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Post by fred on Oct 31, 2011 13:51:23 GMT
It has been a while since stage 2, far longer than planned, but there have been a number of developments and discussions in the background which should lead to an improved version. It has become apparent that using running area (CARA) as the criterion, it is possible to provide a simple chart/table rather than a calculator. This may be preferable because it is so easy to see at first glance how changes in CARA affect the suitability for which number of degus. This is an example (the values may change, see next post). How would this table be used? There will be very simple instructions how to calculate the CARA for your cage. Using the xtrail as an example, there are two full levels and two half levels, making up a CARA of 17,000 sq.cm. The table will immediately tell you that the cage is suitable for three degus. It will also show that you should have 2,000 sq.cm more for four degus (which could be achieved by converting a half level to a full one). All very straightforward (we think). Do you as potential users agree? One but has come up in in our discussions so far. There will be minimum values for length, height and floor area. If these are undercut, the calculator would tell the user “no way”. The table can't do the same and can't distinguish how the CARA was achieved. It therefore relies more on the careful reading and goodwill of the user. My personal view is that the conscientious degu owner will apply both (and others can't be bothered anyway). Do you agree, or am I being overly optimistic? All opinions on table versus calculator are welcome!
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Post by nuttz on Oct 31, 2011 14:26:05 GMT
sounds fantastic fred, but for me, there is lots of humming and arrrring.. i wouldnt know how to work out square centimeters??? i admit not being very good at maths but im sure if someone could help i could work it out, it just might take me longer than most
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Post by nuttz on Oct 31, 2011 14:29:45 GMT
the cage that we are going to be starting on in the next few weeks will have 5 full levels, all 50 x 100 cms.. what would be the square coverage? it will be 192 cms in height. im hoping this will be ok for 4 degus as its the best i can do?!
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Post by fred on Oct 31, 2011 14:39:04 GMT
nuttz I promise the instructions will be very clear and easy to follow, and you will be able to do it in cm or inches. The cage you mention would have 25,000 sq.cm / 3,800 sq.inches, so would definitely be ok for 4 degus.
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Post by nuttz on Oct 31, 2011 14:56:03 GMT
thank you very much for that fred, i was dreading telling hubby that the cage would be to small seeing as he has already bought half the materials, we are just waiting for more money so that he can get started on it, wood over here it way over priced!!!
i look forward to seeing your calculator when its finished fred, im sure it will prove very helpful indeed!!!
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 31, 2011 15:03:31 GMT
I second that, Nuttz! Well done, Fred!!!
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Post by fred on Oct 31, 2011 15:37:47 GMT
This one is rather complex. Please bear with me, it's the last step towards the calculator or table, which should reflect the view of the forum and not just mine. We had previously decided to have three categories of cages, similar to the calculator at ldka.de, along the lines basic – good – excellent. Now davx has made the argument for only two categories, and had me convinced in no time. We now suggest that the upper category “excellent” should go. To really deserve this predicate, a cage should be so large that it simply is not a realistic option for most of us. Remain would the “minimum” category with values that should not be undercut, and a second category with higher requirements. This could be called “compromise” (between what is absolutely necessary and what would be ideal but in most cases not possible) or “the forum recommends”. This tables contains my suggestions how much the values should be increased in the higher category, but this is of course up for discussion. For comparison, values obtained with the ocotodons.ch, ldka.de, and degutopia calculators are included. When we discussed this earlier, I suggested that CARA should be increased by 20% for each degu above two. I have reviewed this and have realised that this number is far too low. By contrast, the requirements for additional degus suggested by the ldka.de calculator seem unnecessarily high. The CARA values which I suggest in the table seem reasonable to me. What do you think? I am particularly keen to hear from owners with four and more degus in a cage.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2011 16:02:11 GMT
Really nice work, Fred! I think the table is great. It is easy to use and it doesn't take much longer than if I were to enter the measurements in a calculator. I simply multiplied the width by the depth to find the square area of each of my levels. The one I have now is a sad 12.000 sq.cm, while the cage I'm going to build will have 20.000 sq.cm, with four levels
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Post by Maravilla on Oct 31, 2011 16:55:48 GMT
Without having read everything (no time at the moment) just the question why there is this minimum number of degus? I mean, the minimum is always 2 of them... shouldn't it be the maximum?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2011 17:57:36 GMT
I think it means the minimum size for that number of degus. Like 17000 sq.cm. is the minimum for 3 degus, but recommended for 2. I could be wrong though
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Post by fred on Oct 31, 2011 20:21:16 GMT
Maravilla and stromsong The numbers are the maximum numbers of degus that can be kept in in the “minimum” and “recommended” category, respectively. I better replace the term minimum to avoid any confusion. DC has agreed to help with the final text, always better to have a native a native speaker on board
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Post by davx on Oct 31, 2011 21:59:34 GMT
No it is clear.
But I have to mention, that there is another version of my cage calculator with a more strict formula.
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Post by fred on Oct 31, 2011 22:36:34 GMT
Sorry I should have mentioned that davx's calculator (version 2.0 beta) and the one degutopia are based on volume, and that I have translated this into CARA by assuming a height of 33 cm for all levels.
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Post by davx on Oct 31, 2011 23:01:50 GMT
BTW. the formula can be manipulated with an additional parameter. I implemented this for testing purposes.
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Post by davx on Oct 31, 2011 23:12:16 GMT
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 1, 2011 20:26:08 GMT
I think the table is a great idea Would it be a lot of extra work to make the calculator available aswell, or do you think it might cause confusion? It might be useful for some people if the CARA of some popular cages were given, to help people visualise what the numbers mean. Or perhaps some of us with homemade cages could post some pics with say a metre ruler in the pic and state the CARA of the cage, so people get a feel for the size of homemade cages. We could also have a thread where people could ask for help doing the calculations. Just some ideas anyway.
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Post by fred on Nov 2, 2011 20:19:21 GMT
It is possible to also provide a calculator at a later time. For now, I'd rather see how the table works out. There will be the schematic representation of a cage and the step by step calculation of CARA for this cage. I really hope that this will be clear and easy enough. If that proves to be overly optimistic, a “help with CARA calculations” thread would be a very good idea.
I like the idea to give CARA for some of our homemade cages very much. How best to do this? Perhaps members could just edit their posts in the cage galleries to add this information?
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Post by Bexi87 on Nov 5, 2011 18:15:09 GMT
I'm going to sound really thick but how do you work out the sq.cm? Maths have never been my strong point and since leaving school most of it has left my brain
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Post by Maravilla on Nov 5, 2011 18:54:49 GMT
length (cm) x width (cm) = area (square cm). A cage of 100 cm x 50 cm = 5000 square cm (floor area).
Then you have to add the area of the other levels. The question is if the calculator includes all levels no matter how big they are, or only levels of a certain area.
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Post by Bexi87 on Nov 5, 2011 18:59:36 GMT
Fantastic, thanks
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