving. But he bounces back immediately and returns to check it out, so he really does seem rather brave.
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Post by savvy on Jul 15, 2023 21:09:15 GMT
It sounds like he isn't used to people yet, but he'll get there. Everything is new to the poor chap at the minute and he has a lot to take it; new home, new cage, new hoomans and other degus!
He is gorgeous and I love his light colouring, is it the camera or is he a sandy shade?
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Post by teemu on Jul 15, 2023 22:12:16 GMT
He is a sandy shade, yes. He's actually shedding right now, so there are darker patches on his face and back, but he seems to be close to Pipari on coloration.
Everyone has retreated to sleep by now. He seems to actually be copying Pulla and building a nest of his own in the same way and level, though it looks like this whole toilet paper thing is quite new to him.
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Post by teemu on Jul 16, 2023 11:43:58 GMT
Today I allowed Pulla to visit the boy in his side of the cage (it's more open so I figured that it would be for the best to try this there so that I can quickly intervene if something goes wrong), and it did not seem to go badly. Pulla was not very intrested in the boy directly (well, I know he's intrested, but degus sometimes just seem to pretend they're ignoring each other so that they have time to figure things out) and mostly went around the cage. But the pup almost immediately approached him and offered grooming, which Pulla took somewhat awkwardly. He even quickly brushed his own nose against the boy in return (he really is an awkward guy...) before exploring the rest of his cage.
However, being in a weird place with a weird degu seemed really stressful on Pulla, and he started to become quite agitated in general, so I quickly let him back home. But the first impressions were really good! I think it'll work out better if I do this in a place he is familiar with (this goes against the common wisdom I know, but they seem to be quite okay with each other, so I think it would work out, given Pulla's anxieties) the next time. I'll either move things around his side of the cage a bit, or I will see if I should consider trying the kitchen.
I'm sure that after the initial cordialities wear off there will be some squabbling as well, but I'm really pleased to see that neither seems to actually be opposed to the idea of associating with the other. I did not even need to put the blocker in for the night, since they seemed have absolutely no desire to pick fights with each other. I am a bit unsure as to what to make of Pulla basically not reacting to the pup at all any more (other than sniffing at him when he comes close, but not expressing interest or distaste past that), but taking things really slowly and seeing what happens has always kind of been his way to deal with things.
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Post by teemu on Jul 16, 2023 15:47:44 GMT
I took the divider off for a while, to allow Pulla to encounter the boy in his own environment. It did not go badly either, though they did not really interact much at all. Both just went to the opposite sides and explored everything and tasted each other's food, but there was very little interacting. The pup does follow Pulla around a bit, and Pulla does not really resist it or anything, but he's obviously taking this really carefully and slowly. He mostly ignored the pup, and only paid attention to him when it became inevitable because he got in front of him or something else like that. They both seemed to avoid pushing each other or being too handsy about it. I think the pup is accommodating Pulla a whole lot, being very careful around him and backing off as soon as he looks tense. That's very promising, I think, since it shows that he doesn't want a fight and would rather give way than force the situation. It should help Pulla with accepting him quite a bit. The thing that usually gets to him seems to be if other degus are really pushy and force the situation.
Still, I think this is not a bad sign, even if they did not really want to interact a lot yet. Neither (especially Pulla) is reacting with actual hostility, and it does not look like Pulla considers him an intruder. It may be that he simply has to consider the situation for a while before he comes to terms with a new cagemate. It's understandable, too. They saw each other for the first time only yesterday.
Pulla has been observing the pup again through the divider after I put it back. They have this rhythm of attempting to smell each other while the other is turned away, and then quickly turning away themselves when the other turns to them.
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Post by teemu on Jul 17, 2023 15:28:31 GMT
Today has been really good. Pulla started grooming the pup back, and they've spent a long time sitting together whenever I remove the divider. I think it's still a bit early to remove it completely, since Pulla can get a bit overwhelmed if the boy moves too quickly around him or if he feels like he can't easily get out of the spot (will have to move things around a bit so that there are no dead ends), but it's looking really good. The only situation where it got a bit sketchy was when the pup moved to groom his back, and it probably felt a bit too much like an attempt to mount (it wasn't, he was just trying to groom his side and flank and put a hand on his back), so Pulla hunched up and I saw his tail wiggling, but he stopped immediately when he realized that it was just grooming.
I think both of them are feeling the loneliness, so they're very happy to have an opportunity for companionship. The pup especially seems really good about giving Pulla space and always approaching him in a way that is clearly non-threatening.
It's also clear that Pulla is warming up to the boy. When the divider is back, he often comes to sit near where he is and the just kind of hang out. I think that unless something goes very wrong, he's likely going to be at a correct level with this quite soon. It is obviously quite taxing on him still, though, because after the meetings he often goes to take a long nap. I think it's genuinely just the mental load. I suppose he just has a hard time with these things.
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Post by teemu on Jul 17, 2023 20:11:47 GMT
Well, towards the evening it has gotten a bit less singularly positive. Pulla started reciprocating the pup's socialization a lot more, which seems to be an indication that they've moved onto the stage of actually recognizing each other as potential packmates. Which meant that there was a lot of squabbling when they met each other again. The boy is quite clearly trying to push Pulla around a bit, and Pulla has never taken well to that, so there was a lot of shuffling and pushing their butts towards the other and all that. I did not let it go on for too long yet because Pulla would probably do better with it rested than at the end of the day. But of course, there's no real way to get this done than to simply get it over with.
I'm thinking about whether or not I want to keep doing this in the cage, or if it would be better in a different space. Another space would be a more neutral area, but it'd confuse things a lot at this point and they might have to take a long time to simply get used to it before they can even really productively attempt to settle their situation. Or so it has seemed to me previously, at least. The boy is also very, very unwilling to be handled that much yet, so putting him in an unfamiliar space would be difficult. I'll see what should be done tomorrow.
(Also had a bit of a situation today when the pup managed to get out of the cage. A side door had been knocked open when I was trying to push a ramp into a better position, and I had missed it. It took a bit of hassling to get him back in, since he really does not want to be grabbed yet. Fortunately, though, he has been here for so little time that he obviously did not really realize that the space outside the cage is different from the space inside, so he didn't go into a panic or tried to hide, and just basically went all around the room. Bathing sand distracted him long enough that I could put him back home.)
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Post by savvy on Jul 17, 2023 20:18:03 GMT
I think it will be two steps forwards and one back until they sort themselves out.
Its important to bear in mind that Master New Goo will be in adolescence so he will naturally want to push the boundaries a bit.
But.... I think its sounding good so far.
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Post by teemu on Jul 17, 2023 22:00:14 GMT
Yeah, it's definitely something that just needs to get sorted out. Trying to prolong it just means they have more time to start having problems with each other being in close vicinity. I do think they both genuinely want to have a cagemate, and they both are really happy to groom and socialize as far as I can see, but they just need to figure out who's the boss.
It also seems that Pulla finds it very helpful to get time to think about things between their meetings, since he's made progress every time I let them meet each other. Hopefully they will be able to work things out quickly.
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Post by teemu on Jul 18, 2023 13:56:41 GMT
Things were similar this morning. First a lot of grooming and socializing, and then they started sorting out their dominance situation. No clear winner yet. From what I could observe, it was for the most part very "by the rules", just pushing and huffing at each other, circling each other and trying to mount, and some boxing. It did start to get rougher towards the end, I think because they started to become frustrated, so I broke it off at that point. Better to give them some time to cool off and think about whether it's worth keeping it up. I don't think anyone was actually intending to get violent, it's just that the pup started to get quite worked up and started to rush him (not like trying to attack him, just running all about really fast) and Pulla was clearly starting to get quite unsettled by it and started kicking back.
Pulla seems to be at a clear disadvantage. He's ceding ground constantly. During the whole thing, the pup was constantly the one coming out on top, and Pulla was always the one who fled to a different spot. Makes sense, since he is not as young and energetic, and also just seems to not be exactly the bravest one in general. I think the main hurdle here is that according to my experiences, Pulla has a really hard time admitting that he's not going to win, so he just keeps refusing to submit, and it goes on and on. I think what needs to happen is simply him being worn down after some time and figuring that it's better to just give it up and carry on with things. I don't really see him winning this in any case.
I think it's a very good sign that after I separated them, they were back to normal pretty much immediately and kept coming back to check on each other through the divider, sitting together and so on, without any sign of actual aggression or trying to do anything through the bars. It could well be that since they're both lonely degus, it will simply take them some time to actually figure out how to make this work. They certainly both enjoy the grooming and the fact that there is another degu nearby.
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Post by teemu on Jul 18, 2023 19:01:05 GMT
The second time today went much the same, but did not end on a good note. I allowed the situation to continue a bit longer than last time, since it basically has to reach some sort of a resolution, and it followed a similar pattern and started actually looking pretty ugly. When I intervened, they were definitely no longer in just boxing and pushing territory. It did not go into an FBOD, but I basically threw my (protected) hand between them when the pup actually jumped towards Pulla, and Pulla grabbed him with both hands. I'm not sure if it would have gone into a full ball situation (I basically pushed the boy away and put a hand between them as soon as I saw them going into full contact as aggressively as they did), but it certainly seemed like it could have, and they were both heated up enough afterwards that I just separated them and called it off for today. Very scary.
The problem seems to be, to my eye, that Pulla shows zero interest in trying to dominate the pup, but is also absolutely unwilling to be pushed around. So that basically gives the pup total free reign to come at him without any serious active pushback. He sets the pace. I'm not sure if it's due to the fact that Pulla's neutered, or because he's just not young and energetic any more, but it kind of feels like he's not even playing the same game as the boy most of the time, so to speak. I'm not totally sure what is needed here.
They did groom and socialize again before they started to squabble, so at least they aren't growing to hate each other, but I fear that if something doesn't change, the situation might be stuck in a frustrating and potentially dangerous stalemate. When the pup starts making moves on him, it basically just becomes a repeating pattern of him pushing at Pulla, Pulla trying to rebuff him, then running away, and the boy chasing him to do it again. The only thing that develops from that is that Pulla starts to become increasingly agitated and starts pushing back harder and harder, until the situation seems really volatile.
They do calm down very quickly afterwards, which is good. Pulla went to sleep (these things seem to tax him a lot so he sleeps upwards of an hour after) and the boy is just exploring and eating like normal. It's just quite nerve-wracking to keep an eye on it and try to referee the situation, since when the situation starts to go bad, it goes quickly.
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Post by teemu on Jul 20, 2023 21:24:39 GMT
For the past two days we changed things up, and it seems to be working. At first I thought that it would work out better for Pulla if we did this by just allowing them to visit each other in the cage without the divider, but that seems to have been a bad call. I changed to taking them to the kitchen yesterday, and there has been a notable change. It's only been short whiles for now, because I think the pup needs to get used to the environment and all, but it already seems to have made Pulla a lot more comfortable with the whole situation. In the kitchen, Pulla seems to be a lot more actively interested in the pup and participates in the socializing actively instead of just being passive. He goes to the pup by himself, offers grooming and has even made some moves that seem like careful attempts at dominant behavior (non-aggressive grabbing, careful circling etc). The boy has obviously been quite excited and has not had a lot of time to focus on any of it, but he does reciprocate to the socializing and they've spent a lot of time just grooming and sitting together. Luckily, there was no bad blood between them after the heated up conclusion of that last time two days ago. They were right back to grooming and hanging out like nothing had happened. I think what was going on was purely Pulla being totally unwilling to participate in any of this with a stranger in his home and reacting really badly, which then riled the pup on as well. Hopefully, these kitchen meetings will them sort it out more constructively. Here is a clip from their latest meeting: www.youtube.com/watch?v=TckTToFUoCU
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Post by teemu on Jul 23, 2023 16:08:25 GMT
It's sadly looking less and less like this will work out. They're stuck in that same cycle. What's more, the pup is actually fairly nasty about any attempts to submit him. Pulla has tried it a bit over the past few days, and he is rebuffed very harshly. I'm fairly sure he got bit today, though I could not find a wound on him (and he seems to be doing normally, he was just very pained and shocked). He attempted to mount, and as soon as he had any hold on the boy, he spun around faster than I could really see to get his nose on Pulla, and there was a loud scream. I did not see if there was an actual bite, but it very much looked like there could have been. After that, the pup started going after Pulla really harshly, and I had to call it off quickly because he was circling Pulla in a way that did not look at all like social fighting or squabbling any more...
I'm really bummed that it's not working out. They love grooming each other and it's all sunshine for about ten to fifteen minutes when they meet, and then it starts to go bad. The kitchen helped a bit, but now it's back to the same as before. I'm particularly worried at how rough the pup seems to get if he experiences any actual, active pushback. Pulla is really distressed right now and looks absolutely dejected after he got essentially assaulted for daring to attempt anything at all. I can't really see this going in a better direction in any near future. They'd have to sort out their hierarchy, but both are absolutely unwilling to give at all. And I'm very worried now that trying to force the issue could go actually bad.
I'm considering contacting the breeder, as per our discussion about how if it doesn't seem to be working out at all we could/should consider other options. I would assume that Pulla would do a lot better with a female companion now, since he has gotten much better about not just freaking out and losing his nerves when he has to come into contact with another degu. There likely would not be nearly as much fighting for dominance in this way.
It's strange how fine those two are with each other when they don't have an opportunity to try to sort things out. They're sitting on the opposite sides of the divider right next to each other without really seeming like they're posturing or being aggressive at all...
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Post by savvy on Jul 23, 2023 18:02:15 GMT
I think you need to take a step back and give them a bit more time and space. Introductions can take a while and you may be going a bit too fast for them.
But I think it can work out.
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Post by teemu on Jul 23, 2023 20:27:47 GMT
It's true that it has not been long at all, and that these things can take time. I'm mainly worried about how badly they seem to mismatch, here. It could of course be that the boy's adolescence is affecting things a lot, and things could calm down after a few months as he starts to get over that. But as it is now, Pulla does not really seem to have any tools to deal with him, and the way he reacts seems to make the pup genuinely mad.
I wonder if it would be for the best to only allow them to meet for short periods for now? They seem to follow a very similar pattern every time, where they first meet, cuddle up, groom each other and seem to enjoy the moment, and only after that they start to get handsy with each other. Would it leave a better impression and make them feel better about each other if they had only limited interactions, but those were much more positive? Or would it be better to simply allow them to interact through the divider but not more?
When they are separated, they often do interact through the bars, and even try to gnaw at the bars like they want to get through. It does not seem to me like aggression or wanting to scrap at all. It kind of feels like the way they get into those fights is not even what they intend to begin with, and instead something that just starts to happen when they spend a bit of time together. Like how some people just rub off badly on each other and start to become annoyed, even if their intentions were good. Especially for the pup, the way he behaves often seems to be genuinely puzzled and/or annoyed (perhaps even outraged) at how Pulla is behaving, more so than simple dominant behavior. Maybe because Pulla essentially just gives him the cold shoulder most of the time about it all and starts to immediately get very defensive.
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Post by teemu on Jul 27, 2023 18:11:27 GMT
Things have continued quite similarly. They meet, they socialize for a bit, and then the boy starts trying to mount Pulla, and Pulla starts getting bent out of shape. But I think today was the first day that was a bit different than before, and also possibly a bit more promising.
Today, they ignored each other longer than usual, and when they met, the newcomer immediately started attempting to mount, instead of the usual greetings (it's very careful, he's certainly not trying to jump on top of him or anything, he just attempts to stand up against him and discreetly shuffle towards the rear). However, while Pulla did not submit to it, his reactions were more muted and passive. He just waddled away, and at most gave the boy a half-hearted push. It kind of looks like he might be starting to realize that it'll be way easier to just not bother?
They also started grooming after that had gone on a bit, but the boy was obviously quite determined today, so the grooming was often interrupted when he started trying to siddle up behind Pulla again. Pulla was a lot slower to start getting actually heated up over it, so there was a long period of awkward waddling and shuffling. It did start to eventually get more heated again and Pulla started to push back, but it was much more delayed this time. There were even moments where they were actually pushing each other without any actual anger. No teeth chittering or fur puffing like usual, until at the end where I decided to call it off because I could see Pulla starting to get actually worked up again.
I think it's a good sign. Pulla's learning to tolerate this more. It's understandable that he'd have some issues accepting that there's some youngster pushing him around now. He was obviously not exactly happy about it, but seemed to have processed that it may not be the end of the world.
The difference in attitudes is quite notable, though. While Pulla is obviously very defensive, the pup does not really seem to get worked up at all, other than when the old man starts actually getting bent out of shape. I can always distract the boy immediately by rattling the seed box, and he just forgets Pulla for a bit and comes over. Meanwhile, while this is going on, Pulla is in such a defensive knot that he's basically unresponsive to all that. But he seems to be working through it. It's kind of like when a rowdy group of youngsters has that one member who can't handle the horseplay and gets genuinely angry at some point.
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Post by teemu on Jul 29, 2023 17:52:20 GMT
Today was the next meeting. I've given them a day between each meeting to ensure that nobody feels too rushed. They're sharing the cage anyway so it's not like they're not in close vicinity anyway. I think today went a lot better than any previous time!
They both seemed quite careful in the kitchen, and spent a long time not even approaching each other. I think the newcomer has started to understand that Pulla can't just be approached head-on, and it almost seemed like he was trying to think of ways to work things out with the old man. I think I even heard him whine a couple of times as he went close and came back away, as if he was genuinely distressed about this. Pulla also seemed a lot more careful. They spent almost fifteen minutes just going around the room by themselves. All the previous meetings have resolved to the unproductive fighting phase in that time.
When they finally came together, it was similar to the last time, with more mixed arguing and grooming. And then, amazingly enough, Pulla allowed himself to be mounted. It was only once, and he was really tense during it, just ears down and eyes narrow, but he allowed it to go on for a good while before the boy's grooming became too harsh and he finally complained and pulled himself away. It was the only time this happened, and afterwards he avoided the boy's advances again for a bit, and then they both again separated and seemed to just decide to do something else. I let them roam for about ten minutes, but they did not approach each other again. I think it's still a good sign, probably? It kind of feels like they're respecting each other's space more and taking care about how to manage this.
One weird thing I've noticed is that Pulla no longer uses their shared sand bath. Instead, he rolls around on the floor in the sand the boy kicks out from the bowl when he's rolling around. And it's not because he doesn't want to get in at the same time, because he keeps out of it even when the boy's not in there - or even in the kitchen. I bring Pulla in before the boy, and he just looks at the sand bath and starts rolling on the floor, even before there's sand there. So he clearly wants to sand bathe, but it kind of feels like he's considering it the pup's territory now, and is not going in. It's strange.
(I did change the vessel I use for it recently, since Pulla genuinely could not get over the edge of the taller box that we've used before. But it had been the same low glass baking pan for a couple of weeks already, and he had no problem using it before the boy came.)
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