information you expect from a degu feeding guide

[fred]

Hi all,

Nightwishraven's octodondegus.weebly.com/ site is rapidly morphing from a cage building guide into a general degu information site. We have now begun work on a diet / feeding page to add to it. Since there is currently nothing in English that one could in good conscience recommend to a degu owner, we feel it iis mportant to make this a comprehensive guide. We therefore ask you to tell us what information you would like to find on it. All questions and comments are welcome (but will not be addressed straight away in this thread).

[malteser60]

• Amount of food to give each day?
  
• Whether to feed a set amount or fill up the bowl?
  
• The different ways sugar can be called e.g. mollasses
  
• Of course a list of safe plants and veg (I have put one together if you need which is fairly comprehensive).
  
• Best types of hard feed? Not sure about this one. I'd rather point people towards the natural nutrition but people just starting out with degus might benefit more from a bought feed initially until they get to grips with looking after degus and do all the reading. What do you think?
  
• Of course a pointer towards the natural nutrition threads here on the forum.
  

Hmm, I'll try and think of some more.

[davx]

Diet in wild!

Fred some months ago I worked out a draft for a big publisher house. It covers most of the important feeding topics. All in all some 10 A4 pages.
If you are interested in, I can send you a copy.

[19Uhr30]

Though the information about diet in the wild is interesting I do not think it should be a priority. Simply because the concept of the website seems to be providing practical information on how to keep degus properly. That's why the website has to provide the information every new keeper of degus is looking for.
I guess it could be useful to provide kind of a two-level-approach. On the one side you can provide a very basic info about acceptable food you can buy at stores. On the other side you can have a list of plants, herbs and vegetables, tips on how to dry and mix your own food and the like.
I simply think that a beginner will be easily overwhelmed by the natural diet stuff. You will reach more people if everybody can begin with a kind of mediocre food and then gradually replace it with a more natural diet.

[amie]

Dec 11, 2011 23:58:40 GMT 19Uhr30 said:

Though the information about diet in the wild is interesting I do not think it should be a priority. Simply because the concept of the website seems to be providing practical information on how to keep degus properly. That's why the website has to provide the information every new keeper of degus is looking for.
I guess it could be useful to provide kind of a two-level-approach. On the one side you can provide a very basic info about acceptable food you can buy at stores. On the other side you can have a list of plants, herbs and vegetables, tips on how to dry and mix your own food and the like.
I simply think that a beginner will be easily overwhelmed by the natural diet stuff. You will reach more people if everybody can begin with a kind of mediocre food and then gradually replace it with a more natural diet.

Exactly my thinking on this!

Having beginner and advanced degu diet sections is probably the way to reach everyone. Perhaps implying in the beginner section that this diet is a minimum requirement to sustain a degu, but there are more nourishing diets that are simple to put togother....then that leads to the comprehensive list of degu diet goodies! People can then read on about the more complex stuff if they want to, if they don't, they can just read the simple stuff. I think the simple stuff has to be available with the more advanced stuff, because let's face it... not everyone's gonna' read that and ya can't force 'em! but what you can do is make sure that the simple information they are getting is correct, rather than some of the other stuff I read on the internet - informatiion I wouldn't want the degu novice owner reading!

[NightwishRaven999]

Examples of mixes one can easily create and good illustrations to serve as visualization tools !

I think what has been previously mentioned to be important.
Some refferences to what degus mostly consume in the wild would be helpful...especially since many reading your article would not be used to offering seeds, plants and etc.
As you know most have been instructed to keep stricly to base pellet foods and only use natural feeds in small amount.
I think pointing out to degu diet in the wild, to be helpful in introducing DIY mixes.
But as mentioned by Benjamin and Amie, a slow and simple introduction might be in order...leading to a more complex and interesting guide for those who are ready.

I think it is vital though to keep in mind that the goal of this guide that Fred will create...will be to 1) encourage a healthy diet for degus and 2) to help our readers leave behind the myths that websites have been promoting about proper degu diet.

[Karma]

Good treats to use and amount - are their certain types of fresh items (like spinach, grass or leaves of some sort) that can be fed more often?

Should there be a difference with baby versus adult food? (fat level, amount of different treats, amount)

maybe a list of websites for different countries on how to obtain items like fresh herbs.

Those are the areas where I'm still a little unsure in and would love to see some more infor and reasearch.

[aya0aya]

I agree with Davx, I'd like to read a lot more about their diet in wild. And maybe some suggestions how to reach the similar diet if we don't have exactly the same plants around us.

And since winter is here maybe how to get our degus fresh food at that time too. As I mention before, I have dandelion seeds picked through the year and I grow it in the room now. I also got oat seeds and I'll try to grow that too. Maybe some other ideas how to get them fresh food and which one.

Karma yes, I'd like to know what's about spinach and other greens with oxalic acid.

[Tiiyn]

Dec 12, 2011 2:02:30 GMT amie said:

Dec 11, 2011 23:58:40 GMT 19Uhr30 said:

Though the information about diet in the wild is interesting I do not think it should be a priority. Simply because the concept of the website seems to be providing practical information on how to keep degus properly. That's why the website has to provide the information every new keeper of degus is looking for.
I guess it could be useful to provide kind of a two-level-approach. On the one side you can provide a very basic info about acceptable food you can buy at stores. On the other side you can have a list of plants, herbs and vegetables, tips on how to dry and mix your own food and the like.
I simply think that a beginner will be easily overwhelmed by the natural diet stuff. You will reach more people if everybody can begin with a kind of mediocre food and then gradually replace it with a more natural diet.

Exactly my thinking on this!

Having beginner and advanced degu diet sections is probably the way to reach everyone. Perhaps implying in the beginner section that this diet is a minimum requirement to sustain a degu, but there are more nourishing diets that are simple to put togother....then that leads to the comprehensive list of degu diet goodies! People can then read on about the more complex stuff if they want to, if they don't, they can just read the simple stuff. I think the simple stuff has to be available with the more advanced stuff, because let's face it... not everyone's gonna' read that and ya can't force 'em! but what you can do is make sure that the simple information they are getting is correct, rather than some of the other stuff I read on the internet - informatiion I wouldn't want the degu novice owner reading!

I'd like to agree with everyone who's said things to the effect of the above. I personally do intent to investigate the natural nutrition stuff we have going on, and all the threads about it and such, however... for someone just starting out it is daunting. So, it would be good to make sure there is something to guide those who are put off by it all. (Granted, we may want to encourage natural feeding, but, I think we should offer a 'backup' suggestion (or even just one for new owners to work with to start, and then develop on from)).

Details about what treats should only be fed once a month / once a week / once a day / as-and-when-you-like would also be great, I for one, would find that very useful.

[deguconvert]

I think you have a good point, Tiiyn. I think that if we can keep somewhat up to date on the commercial foods available for degus, then we can at least advise according to "Bad, Better, Best." These can then be used by new owners, owners that have limited funds to purchase dried product from online sites, or limited movement/options for collecting their own forage for the degus, owners that like the 50% natural nutrition, etc.

It's great that we have a passion for natural nutrition, and it is certainly best for our degus, so lets remember to invite people to check it out, letting them catch our enthusiasm.

[malteser60]

That's what I was trying to get at in my first post. There is definitely needed a beginners/basic section in the food guide. One of the most common questions asked by beginners is how much do I feed my degus? what is the best food to buy? Also, another important bit, what type of hay to buy? What is the difference between hay and dried grass? What is the difference between meadow hay and timothy hay? on hay expert they also have oat hay, what is that? is there a difference between normal dried grass and readigrass? how much water should my degu be drinking?

I can go on forever with these questions. So a guide to the best commercial available feed, however we will link it to trying out a more natural nutrition, and to tell people that dried plants like dandelion are not a 'treat' but should be part of their main diet. That way beginners to degus can give their degus a good diet (e.g. JR Farm feed) whilst they learn about their new pets, and then they can start to go towards a more natural nutrition.

[fred]

Thanks for all your suggestions so far; I am reading them carefully, and they will all be considered! I am not responding because I want to resist the temptation to try steering the discussion into a particular direction

Please keep them coming!

One “problem” we have is that the readership of Jordan's site / membership of the forum has such a wide geographic distribution. There are major differences in both the vegetation and the availability of processed feeds which make a general guide rather difficult in some areas.


davx
Yes, please email this draft, David. I am sure it will be very helpful.

[davx]

In my opinion knowledge about diet in the wild is the base for our understanding. In the german deguforum, there were so many myths, based on a poor or missing understanding of the life and diet of wild degus. My approach to investigate and bringing light in this topic was the key for much improvements. Another important part was to try out and observe the degus well, based on a solid basal knowledge, that helped me to interpret right, what I saw and to give me information about the possible danger of what I tried out. Thus I can only repeat myself, knowledge is a crucial impact factor and shouldn't be neglected.

For me it is a question of the aim, you intend to reach:
Is it doubtful knowledge hard to prove and to rethink, as you lay into degutopia? Or isn't it more important, that there is a base, everyone can use for own thinking?
Of course I agree, that ideas for practical feeding have to be included as well as a discussion how to interpret the given facts, but facts and discussion have to be separated for better transparency and improvement in available information.

By the way, my text, I wrote, is far away from being exhaustive about diet in wild etc. The main focus is a broad introduction in the topic and offering practical knowledge and advice.

[xcasper17x]

Ok this isn't all about them feeding but you could put some information in about the following things:

FOOD:

• What do they like to eat?
  
• What do they eat in the wild?
  
• How long can they live without food?
  
• How long can they live without water?
  
• Do they only drink water?
  
• Can they learn different ways to eat? E.G Go from eating from a bowl to scavenging their own food?
  

SLEEPING:

• How long do they sleep for?
  
• How/Where do they like to sleep?
  
• What kind of bedding they need for a comfy nights sleep?
  
• Do they keep their bedding area clean?
  
• Do they always sleep in 1 spot/place?
  
• How do they sleep in the wild?
  
• Do they have hibernated sleep?
  
• Have they ever been know to urinate or excrete in their sleep?
  

LIVING

• What kind of things do they like to do?
  
• What things apart from toys can entertain them?
  
• Is there other things except wood shavings and hay that you can put in their cage?
  
• Why do they get bored so easily?
  
• Why can't they have plastic toys?
  
• Why do they chew things?
  
• How do they keep their teeth short?
  
• Is there any paint that can be used that is harmless to them? E.G For painting wooden toys, cages ..etc
  
• What kind of things can kill them?
  
• What do they get hunted by in the wild?
  
• What do they use as beds in the wild?
  
• How did they become pets?
  
• Why are they hard to spot in the wild?
  

Most of them are obvious questions but for new comers to Degu's i think they are really suitable and would make the site alot more fact filling and give new owners a more better idea of what they have bought or are going to buy.

Also you should make the menu bar not have such long categories because i can see you have to use the drop down menu at the end because the writing is too long on the main bar. You should think of changing that. Also you may want to add a forum or "Guestbook" to the site so you can get feedback and answer questions that people may have. You may also want to put a donate page and i know this sound absolutely un-needed which it is but you could make money from the site as some people may want to donate to you for helping them out. You never know what the site may bring. I made a website about dogs and how to train them ..etc i put a donate page once i started getting "customers" and i made nearly £1000 in 2 months so you should keep that in mind. 1 Main thing with the donate page is not to ask people to donate just let them do it as they please because if you ask then people may think " Cheeky lil s**t" and not donate lol. Also you may want to add a photo gallery and a video gallery so you can show people how to make the cages and how to tame the Degu's with videos just incase some people cant read or cant be bothered to read. I say that because on that site there is quite alot of text and not really much "fun/entertainment" and yes i know the site is only about Degu's and its just a (as i like to call) Project site but some people may come to your site look at all the text and say "F*ck that i am not reading all that" So you may want to keep that in mind too.

I don't mean to "but-in" but just wanted to give you some friendly tips/advise. Hope you are not offended by this

If you need any more help with questions and stuff to do with the site let me know ... Website creation is the main thing i do.




19Uhr30 The wild diet could be pretty useful i dont mean to contradict what you are saying but (THIS IS A 1 in 10000000 CHANCE) say your degu goes missing out of your door one day and scents his way where he goes so her can get back to you ... you would want to know what he has been eating right? Also maybe if people what to feed their Degu's the things they eat in the wild so they can give them that full "Wild" experience then the diet in the wild part would be good .... Everything in the wild that i mention in this post should be put on the site because i would LOVE to give my degu's the full "Wild" Experience .... even that much that im turning a full BIG bedroom that we dont use into a room that the degu can stay in without a cage so i would love to know everything about the degu's in the wild.

[abirose]

I love Jordans site, I think it is good for its practicality and its simplicity, but it depends on who its targeted for I would agree with having a beginners and an advanced section for feeding. I imagine that although the 50% natural nutrition is really great (I am using it myself) it may look a little intimidating to newbies?

I would agree with Karma about treats, I think there is a lot of conflicting advice so maybe a treat timetable? I think it might be important to address the issue of using guinea pig food, I read somewhere that its good as it includes more variety but it was the worse thing for my degu's, bad selective eating!

It would be good to have some links to shops which sell some of the products people use in natural nutrition.

@ xcasper I would perhaps be a little reluctant to put about how long degu's can go without food and water, just in case it gets read by the wrong person who thinks its ok to let them go without. Other then that there's some good suggestions.

[NightwishRaven999]

Dec 13, 2011 23:30:27 GMT abirose said:

I love Jordans site, I think it is good for its practicality and its simplicity, but it depends on who its targeted for I would agree with having a beginners and an advanced section for feeding. I imagine that although the 50% natural nutrition is really great (I am using it myself) it may look a little intimidating to newbies?

Abirose mentions something very important here...about who will be the target of this article.
I have been discussing this with Fred, but I think it is also good to mention here. Forum members have everything necessary to embark on the 50% natural diet project. Of course, there is a lot of reading for new members...but this is innevitable.
This project is being put together mostly for owners who are not part of this forum.

We have so much good information and insight in the Diet Section of the forum. We have members from various parts of the globe who are able to answer diet related questions when they come up...this is the place to be !

With all the information the forum has accumulated, we feel it is time to spread this to degu owners outside our community.
Too little information deals on the subject of proper diet and we feel there are no english websites that currently encourage owners to use fresh, natural or quality goods to enhance the degu diet.

One of the main goals of this article will be to promote the natural feeding method and promote DIY feeding mixes.

There is the matter of introducing this in a balanced and simple way, making it easy for beginners to grasp and understand.
But as we have witnessed this past year, there is no better way to promote change, than by encouraging new owners towards an early start in improving diet and housing.

We have had many examples of this...two of them come to mind right now, our dear members Pinkhairedelf and Tiiyn.
Both members joined our community a few weeks ago and both have already fully embarked into the DIY world and built wonderful homes for their degus.

We can do much good by introducing these diet related ideas to new and less experienced owners.

I have full confidence that Fred will come up with a clear, well thought out plan of creating this content rich guide.


Keep the ideas coming everyone !

[xcasper17x]

Dec 13, 2011 23:30:27 GMT abirose said:

@ xcasper I would perhaps be a little reluctant to put about how long degu's can go without food and water, just in case it gets read by the wrong person who thinks its ok to let them go without. Other then that there's some good suggestions.

Yes i understand what you are saying but just incase you dont have money for food at the time and need to wait until you get paid (For now lets just say 2 days) then im sure people would love to know that


Also NWR i love your site but it needs improving for your "Customers" you need to make it "Eye candy" not "Eye Hell" Lol Love your work so far though

[Maravilla]

Dec 14, 2011 6:45:40 GMT xcasper17x said:

Yes i understand what you are saying but just incase you dont have money for food at the time and need to wait until you get paid (For now lets just say 2 days) then im sure people would love to know that

In any case, there should always be a lot of hay in the cage. My goos don't eat much of it, but nevertheless have a huge amount. So, in any case, they would have something to eat. Besides, degus have to eat regularly. Another way of avoiding the problem is getting them used to fresh and dried green from outside. This is not only cheap food... it doesn't cost anything at all. At present, the only food I have to buy is hay and all kind of seeds.

[19Uhr30]

Okay... I guess I have to correct my point slightly. Because I absolutely agree with DavX on one thing. Providing a base of information to educate people on healthy degu diet is better then just establishing some dogma to adhere to. And the natural diet in the wild has to be included. Simply because degus have evolved to eat that kind of food. Of course we will have to make huge changes to it when adapting that information for our pets. Nobody has the ability to access the chilean flora for his pets. We have to use what we have here. And that should not be a problem. The single species of plants are not that important as right mix of herbs, seeds and so on.
But we should also know that there are those people who think that feeding their pets with cheerios is fine. You cannot expect that they will make their own natural diet plans from information about the wild diet. Their degus could benefit a lot from simple first steps.
If I may use me as an example: When I was new to degu keeping I was told early on that "JR Farm Degu Special" would be a good start for my degus. But I should consider adding additional herbs, leaves and flowers to it. I think that was a good way to give a beginner an easy way to slowly gain knowledge about edible food components until I felt comfortable enough to replace the food slowly with my own mix. (Which is not even a definite mix but varies a bit from day to day and order to order...)
It is not important whether a guide begins with simple instructions for absolute beginners and then leads to more information about a more natural diet or it begins with an introduction and then gives the beginner an annotation in the style of "You should really consider a more natural diet for your pets in the future. But if you think that is not possible for you at the moment, here are a few suggestions on food options we consider to be okay for degus." Those basics are very important as well, because there are people who feed their degus with cereals and drops and crappy stuff. Those degus do not benefit if we tell their keepers to switch to a natural diet. It's just a step too far for them.
I guess I would like to give as much information, as possible but not all of it at once. That lead to the idea of a two-level-approach in my first posting. People have to learn gradually. That's true for everybody because we are all still learning... (For the record: I am not at all an expert in degu food field, I primarily go with offering a large variety of safe plants to avoid malnutrition and add some vegetables, seeds and grain for the calories.)

[aya0aya]

You can add it on the information page or just someone answer me here. What's about eggs? I was sure eggs are no-no, but now I'm checking out Jr Farm snacks suitable for degus and they have eggs in.