Bar Chewing + Lone Degu Alert

[davethedegu]

Hello, I would like to apologise for how long this is about to be, I am at work while writing this as I am stressing about my beloved Degu; Dave.

Information on Dave
-Adopted from Pets at Home in the rehoming section, staff were very vague with the details but he had been brought back twice after two failed attempts at reintroducing him to other males I believe. So he had a patch that was still healing when I got him and holes in his ears.
-They would not confirm his age but they said he had been there for over 10 months when I got him on the 22nd of May 2017. 
-I have not personally checked that he his a male, the last month there has been a lot of bonding between me and him so I could definitely attempt checking, I have only read Degutopias technique on this which is lifting gently by the tail while they are eating oats on a flat surface is this the best way?
-He was very skittish for the first couple of weeks we had him, not sure if this was just how he was settling in as the staff said he was handled a lot. After that, he was very sleepy and after I'd let him out for a run he wouldn't do much else.
-Now he is super energetic and interactive, he has been in this cage www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00GO0K80W/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 since I got him.

What it is that I am stressing about 
What I have been concerned with from the beginning is that he was going to be alone. I asked pets at home about what they thought on neutering and finding him a female and they said they advised against it which I understand but they have pretty bad advise quite a bit of the time (example; they tried to sell me that stupid cage made of wire mesh that everyone complains about). After having him a couple of months I did not see any fur pulling or other distressed or depressed behaviour other than maybe sleeping more then I expected but I wasn't sure as I have never owned a Degu. Since I moved him into my bedroom he has been coming out way more and we have bonded a ton! The trouble is now we are quite attached I always worry about him when I'm not there, I leave the radio on for him when I am at work and if I sleep over at friends I always make sure my mum is there to hide treats and generally interact with him. Over the last month or so he has started chewing the bars in the mornings when I would first get up so I started letting him out in the mornings before work (very problematic when he decides he doesn't want to come back in but pumpkin seeds solved that) as well as when I got back from work. Then he started coming in the bathroom with me when I go for a bath. I buy him new toys literally every week as well as give him cardboard boxes, tubes, sheets, kitchen roll and he has a big metal wheel from tic tac. I just cannot stop him from bar chewing, I have put cardboard round where he was chewing, wedged bendy log bridge and he always managed to get around it or chew till he gets to the bars. I try not to get him out straight after he does it because I'm not sure if he is doing it to try and get out or not so I don't want to encourage it. It is always the same spot next to his food bowl or a small exposed bit of bar on top of his nesting box. Also, note that he talks a lot which he never did when we first got him, he makes the adorable little bubbly soothing sounds and also barks when any of the family get home. He loves listening to other Degu's chatting to each other when I give him cuddles.  

I knew when I got him I would have to spend a lot of time with him so I don't want to come across as complaining about it, however, there is only so much I can do. I just can't be with him all day every day. I'm scared to neuter him in case he doesn't make it, or I put him through all of that and he doesn't even get on with the females. What if he just doesn't like other goos? 

The big questions

How terrible is it for a Degu to live alone?

Does Dave need a bigger cage?

Should introductions of same sex/opposite sex Degus be left to more experienced owners?

What could the bar chewing mean?

- Thank you so much if you took the time to read all this, I can be very dramatic but I am generally consumed by this issue at the moment. 

[deguconvert]

Hello Davethedegu, and welcome to the forum!!

Well, I think the first thing to do is to confirm that he is indeed male. This will help with that. deguworld.proboards.com/thread/13070/degus

Then you need to know that introductions can take a while, and we should not stress ourselves over the fact that they are slow. Slow is most often better than too rushed with degus intros. You need to decide if you want to have him neutered and then introduced to a female, or if you want to intro another male (Or even a pair of other males. Three is a good number for degu relationships.)

Introductions guides here deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17619/deguconverts-detailed-introductions-fighting-guide and here deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17618/introductions-fighting-quick-guide

For any introductions, male to male, male to female, female to female, you need to have two cages so that they can have their own space, and so the cages can sit side by side and they can grow accustomed to each other.

If you want to go with the female companion, you need to have a good vet that has a lot of experience with degus. This link deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15521/vet-guide has several vets that have proven to be excellent with degus. Perhaps there is one near you. If not, you need to understand that degu testes are not on the exterior, like they are with rats and mice, but they are inside the abdominal cavity and as a result the surgery required in more complicated and it has a longer recovery time for the degu. You absolutely have to have a vet that is not only aware of this, but has several successful surgeries under his belt. There is a six week period of time following surgery that ensures that no live sperm is still located in the body, and therefore no unplanned pregnancies.

The cage is, to be honest, shockingly small. I saw the picture and thought, "Hmmm! That doesn't look too bad!" Then I looked at the dimensions and it is REALLY small! So, here is a link to our cage size recommendations deguworld.proboards.com/thread/9396/forums-cage-size-recommendations

Once you have read through these things, I am sure you will have more questions, or you may feel the need for clarification, and that is totally good and acceptable. We expect and encourage questions! Please ask away and we will do our best to be of help!

[bouncy]

Hi, and thank you for such detailed infomation! The more info we have, the more we can help!

OK, first off, it's not good for Dave to be alone, as you guessed. There are a few exceptions, but degus are very social creatures, needing bonding, grooming, cuddles, and a social structure. If a degu doesn't have company with another goo, they can become depressed (yes, really!), and you will start to see repetitive or self-harming behaviour. Although not exclusive, signs of this stress can be fanatical chewing, over-grooming to the point where they create bald spots on their bodies or legs, and general lethargy. Humans can provide company, but this comes nowhere close to what they need.

You'll notice that lone goos tend to interact a lot more with humans, which is very sweet and heartwarming, but us slaves are far from being surrogate goos. I mean, just imagine the fur in your teeth if you groomed them properly!

As he is at the moment, Dave's cage is probably JUST OK, but bigger is always better. You can make some modifications to help him, but you'd need to make some changes if you get him a bud. As a general rule, we recommend footprint dimensions of 100cm x 50cm. The amount of floorspace is based on the number of goos you have. We have a very handy guide in our cages section. The reason we recommend such a large footprint is because goos cover a massive territory in the wild. The length also give them a chance to get up to speed when they run. When he gets a bud, size becomes even more important, because they're extremely territorial. Anything too small, and they'll fight. This doesn't mean your cage expense is a waste - you can join it to others, add extra levels - there's loads of ideas in the cages section!

Now for the companion bit. Introductions are hard. There's no two ways about it. Linking to the previous about cage size, it might be why previous introductions have failed. If you think of the size of the Thickets cage that P@H recommend........ The Degutopia guide for intros isn't bad. Again, there's more information in the Fighting and Introductions section, but you'll see that one of our members was working at an intro for two years!

Now, who could he live with? In theory, any goo! You just need patience. Some decide to introduce a lone male with a female. This is an option that many have success with. There are a couple of problems, tho. First of all females are VERY fertile, and can be impregnated as soon as they've given birth! This means that Dave will have to have the snip! This isn't as simple as it is with things like rabbits. Degus testes are inside the abdominal cavity, so surgery is required. They then have a six week period before they can be given the all clear. HOWEVER there's no reason why you can't start the introductions process if side-by-side living in this time. Some also take the pup approach. Goos make GREAT dads. If pups are young enough (up to 12 weeks), he may just accept them as his own and take on the dad role. There is, however, NO guarantee. I've personally had great results with this.

First things first, tho......is Dave a, well, Dave, or a Davina? To be honest, it doesn't matter how you get to look, what you need to find out is the distance between their bum hole and their cone. Both male and female goos have a cone. The difference between the two is whether there's a gap. If there's no gap between the two, you have a Davina. If there is a gap (up to 1cm?), then you have a Dave.

Hope this helps, but PLEASE keep asking questions. Degus are unique compared to other pets, and you'll find a wealth of knowledge and experience on here

[misscatafer]

It sounds like he is bar chewing out of stress and loneliness. I'm sure once Dave has some company you will see a reduction in this behavior. I recently rehomed a little boy who I got neutered. He now lives with an older female who was also alone for a few years and both are very happy and in love If you have any questions about neutering I am happy to answer them as I recently went through this myself. It was the best decision I made for him, he had been alone for at least a year before. I felt extremely guilty about putting him through surgery, but it was 100% worth it as now he is fully recovered and has a companion for life.

[davethedegu]

Thank you for such detailed posts with all the help I really appreciate it, I feel like a pretty crappy degu owner right now. I am so lucky because I love round the corner from Nine Lives vets who I should of gone to for advise and check up when I first got him and was thinking about getting him done as I knew that they did specialise in exotic pets but in my head exotic pets mean reptiles.

Okay I just had a peep underneath and I can confirm with 99.9% confidence that he is indead a male. Would love to introduce him to a couple of males and not have to get him done but il definitely feel more comfortable now if I did go down that route. I will definitely be phoning my bets tomorrow morning to see what they suggest is best.

I feel awful about his cage size, I guess I never thought to check as I just saw the dimensions were bigger then the pets at home one and thought it was okay. I had my eye on the big Savic XL one but it has plastic trays and the Liberta 2nd Edition Explorer that is smaller but does have metal trays but might not be ideal for three degus.

Next Question

I definitely want to try to go with the introduction of a male pair (might change after I speak with vet), will the cage Dave is in now be suitable for him to stay in during the introduction process? (note: I took the third level out so I could add more jumping spaces with ledges and such was this the right thing to do or should I put the other level back in?)

thankyou

[misscatafer]

Love your picture of Dave, what a sweetie good news too that you are confident he is a male. Well if you are planning on getting a few more degus, how about you buy a big enough cage for all of them, put the new degus in the new cage and leave Dave in his cage, then have the cages side by side for introductions? Introductions will take many months, Especially if you want to take on an established pair/group, so I would advise to put the full level back in to give Dave as much room as possible for now.

Just to prepare you, introductions are not easy and take a long time, think months. I rescued my former lone female in the hope of pairing her with two young girls. I was completely under prepared and had unrealistic expectations - thinking it would only take a few weeks. I rushed them into it, resulting in them developing a firm grudge for her. After 4 months of trying, I admitted defeat and adopted Toby, the male I neutered. I am now in the process of introducing all 4 to each other, but from experience I am now much more prepared and aware this could take me years.

I would say the most successful pairing you will have will be with another lone male who is desperate for company, or pups who will not be into adolescence yet. From his approximate age, he may still be in the teenage stage himself. Or you can again consider the neutering option, to pair him with a lone female or multiple females. Have you any ideas where you would look for other degus? The Facebook rehoming site is useful and lists several rescue centres as well as people needing new homes for their loved ones.

[bouncy]

Firstly, I have three goos in a liberta. I also used the stand and created a basement for them. Could you perhaps do that with yours? Alternatively, could you leave off the end panels and join two of yours together?

Whereabouts are you and Dave? It helps, as we can recommend rescues and places that may help!

[davethedegu]

Yes I will definitely be taking my time on introductions especially after reading more on the subject. The only trouble is I remember the whole reason I took the level out was so I could fit a wheel in (I feel depressed I didn't realise how small the cage was before)

And yes bouncy I saw your thread about your basement extension, my current cage is so flimsy I don't think it could support anything on the bottom and not sure if I could take the end panel off and attach it to another cage unless it was the same which I don't want to buy another cage the same as it. Update as I am writing this: I just ordered the double Critter Nation and it should come on the weekend, this way if I think that (hopefully) the future goos need more space I can buy another and double them up.

I live in Hertfordshire near St Albans

[davethedegu]

And yes advice would be helpful on where to get Dave some friends, I'd love to try and find a younger pair so maybe Dave will find it easier like you guys said but as I'm still not sure of his age if he is a teen still could this be a bad option? Is there any way for the vet to know the age of a goo with teeth or something?

[bouncy]

OK, you're in luck! You're not a million miles away from Little Bites in Luton. The reason I suggest you contact this rescue is that they are good at helping you with introductions. They know the ages of their goos, and are in a very good place to recommend potential cagemate.

[Deleted]

Hi there!

I have the cage you have for Dave. It was all I could afford when I first joined here a while ago when I first got my two degus from P@H (they were in a terrible Thicketts).

We made an extension on it using the stand! Covered the base of the stand with tiles, used thick mesh around the outsides and then wooden batons to give it structure, added a short full level in (short as in height, it's where they nest now as degus like areas with little headroom) and then a big tall level at the bottom, so the cage went from 3 levels to 5! The big bottom level created enough room for the required wheel (12 inches in diameter as the very minimum) and most of us buy them from Tic Tac (www.tictacwheels.co.uk I think, or just google tic tac wheels).

The cage would be fine with a basement. It's not hard to do and I have no DIY skills lol. I wouldn't have three degus in there though, it would be too small. I have my two sisters in mine (the rest have an Aventura each now (I have three pairs of two degus and a chin so I have 4 cages in total).

You could connect the two cages, the critter nation and the old one. You wouldn't need to take a side panel out and having a spare cage you can cut off access to is always handy for fighting or injured / surgery recovering degus. You could use some extremely thick tubing (like plumbing tube stuff?) if you made the basement section and attach it into the mesh of the basement on one of the side mesh walls, across to the critter nation, or anywhere really. The bars cut quite easily, we had to cut a hole out of the base of the cage you have (we cut many holes actually lol) and used a metal file thing. Just file away and eventually they'll snap.

It's not too unstable that you couldn't take a side panel off but the difference in depth would cause a problem, I don't think the cage is quite as deep as a critter nation/Aventura etc. So a tube connection would work best. Maybe do it at the top? When they're both on their stands they are pretty much the same height.

I failed miserably with Female on Female pairings.

I ended up getting two males neutered (one was neutered by a rescue and one myself) to go with my two lone females as they wouldn't be friends with each other. They're super happy and I'm glad I made the choice. My vets did a brilliant job and they aren't exotics specialists or anything but do have good degu experience. They're happy as can be now in their little marriages!

M/F pairings tend to be easier re introductions. Mine ended up being about 3-4 weeks for each pair, with one or two face to face meetings a week. It's just not without its risks re neutering. Try males first perhaps and if you're having absolutely no luck, it's always an option to neuter little Dave?

With the females I was trying for nearly a year to no avail. Any of them.

I would definitely try Little Bites and see what degus they could suggest and how they could help. Some rescues will help you until you find a suitable match and they settle happily.

[Deleted]

That's what ours looks like with the basement

[deguconvert]

I have a question about the cage? Are these dimensions "Product Dimensions 35 x 24 x 24 cm" which I copied from the link Dave provided not accurate or correct? The picture looks like it should be bigger than that, but the description says it is really tiny.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2017 13:44:46 GMT deguconvert said:

I have a question about the cage? Are these dimensions "Product Dimensions 35 x 24 x 24 cm" which I copied from the link Dave provided not accurate or correct? The picture looks like it should be bigger than that, but the description says it is really tiny.

No those dimensions are very very wrong lol, I'll find the correct ones now hang on.


It's: 82 x 54 x 158 ☺️

[ntg]

It's 82x54x158 DC

[davethedegu]

The cage is 83 x 54 x 158

I have tried to call Little Bites but both numbers just hang up instantly, I have left an email.

I love the basement Emily! I will definitely see what I can do with that extra space at the bottom and attaching the two cages together but like you said the depth difference will be a bit of an issue so when it comes i can see what options I have. I'm glad all your Degus found buddies! Hopefully Fave can too

[ntg]

They're pretty active on their facebook group, if you have an account:

m.facebook.com/groups/206541636146116

[davethedegu]

See I couldn't get a 12inch wheel between the levels when I had the first plastic wheel and getting a metal one through the door meant I had to get a 10 inch wheel when I bought the tic tac one and I couldn't wedge it through like the previous plastic one so I need to order 12 inch for the new cage but this is his cage now and yes I taped the outside because before I got him I was so scared of him slipping through as those latch bits gape open on mine quite a bit, he also has no digging area, he used to but never showed much interest however he does like the meadow digging box things that they can pull apart:


Should I put the other level back in? He is on pets at him degu food as it what he was one when I got him, is this something that should urgently change?

[deguconvert]

I am super tired this morning and it took me several minutes of staring at your photo above, thinking that door opens really weird, to then realize that the photo is on it's side . . . along with all the other things in the photo, most notably the degu BESIDE the strange door. ROFL!!

I would most definitely put the third level back in . . . though with only him in there right now, he has lots of space to make use of. Hmmm . . . what are the thoughts of the rest of you lot?


OOPS Edit: I had intended to say it is a relief to find out that your cage is NOWHERE near as small as I was believing from the dimensions listed on the link. What a HUGE relief!! So please disregard my earlier comments about how "really small" it is. It's good.

[misscatafer]

I too could not work this photo out.... DC you were not alone!! I have just got up after a night shift though do that is my excuse . But Hi Dave!!! (I never saw him either)