EMERGENCY HELP! MY DEGU HAD BABIES!

[kalraii]

I've had my degus a few years. They've been checked and rechecked during vet visits, by my friend who has degus. I am frankly horrified and devastated. I saw blood on my bandito's face and rushed him to vets. Couldn't find anything wrong. THE VET EVEN CHECKED. I come home and start cleaning the cage out and I THREW THEM IN THE BIN (they were in the box I had no idea I feel like a horrible human being!). I was so SHOCKED. I put them in the carrier with bandito (NOW EXPLAINS WHY HE PUT ON WEIGHT SO FAST IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS. I'm such an IDIOT but even the vet didn't notice today!!!!!!!). PLEASE HELP ME I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M DOING. I never wanted to breed them and I'm panicking right now!!

1. WILL SHE EAT THE BABIES??? (I will research but please for now help me and answer asap!) I did touch them - I had no choice! 
2. Do i separate her from the two boys and keep her in a separate cage for her babies??
3. Is there anything I need to know RIGHT NOW?
4. they have hair on them - they are DRY and kinda wobbling around.

!!!!!!!!

[moletteuk]

Separate her and the babies from any other adults until you can work out for sure who is female and who is male. They are usually fertile immediately after giving birth and can get pregnant again immediately so she needs to be separate from any males to prevent this.

[kalraii]

Ok shes currently in a carrier. I have multiple cages for random other reasons am so happy I have them. I still have the box (its just a big of cardboard they've filled with paper/tissue/other bits). Should I put them back in that box with all the debris or a fresh box and towel? Many thanks for fast response.

[moletteuk]

I can't tell you if she will accept the babies back for sure, does mom seem to be putting the nest back together and taking care of them? Degus do tolerate disturbance to the nest much more than say hamsters and it's rare for them to eat the babies. Did you retrieve the nest material and some general substrate and put that back in too so the smell is still familiar, this should help a little?

Try not to panic, degus are born much more developed than other small rodents, so they are more robust. How long were they separated from mom for and how warm was their location?

[moletteuk]

(Cross post.)

Use all the old stuff if it didn't get outside dirt and garbage from the dustbin on it. When you say box, was this just a nest box within a larger cage? If possible and it's baby proof, keep mum and babies in the old setup and move the boys into a spare cage so there is less disturbance for mum.

[kalraii]

she is cuddling with them in the carrier atm. the main cage is huge and one side is nearish the radiator (where the nest was funnily enough) - it's a VERY cosy box (was) and when I got back the boys were in there so the babies were warm. one of them looks smaller than the rest so am assuming its a runt. there are 5 in total. they are in the carrier with mom atm. I feel so stupid as I literally destroyed her nest (it was barely held together!). I have salvaged the parts and put the left over box in a SEPARATE cage and can only hope mom will fix it up?

[moletteuk]

OK that's good that they stayed warm, so if mum accepts them back the only problem is that they went without food for a while, but I would think a couple of hours or so shouldn't be too much of a problem.

If mum accepts the pups then she will fix up the nest again, no problem. To help her settle and feel safe and secure again, I would recommend putting the remains of the box and nest, mom and babies in the original cage and moving the boys out. Mom will feel back at home and more secure this way. Is there a reason why this would be a problem?

[moletteuk]

Here's our sexing guide to help you sex the other two adults deguworld.proboards.com/thread/13070/degus
If you discover for sure that one of them is female, then theoretically she could go back in with mum and babies and should help bring them up. This is something you can think about another day when everything else is under control. You would also need to consider that if one is female, she may also be pregnant. It is more likely that you have two females and a male because if you had two males and one female the boys would be likely to fight over the female.


The other thing to think about is good diet for the mum. Have a look at our feeding guide deguworld.proboards.com/thread/16425/degu-feeding-guide Nursing mums can benefit from extra fats and calcium, so some high calcium plants like dandelion, plantain (plantago) and alfalfa, and high calcium seeds like fennel, sesame, nigella, and some other oil seeds and extra nuts.

[kalraii]

the bars of the cage are quite wide and I was just concerned that that the babies would slip through somehow as I did a bit of reading and was surprised to find (like u said) thye are born fairly developed. the cage that she is in with her babies is actually the cage she herself lived in when i first got her. i have placed it directly next to the main cage and the boys are taking great interest. just to clarify as I was in a bit of a panic earlier and feel much better having someone knowledgeable help me through this. the vets are across the road from me - we weren't even there half an hour at most. but while i was setting up the cage for her she gave birth to ****TWO MORE**** babies!!! i feel terrible for her. what a horrible thing to go through with me faffing about blindly because of pure ignorance? i never bothered to read up about breeding and i've had them a few years (ontop of having vet visits and being checked over, was never picked up that one was female). sigh. i just hope this works out.

[moletteuk]

I don't think you need to feel too bad when the vet didn't even spot they weren't all the same sex and couldn't tell she had just had babies. These things happen. Just get her setup and safe and leave her be in case there are more.

Bar spacing should be no more than about 15mm for babies, they will be on the move and trying to escape surprisingly quickly. You might be able to weave cardboard through bars to make safer, but the second cage might be better. Just make a choice and get her setup and then leave her in peace for a while.

[kalraii]

ok shes all settled. everything seems fine. thank you SO much for being here and getting back to me so quickly i have no idea how to repay you. tomorrow is weighing them something I need to do???

[moletteuk]

You're welcome

No need to weigh them tomorrow at all, I wouldn't go in the cage at all for a couple days except to do food and water. You might want to weigh them in a week or two just for interest and as a reference. You should be able to visibly see them develop and grow as reassurance they are doing well.

[deguconvert]

Oh my goodness!! What a stressful day you and your girl have had, and thank goodness that Moletteuk was here to help!! She's great!! I think you have what you need for now, although you may need to surround the cage with the pups in it with cardboard so as to prevent them from escaping through the bars/wires. It seems clear to me that your new momma hasn't been too stessed out, or she wouldn't have been able to continue with the birth. The fact that she has delivered two more is good news in my mind.

How are you doing now? Relaxing a little more?

[kalraii]

Yes I am definitely more relaxed now thanks! I have over 40 rescue animals so never been interested in breeding - HUGE shock. I am also disappointed that the gender of said goo slipped past so many of us. I've never bothered to check again for the longest time since their last vet visit (different vet to the one from yday). But I woke up at 4am and suddenly realized something.... there was a reason the "baby boys" never had babies all that time until my elder boy was put with them.... that it was amazing how smooth the merge was. I checked and cross referenced multiple times and yes Pinata is also a girl. I feel so stupid. Of course I have checked in the past but I felt safe knowing that professionals more experienced than me had verified as such. Things could be MUCH worse than having potentially 12 cute baby degus running riot right? lol. So... Pinata is PROBABLY pregnant right? She has gotten slightly chubbier recently and in the last week has started to develop cataracts (only faintly). I am wondering - I know pregnant women can become diabetic for the duration of the pregnancy... is the timing of her cataracts also an indicator or just pure diet? I feel I need to be worried if she's pregnant AND possibly diabetic. My other degus seem just fine. They are fed a complete degu pellets (with the occasional guinea pig muesli mixed in once or twice a week for a bit of variety) and their main treats that I switch between are thin slices of carrot/broccoli/apple/monkey nuts/a few sunflower seeds/oats.

I am definitely calmer today thanks again SO SO MUCH. It doesn't help that I've been nursing a sick jackdaw through the evenings also. I have probably washed my hands a million times in 48 hours lol!!

[deguconvert]

Cataracts are not solely the result of diabetes, there are other dietary issues that can bring them out, as well genetics. There are excellent threads and information in our Diet and Nutrition board. Here are some links you can look at.
deguworld.proboards.com/thread/16425/degu-feeding-guide
deguworld.proboards.com/thread/16425/degu-feeding-guide
deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15795/links-interesting-food-threads

There are a ton more threads and information guides in there, and I know I am only guessing at what you might be wanting to read.

Very likely your other girl is pregnant as well. You need to know that degus are most fertile immediately after giving birth and for several days following, so you may wish to separate the other girl from your male now even. You can put her in with the girl that has given birth already, and she will be a help to the new mom. If she is pregnant, both moms will be helping each other. Also, due the high quality and constant availability of food to pet degus, the pups are sexually viable and able to reproduce at a very young age . . . as early as six weeks for females and 8 weeks for the males. So you need to separate your pups from their Moms between 7-8 weeks of age, and have them in same sex groups.

[kalraii]

OK thanks - I have saved the tab and will be making notes tonight! She is also booked for the vet. I have a huge aventura cage - I think the bar spacing is fine now I see it in the day - just didn't want to risk ANYTHING last night. I will split it so the girls and their babies are one side and my boy the other.

Question: I have read in a few places that once the female degu has given birth she is immediately fertile - hence getting daddy out asap like you advised. HOWEVER in this forum and other places it has been advised and encouraged to allow the daddy degu back in with his family after a few days separation to help raise the pups. I can't find anywhere that directly says that the female can/cannot get pregnant until the pups are weaned? (So about 6-8 weeks shes not fertile?). Basically, once my remaining female probably gives birth, I'll wait a few days then put them all together until the pups are near to being weaned and separated into male/female groups?? Once they are separated to keep daddy from getting lonely is it a good idea to keep two boy pups IN WITH HIM so they may continue to grow and bond? I ask because I am not keen on risking my boy getting neutered and obviously he can't stay with the girls. I don't want him back to being depressed and bald.


I am considering even just keeping all the pups if it's this one litter and dedicating a whole room to my degus! But if it's two litters.... then I have some people in mind that I can trust...

[moletteuk]

Definiteley take a moment to breathe and enjoy the pups, you did well to figure it out in time and save the pups

The most common type of cataracts are osmotic and are a response to higher glucose levels in the blood, without them actually being diabetic, probably combined with genetic predisposition. The best thing to do is to elimanate grains from the diet so they aren't getting glucose spikes and feed a plant based diet. Start with the feeding guide linked above and you will see this is more easily achievable than you might think and great for their health generally. I don't know too much about diabetes and pregnancy, but do keep an eye on her water intake and output and look out for energy spikes and lethargy and changes in appetite as any signs of diabetes, but contrary to popular belief we see diabetic degus very rarely.

It's a great idea to keep a pair of boys for company for dad, this is the best option, he should know they are his and readily accept them, although do take the meeting cautiously. Also just be a bit cautious about putting Pinata back in with mum1 (did I imagine she is called Bandito/a?), it should all go fine as deguconvert says and is worth doing, but with the upset and location change it's worth being extra careful.

Also, be aware that we normally recommend that a full Aventura will house 2 or 3 degus or maybe 4 at a push if you extend the half shelves into full ones, so you may need to expand your housing at some point. The Aventura bar spacing should be fine unless there are any loose bits around doors or anything like that.

[moletteuk]

(Cross post with edit)

NO, don't put dad back in with the mums at all, it's too big a risk, this is an oversight on the forum with some old sticky threads that urgently need updating! Theoretically a mum will be immediately fertile after the birth and then would resume the 21 day cycle (if it is breeding season and conditions are good), but experience shows that the length of the initial fertility and the 21 day cycle are not an exact thing, so it's not worth the risk.

So dad will be on his own for 6 weeks, then you separate the pups into boys and girls and put the boys with dad.

[kalraii]

Cool - yup I am learning pretty rapidly the finer art of degu keeping that's for sure! So just to confirm - once the remaining female gives birth - I'll wait a few days - Do I or do I NOT put daddy back in to help with raising them? And when separation time comes I'll keep 2 baby boys in with him. 

And yup - space luckily isn't an issue as I have two dedicated animal rooms. I'm thinking of converting one full time into a degu room. They are pretty d**n adorable. Pinata and Bandit(a) are already together as Pinata seemed very stressed and both of them were at the bars for each others. They are sisters and I was concerned the stress of being apart might harm her own pregnancy.

[kalraii]

Right gotcha! Daddy stays separate! He'll be split from them but in close proximity!

SO many questions. I will move mum and pinata back to their original cage tomorrow (gonna give it a thorough clean). I'm assume that Pinata will need her own nest to give birth in?