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Post by moletteuk on Mar 21, 2017 17:39:20 GMT
I've just been having a look on deguforum.de for any cases of incisor extraction. I haven't found anything, but I might have missed something. I can't figure out the proper german word for extraction in a dental context. Incisor is Vorderzahn (Vorderzähne plural) if anyone else wants to try looking. I see Maravilla was around this morning, you could PM her, she would probably remember if there have been any tooth extractions.
The other thing I was thinking is that I think you need to wait to see if he is wearing his molar teeth adequately. There is quite a gap between the incisors and the cheek teeth, so it is possible that the misalignment is not enough to affect them, so it could be OK, but I think you need to know for sure before any surgery is considered.
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Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Mar 21, 2017 18:57:03 GMT
I can ask my german veterinary surgeon friend for the phrase, I'll message her now. And I'll drop Maravilla a PM.
I came to the conclusion earlier that I'm not going to rush into that option, and definitely not taking it without Molly's second opinion. They're staying overnight as I had to get the boiler man out to fix the boiler this afternoon so couldn't pick them up; this turned out to be fortuitous in the end as an emergency surgery happened for another critter and Vicky couldn't get to burring his teeth today, so she'll do them tomorrow morning (which means I don't get charged for the overnight stay - it's only £10, but those £10s are adding up at the moment...)
His molars have been growing unevenly, but we weren't sure whether that was due to him holding his jaw awry from the abscesses. I'm interested to see the xrays tomorrow.
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Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Mar 21, 2017 20:34:09 GMT
moletteuk : "Zahnextraktion would be the proper term, Zähne ziehen/Schneidezähne ziehen would be the lay term." Off to rummage the forums myself with pidgin German (Uh, which forums am I looking for?)
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 21, 2017 20:36:00 GMT
lol sort of same as english, ziehen is 'pull'.
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Post by ntg on Mar 21, 2017 21:00:36 GMT
It's incisor extraction that the vet tried on Pippin two years ago (his were misaligned). I wish I had better news but they broke his jaw and it got an infection that just ate away at his jaw so we had to put him down after a month of palliative care. I was absolutely fuming by that point though as I asked the vet if she'd performed it as I knew it would be risky, she said yes she had and recommended it over the burring then after proceeded to say "it's never happened when I've done it in rabbits." It's still a sore spot to this day.
A CT scan for £1000 seems high - the Edinburgh uni vets quoted me £250 for full body for Sherlock.
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Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Mar 21, 2017 22:18:44 GMT
@ntg I appreciate the honesty. My German reptile vet friend (who has been invaluable throughout this) did a search in what I think is the main German degu forum, and basically said the same thing - the risk of damage to the jaw is very high.
I've *tentatively* and *very carefully* posted on the German degu forum in the health section, giving a brief description of the problem and asking for any experience that anyone has with this. I'm waiting to be roasted over (pick one of: ) burring without anaesthetic, posting using google translate, or them telepathically realising I have a grey degu (their T&Cs, when translated to English, specifically prohibit young people and coloureds from posting. Which my friend says is a major GT fail, it should say that it is forbidden to post about breeding, selective or otherwise, or the sale of offspring. Which is a completely different kettle of fish.)
(As an amusing aside, I love that they also warn I should be presumptious in my use of irony. I love being presumptious but it usually bites me on the ass, and I think that's what would happen here if I attempted it...)
My friend also suggested I email a lecturer from her university (in Germany) to ask if they have any information on the procedure, as I cannot find any in English. I've sent it, hopefully, but also mindful that I sent the email in English, I don't know this professor lady from any other person in Germany (except my friend), and I've no idea what the etiquette is about sending emails to lecturers in other countries about information that they probably have that I don't. So here's hoping!
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Post by ntg on Mar 21, 2017 22:30:14 GMT
You (or your vet) could also try emailing the exotics part of Edinburgh Uni while you're on, or the Royal Veterinary College for closer to home although I don't think they have the exotics facilities that we do (not that I'm biased ). Edinburgh said they deal with a lot of degus so maybe they've seen something somewhat similar and have a suggestion for treatment. Their jaws really are delicate so I'm not surprised that extremely risky is the answer you've gotten so far!
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Post by zenaida on Mar 21, 2017 23:26:35 GMT
Wow, this is so complex, it is fascinating to read. Wishing the best for you with this decision making process!
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Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Mar 21, 2017 23:28:15 GMT
I don't know exactly how I accomplished this, but I've just managed to download an electronic copy of Dentistry in Rabbits and Rodents, the textbook written by the german professor that my friend suggested I email. I will be chugging through that over the next few weeks. It looks heavy going and doesn't cover degus specifically, but it talks a lot about how and why removal might be considered, appropriate management of dental spurs and a few other things that will be really really useful to me now, and to others in the future. Only concern I currently have is "how did I manage this?" I literally googled the book title, checked out each link in turn and one turned out to be a direct link to the PDF of the textbook. I am trying not to think too hard about this
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 22, 2017 14:35:58 GMT
Sorry Ntg, I should have remembered that Pippin's troubles started with an attempted extraction I can't find the T&Cs for deguforum.de Are you sure they aren't saying no photos of youngsters and coloureds, or unnecessary mention of babies and colours? When I was looking yesterday I came across mention of burring without sedation, so no worries there. Could you send me the link to the dental book, please?
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Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Mar 22, 2017 15:42:31 GMT
Sorry Ntg, I should have remembered that Pippin's troubles started with an attempted extraction I can't find the T&Cs for deguforum.de Are you sure they aren't saying no photos of youngsters and coloureds, or unnecessary mention of babies and colours? When I was looking yesterday I came across mention of burring without sedation, so no worries there. Could you send me the link to the dental book, please? It's under their netiquette section, and it's badly translated by google translate. My friend said it was referring more to breeding and sale of offspring/coloured variants- no support to be given to those wanting to breed degus on purpose. dlx.bookzz.org/genesis/1319000/2a41c559fd8830b6cc25323db8828bb4/_as/%5BEstella_Böhmer%5D_Dentistry_in_Rabbits_and_Rodents(BookZZ.org).pdfI'm ploughing through it in small chunks, it's really interesting, particularly about management of spurs on the molar teeth. Update critterwise: Zoe's come through well, and is charming Vicky and the nurses with his friendliness I've explained that I don't want tooth extraction due to the very high risk of breaking the jaw, she was ok with this. I told her I'd emailed Estella, she was aware of Estella's work and said any input Estella has would be gratefully received.
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Post by Maravilla on Mar 22, 2017 16:51:19 GMT
I just answered you PN. I haven't read the posts here before doing so. It seems, you already got some answers and made your decision.
Just to answer the question about babys, colours etc. in the deguforum: We ask people not to post photos of degu babys (younger than 6-8 weeks) without real need. And we ask people not to mention the colour of their degus in the adoption zone to make sure all degus have equal chances. When there are photos of either babys or coloured degus in the other boards, we post a tag with some explanations.
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Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Mar 22, 2017 17:15:05 GMT
Maravilla, I've not come to a complete decision yet. At the moment I'm not wanting the procedure to be done right now, because my vet is inexperienced with the procedure in degus and because I'm struggling to find any "happy" stories of removing all the incisor teeth. I'm still looking for information because it might one day come to needing extraction; at the moment Vicky thinks we can hold him stable with fortnightly burring, and I'm wanting to see if the laser therapy makes any difference first. I'll have a read through your PM shortly, when I can be on the computer and not the mobile app (can't read and reply at the same time on the app), but I appreciate you joining in here
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Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Mar 22, 2017 19:56:23 GMT
I have sent an email to the Director of the Hospital of Small Animals at the Uni of Edinburgh's veterinary school, outlining Zoe's case and asking whether he (or to signpost me to a colleague if necessary) has any thoughts on potential treatment options we could explore. I haven't yet heard from Dr Bohmer, but as I understand it she is a very prominent expert in the field of small animal dentistry, so I am not expecting a fast reply from her as I'm sure she's incredibly busy. My friend put me in contact with an exotics specialist in Norway, who is very impressed that Zoe is still alive - apparently abscesses in dental disease carry a pathetically poor prognosis. I'm very glad I didn't know this back in January! Anyway, we've talked and she feels that the current management plan is probably the best for Zoe, as in the long term incisor extraction is likely to be unsuccessful and the roots difficult to destroy without damaging the jaw irreparably. So, all in all? Zoe's home, he's looking a bit miserable but I expect he'll perk up after some Metacam. Nyota is sitting on him currently keeping him warm, and there are nuts and soft foods available in the cage for him to eat when he's feeling better. He's certainly lively enough when I bring him out of the cage, but is very squinty-eyed which is my usual cue for painkillers. He's due them in 5 minutes and he'll get them on the dot His long-term prognosis isn't great, but his quality of life is currently ok and will probably be better when he's feeling a little less rough from the dental work. The Norwegian vet gave me a reasonable checklist for "is he enjoying life at the moment?", which basically tallies with my unofficial mental checklist, and we'll be playing it by ear until I hear from the various specialists.
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 22, 2017 20:34:16 GMT
Wow, you've been busy It sounds like you are getting things clearer in your own mind, which is always a good thing for important health decisions. Remind me how old Zoe is? Did they get the xrays today? Have you had a chance to look at them or discuss them with the vet?
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Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Mar 22, 2017 20:48:57 GMT
Zoe is ~4 years old, possibly older (there was all the consternation when I got them that he was neither a girl, nor 6m old...). She took the x-rays today but wasn't there when I picked him up as I finish work later than she works. I will be requesting to see the x-rays on our next burring visit, as I'm also wanting to check there's no goop left in the abscess - she didn't mention it, but he's still getting a little drainage from a tiny hole under his jaw so I want to be as certain as one can be. She did speak to me over the phone, but I hit information overload and wasn't able to take everything in. I'm making a new list of questions, but I'm going to hold off ringing her until I have spoken to one of the specialists. The Director of the Hospital for Small Animals has emailed me back to say he's forwarding my enquiry onto one of the exotic vets, who will be in touch soon I have been busy, and my brain is paying for it, but I am at least sure of one thing - taking those teeth out would be equivalent to having him put down first, but with way more trauma for him, given my vets' current skill level (and they're my area's specialists...) It's not a criticism on them, but more an acknowledgement of the complexity of the task and the high risk of failure. I'm also glad I found that textbook, as I think the section on molar teeth will be really really useful for those dealing with dental spurs - have a look. I'll PM you rather than say what I think in the thread, but it seems to run contrary to what most vets do for dental spurs based on the experiences of those in the forum?
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Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Mar 23, 2017 22:13:16 GMT
So, this evening I looked at him and he's all scruffy and bedraggled. Nyota has been doing some heavy duty grooming, but I've looked him over anyway.
His abscesses have mostly healed, one is still draining from a tiny hole in the scar tissue in his jaw. Last night and today I've noticed way more discharge from that hole, and today it's lightly bloodstained. So tomorrow I'm going to ring the vets and ask, because this could be a good or a bad thing: Good= the laser therapy has done what it said it would and drawn blood to the area, improving blood flow and meaning there's a bit coming out of his jaw. Bad= the infection is picking up again now we've stopped the doxycycline.
I'm going to give him a dose of doxycycline now just in case and will speak to Molly tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 22:24:44 GMT
I hope all goes well, he's in my thoughts ❤❤❤
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Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Mar 25, 2017 21:05:34 GMT
And his tiny drainage hole keeps clogging up and he hates sitting still to have the pus squeezed out... Ain't much fun for me either, bud! To top it all off, I have tonsillitus. Tonsillitis? Tonsilitis? IDK. Nasty white pus-filled throat infection that's aggravating my ears and sinuses too. I have antibiotics but they don't seem to be making a difference (I have only taken 2 doses, so I should probably give them more chance) (Molly and Vicky were at a conference on Friday, I spoke to Craig the exotics vet nurse and he said to keep draining the pus and applying the F10 ointment, and to come back in on Monday if things weren't improving)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 21:17:27 GMT
I used to get tonsillitis every month, tonsils got so scarred over the years I couldn't breathe if I lay on my back, and generally breathing felt crappy. Eventually demanded to see a surgeon after the doctors still wouldn't let me have them removed. Surgeon took one look and was like wtf how are you managing like that? And whipped them out. Boy oh boy was it painful 😂😂 xx antibiotics suck, I ended up never being prescribed them and just fought it myself. I feel for you, tonsillitis sucks butt. I hope all goes well and you don't have to go back Monday
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