|
Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Feb 21, 2017 11:15:57 GMT
Follow appointment #3860716528.... Vicky was slightly alarmed when I mentioned that when I picked him up Wednesday, he already had wonky teeth, and that in the last couple of days one of his top inscisors has been slightly cutting away at his lower lip. She's rasped him again today, and thinks that he's holding his jaw to the left- his teeth were flat in the neutral jaw position, but because he's holding his jaw to the side/the muscle is spasming, it's wearing his teeth unevenly. This then means his teeth grow unevenly, perpetuating the problem. So I'm possibly looking at £20/fortnight rasping plus £20/fortnight taxi bills to get him there and back...I wonder if they do Botox into degu jaw muscles?
|
|
|
Post by Emziedee on Feb 21, 2017 13:33:06 GMT
Love the photo!!
Tibbs teeth are also misaligned, one of the top teeth grows out at an angle and somehow he manages to snap it off when it gets in his way again! Strangely, he also somehow is managing to keep the 3 remaining teeth worn down! Following the X-rays , it looks like he was either born with a complete wonky top set or he developed it at a very young through poor diet.
He has learned to adapt to the issue with the front but will still need spurs burred away as the back doesn't grind like normal teeth.
Not sure when to book the next appt. as he doesn't stop eating and isn't dropping weight but you never know! He had one trapping his tongue before and that never stopped him! He is hard as nails this boy.
Good luck with your little guy, hopefully too he learns some way to manage his incisors himself ❤️
|
|
|
Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Feb 21, 2017 16:10:10 GMT
I did also bring up and discuss calcium:phosphorus with Vicky, to see whether she thought it was worth calcium-supplementing him to see if his teeth weirdness was diet related as they don't really eat pellets any more (they're offered but usually untouched). She was hesitant to suggest adding calcium powder to his diet at this point; she reckoned Timothy hay (not alfalafalalafa or meadow hay) and making sure the seed calcium balance is right first. So I guess that's the next job- somehow working out the calcium:phosphorus ratio of a variety of foodstuffs, half of which are from Germany... good thing I half-speak german and numbers and minerals are relatively universal across Europe
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Feb 21, 2017 20:19:10 GMT
@g&T I don't know what Tibbs is like for being held, but you can buy a cheap mouth scope on Amazon if you thought it would help you keep an eye on his mouth, it's called an otoscope. @tcs guinealynx have a hay nutrition chart www.guinealynx.info/hay_chart.html Weirdly it shows that timothy hay is about the worst choice for calcium content Some figures for plants here: forum.degus-international-community.org/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=855 And our own charts for seeds, but if you are using the SAB mix that should be calculated to be 2:1 anyway. I would happily feed a little alfalfa, in fact I do as my girls rather like it, ribwort plantain and dandelion and kitchen herbs are all particularly good for calcium, you can buy ribwort from JRF @ zooplus.
|
|
|
Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Feb 21, 2017 20:45:13 GMT
My main problem with the endeavour is I have no idea what proportions of plants have gone into the Hansemann's plant mix, so I'm going to have to work based on their list and can only hope they list approximate proportions of plants in their mix. It's interesting about the Timothy hay, they have meadow hay and ribwort in the haybox and I can easily go get some alfalalalafa. (I'm really starting to not care how many l's and f's are in that word) I am feeding a mix of the degu seeds at 2:1 ratio, so I won't mess with that. And they are being offered the JR farm Grainless Guinea pig food pellets. The UV lights are up and running... I'm not certain it's diet because everyone else is fine with their teeth. But I'm willing to look over it all to be sure it's ok
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Feb 22, 2017 11:43:03 GMT
I wouldn't worry about the plant mix, the SAB plant mix was designed to have the right Ca:P so it should be fine, any broad mix of plants should work out fine. Which seed mixes are you using? I think for the two from Ratrations you might be better at 3:1 or 4:1 but I haven't worked out the figures exactly, well, published figures for seeds vary a lot anyway, and we don't really even know how much of the mineral content of the seeds is bio-available to degus anyway. I have had a glance at the treat mix and see that there are some high calcium ones in there and some lower calcium ones in the main mix too. JRF Grainless guinea is a bit low for calcium. I dust it with calcium powder, it's not possible to get the required amount to make it up to 1% calcium stick to the pellets so there isn't much risk of adding too much. My girls like dried veg, I also dust that with calcium sometimes too. I can take you through how much to add if you are interested.
The easiest way to run into trouble with the diet is if you feed grains, they contain so much phosphorus it's virtually impossible to get the diet back in balance for calcium without artificially supplementing.
I think with the diet you describe you are unlikely to run into problems due to diet. You also have the UV lights now which should allow them to process calcium in a more optimal way.
I'm hoping that Zoe's jaw will improve and allow him to line things up better and that the problem will gradually sort itself out, or that he will figure out how to move his jaw to his advantage to wear it himself eventually. If it becomes obvious over time that it isn't going to improve then it may be possible for you to learn to clip it yourself.
|
|
|
Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Mar 8, 2017 19:33:14 GMT
Who wants an update? Me. I need a refresher on what happened today, so you can all have an update while I straighten out in my head what was said. So, we saw Molly today. Turns out Molly doesn't work Tuesdays (my day off) so we've been seeing Vicky, but Vicky wasn't in yesterday so Molly did his follow-up today. I caught Molly up on what's happened in the last two visits and the three weeks around them. I raised my concerns that his teeth are growing longer, faster and asked whether I could rasp him at home. Short answer- nope. Long answer - there's a lawsuit going on in the veterinary world at present against a vet who was shortening guinea pig teeth without anaesthetic (I think it was molar rasping, but still). Because I am consenting every single time she is happy for herself/Vicky to shorten his teeth fortnightly without anaesthetic, but it cannot be done at home - for a start, I'd need a very-high-speed dentist's drill with a diamond-edged rotary disc. There's also the risk of him moving while you do it - at the vets, if he moves and gets cut she can fix it before he bleeds out, if I were doing it at home I don't have that back-up. So we are looking at fortnightly visits still. My next question was "could it be because of the doxycycline?" She looked puzzled at this, so I said that in humans bone and tooth damage is really common with long-term tetracyclines, particularly in babies and children because their teeth and bones are still growing. As degu teeth are constantly growing, and Zoe is possibly trying to repair bone damage from the abscesses, that seemed like a reasonable thought process to me. She looked pole-axed. But, to give her so so so much credit, her next words were "please look into that. We'll stop the doxycycline for now anyway, as his abscesses are healed up, but we use a lot of doxycycline for a lot of our abscess patients because it's got good tissue penetration (pharmacist note: this means it gets everywhere in the body - so it doesn't matter where your infection is, doxy will get there and if the bacteria is susceptible, it should die). If we're fixing the abscess but screwing up their bones, I need to know about it. Please look into this." So then we moved onto "is there any way we can fix this so it doesn't require fortnightly rasping?" She took him to rasp his teeth so that she could check his jaw mobility once that was sorted. Little brat moved his face while she was burring, so he now has a puffy lip. But when she brought him back, she asked me to wiggle his jaw (it doesn't wiggle) and then wiggle Nyota's jaw (it does wiggle). She thinks there is fibrous tissue (scar tissue, I think) under the skin which is restricting his movement. I explained Vicky had floated the possibility of it being either TMJ or a seized-up muscle from holding his jaw funny when it was injured - she says that's possible but there's no "knots" of muscle under the skin. I told her about the electric-toothbrush massages, she laughed and said if he's tolerating it to carry on with that, but all around his head. The jaw muscles extend to the back of the skull (occipital musculature?) and they will be stiffening up from lack of use. She then acknowledged that we're a little short on options, really. She asked me to look into K-laser therapy in the degu world, see if anyone has any experience - she's done it at the specialist vets on guinea pigs with TMJ, it's been shown in cats, dogs and humans to reduce swelling, inflammation and gradually loosen up the "bad" fibrous tissues (ie scars that are inflexible and interfering with function). It's not an expensive option - £10-15/session for 5 sessions, the 6th is free, if it's working you carry on until max benefit is seen and then a maintenance "blast" is given once a week for a few weeks, then stop, and if it isn't working after 6 you stop anyway. I'll be honest, I had already said to myself that if there was an expensive option that had a reasonable chance of working then we'd try it, so I'm leaning towards giving it a go. With regards to x-rays, I asked if she'd be able to see anything on there that would help diagnose/treat the issue, and she said it would depend what it was that the problem is. We're thinking that when I take him back in a fortnight for rasping, they can do it under anaesthetic so they can check his molars, do x-rays and maybe a CT head if he tolerates the anaesthetic well enough. I'm up for x-rays, I'd want a cost estimate of a CT head before I said ok to that. But equally, she might get a research paper out of this, so if I'm lucky she might offer that for free (I'm hopeful but not optimistic. I don't think it's exactly how veterinary surgeries work in the UK...) So I'll make a separate thread asking if anyone has any experience with K-laser therapy on any animal, but there you have it. A long, wordy update. Gratuitous pictures of his sulky face to follow.
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Mar 8, 2017 20:45:45 GMT
Lots of great thought processes going on there, I don't think I have anything to add. Interesting that his jaw doesn't wiggle as much as Nyota's which adds strength to the theory that there is a muscle or scar tissue issue preventing the usual movement.
Is the doxyclcine the one they give humans for acne that leads to teeth discolouration and issues?
|
|
|
Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Mar 8, 2017 20:57:25 GMT
Yep, although the evidence is more there for tetracycline. Tetracyclines are the drug class, tetracycline was the first one and oxytetracycline was the second discovered, they had effects on bone growth (slowed it down) and teeth (discoloured them) that all the other drugs discovered in the class got lumped with the same warnings. There is less evidence for doxy causing those issues than tetracycline, but there is still definite evidence that it causes slower bone growth, so I figure it's worth looking into.
So far all I'm getting are mouse studies saying "if you're a menopausal female mouse, doxycycline is good for your bones but if you're a sham-operated-on mouse it'll screw with your bone growth".
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Mar 9, 2017 16:54:24 GMT
WOW!! That is all very fascinating!! When I was in my senior grades at school (15 years old) I was in a cross country skiing accident and the palms of my hands, and around the ring finger on my right hand, got torn up (never ski on an icy slope next to a chain link fence . . . silly teacher should have known better than to choose that route). The tears were deep and as my muscles healed, the scar tissue forming caused my right hand ring finger and the two either side to curl in. I couldn't straighten it for anything. So I had to have therapy, and one of the things they did was immerse my hand in mild salt water and use ultrasound on it in pulses. When you said about the toothbrush use, I wondered if it would have the same kind of impact. I'm really intrigued to see what will happen with the toothbrush!! And with the laser as well!!
|
|
|
Post by yasmin on Mar 11, 2017 22:24:39 GMT
This is all very interesting.
|
|
|
Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Mar 18, 2017 15:11:46 GMT
Have a 6 minute video on how to massage a degu's face with a toothbrush. Also included: bonus shots of what happens when you try (this video is about 10 days old now, his teeth are in a much worse state today. We're looking at anaesthetic burring on Tuesday, and I've decided we're going to try the laser therapy)
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Mar 18, 2017 21:18:47 GMT
LOVE IT, Titchy!!
|
|
|
Post by winic1 on Mar 18, 2017 22:59:35 GMT
Me too!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 23:49:08 GMT
Aaaaaaaawww!
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Mar 19, 2017 11:52:09 GMT
What a great video, brilliant! You should be on Blue Peter LOL! I know he is wiggly, but he is so tame and handleable compared to mine! The jaw misalignment is really plain to see, really hope the massage and therapy help.
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Mar 19, 2017 19:10:03 GMT
I hope it makes a huge difference for him as well. He's a lovely lad!!
|
|
|
Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Mar 21, 2017 10:38:00 GMT
Half-an-update (rest to follow when I get a phone call from the vets later...)
So, I've turned their little veterinary surgery world upside down. I found conflicting evidence on whether doxycycline affects bone growth in humans the way tetracyclines do, and was honest about this. Turns out, Molly's done her own research in the veterinary journals and has even more concern, so she and Vicky will be talking to the veterinary surgeons who work with the bigger animals (Molly and Vicky only do exotics) to see whether they have ever noticed anything like this. So oops, but I may also have spurred a review of general practice. Which isn't a bad thing. Even if it turns out that doxycycline is ok for the critters, the fact that they're open to suggestions and willing to review practice is a big big plus for me.
Zoe's top teeth are currently growing down and inwards, while his bottom teeth are still completely misaligned (think \. for a size comparison). He's having anaesthetic to burr those down, dental xrays to check for any change and the K-laser therapy while he's there. I decided not to go for a CT scan in the end (>£1000, would be useful diagnostically but might not provide more treatment options than I already have).
So, toothwise... Her suggestion, if the laser therapy doesn't help heal his jaw so he can realign it himself, was to remove the inscisors and destroy the roots. She's done it for guinea pigs, rabbits and cats; she's done a couple of hamsters too. She thinks it will be technically difficult for her to do, but Molly may be better able to do it - and I'm wondering if anyone's got a goo without front teeth (either from surgery or injury). She seems to think he'll have to eat only soft food for a few weeks, but then the gums will harden and he'll go back to eating a normal diet fairly quickly. The risk is that they don't fully destroy the roots and the teeth grow back, but she thinks that might be the next best viable option as fortnightly burring isn't sustainable in the long term (because his teeth are coming in faster and stranger each time).
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Mar 21, 2017 10:50:34 GMT
Well done on the doxycyline, it'll be interesting to see what they come up with and decide.
I've had a brief discussion with my vet in the past about incisor removal when Flossie's incisor started splitting. They seemed to think it was possible, but they also talked about a referral to the specialist vet dentist, so I wonder if that would be an option for you, I'm in N Cumbria, might even be the same place (I don't have a name but I could probably find out). To be brutally honest, the concept of the incisor removal scared the living crap out of me. Once you see the xrays you see just how massive a part of the whole skull the incisors and their roots are. When you get the xrays later, have a a good old chat with the vet again about the integrity of the jaw and skull with the roots removed. It might be fine, I might have an overactive imagination and got it wrong. The other thing is I don't really know how a degu would cope without incisors, it's difficult to guess. Maybe we can find something on the german forums.
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Mar 21, 2017 16:25:09 GMT
I'm stunned, and hardly know how to react to that potential. It is interesting to hear and learn that it has been done for guinea pigs, rabbits and cats . . . but if I were in your shoes, it would take me some few days to think it all through. I think seeing the X-Rays would be helpful, as would talking to the dental specialist that Mole refers to. That's a big decision! I guess the reality you are seeing right now is teeth that are getting progressively worse, a jaw that is hardly functional, and an end result of pain and death if it continues down this road, so clearly it is an option that must be seriously looked at if a longer and healthier life is desired.
If I may use a comparison, we had a cocker spaniel that had HUGE and really thick ear flaps. He also had much denser than average hair. These two things combined meant that his ears were continually in a state of moisture and infection. No sooner would we have his ear in good shape than another problem would be flaring. His ear canal became so inflamed and scarred that it was thicker than my ring finger, and he was in constant discomfort, and often terrible pain. The vet told us that it had gotten to the point that it would either soon end his life because the infection had become chronic and would eventually invade the brain, or they could surgically remove the whole inner ear. I had NO idea it could be done. After some thinking, we did it, and he looked completely normal until you lifted his ear and there was no hole anymore, and he was SO much healthier. He lived another four years, a much happier boy.
It sounds invasive and scary, but . . . maybe it will be just the thing that will turn everything around for him.
|
|