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Post by Ady on Nov 6, 2011 12:09:51 GMT
That's great. I really like the table, it seems pretty clear, especially to figure out how much more running space I need to add if I want one more degu in my cage (as u mentioned).
But I would think that calculator would be more friendly for people who are buying first degus and first cage.
Oh and I worked out sq.cm of my cage. The table recommends 4 degus for my cage which seems just right. IMO I think that extra 20% for other degu is ok (as long there's hideaways etc. in the cage)
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Post by fred on Nov 6, 2011 12:25:55 GMT
The question is if the calculator includes all levels no matter how big they are, or only levels of a certain area. The suggestion is that levels count only as CARA if they are at least 50% of the floor area; there needs to be some cutoff below which they are just ledges. However, there should be some flexibility how this is defined; I have tried to explain this using the example of dingle87's cage: deguworld.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Cage&thread=9323&page=1 Does this way of thinking make sense? All comments welcome.
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Post by fred on Nov 6, 2011 12:34:51 GMT
Ady and molette – Regarding the question of also having a calculator, there are two possibilities. 1) only a calculator to calculate CARA and then the table to look up how many degus one can keep with that CARA. This is easy to do and should make it more convenient for users. 2) a calculator which spits out the results with all kind of explanations. This is much more complex because it also has to take into account recommendations for minimum length, floor area, height. I am not sure whether this is really that helpful. It could be easier explained in the text accompanying the table. What do you think?
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Post by davx on Nov 6, 2011 12:48:14 GMT
What's about a calculator highlighting the given value in the table?
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Post by fred on Nov 6, 2011 12:51:50 GMT
Yes, that is a great idea, thanks David. As long as the majority here doesn't think there should be a full version, that's probably the way to go.
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Post by nuttz on Nov 6, 2011 12:56:26 GMT
well for me, i would need a simple version, im not very good at maths etc so i would probably reject the idea of a full version, just so that i dont get too confused
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Post by Ady on Nov 6, 2011 13:27:56 GMT
The question is if the calculator includes all levels no matter how big they are, or only levels of a certain area. The suggestion is that levels count only as CARA if they are at least 50% of the floor area; there needs to be some cutoff below which they are just ledges. However, there should be some flexibility how this is defined; I have tried to explain this using the example of dingle87's cage: deguworld.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Cage&thread=9323&page=1 Does this way of thinking make sense? All comments welcome. Have u meant 50% of min. recommended floor area or 50% of floor area of given cage? What about, taken that min. floor area is 100cmx50cm, than anything bigger than 2500sq.cm (50% of min floor area) would be consider as level? It's just suggestion.
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Post by fred on Nov 6, 2011 13:50:01 GMT
To be honest, I had 50% of the floor area of given cage in mind (but wasn't really happy with it). 50% of the minimum floor area is a much better suggestion, thanks Ady One idea behind the cage calculator is to also positively influence cage design. One would need a lot of 2,500sq.cm levels to reach the required CARA, so that's something very unlikely to happen.
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Post by davx on Nov 6, 2011 18:44:05 GMT
Fred, I knew that you would like my idea...
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 8, 2011 17:51:39 GMT
I think the idea of the calculator highlighting the right place on the table is great :-)
What about just having a set area size that a level has to be for it to count towards CARA, like 2000sqcm (or whatever size you want)?
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Nov 9, 2011 6:00:19 GMT
What about just having a set area size that a level has to be for it to count towards CARA, like 2000sqcm (or whatever size you want)? This is a good idea. It would also encourage owners to include larger levels in the cage and not rely on a multitude of smaller levels and ledges in the cage. One of the things I have been worried about is that new owners might be able to achieve the recommended 15,000 sq centimeters using a very tall/narrow cage and filling it with various levels. Restriciting calculated space like molette suggests is a good idea. I honestly think the table/chart is a "stand-alone" tool. It is very clear and simple...calculating (X by X) of all large/medium levels in the cage and combining the numbers to reach the total sq cm area is simple and quick. We will still need to continue backing the minimum 100x50x100 cm size cage. But the 15,000 sq cm CARA will really push owners and cage builders to add large levels to the cage and use cage height to the full. This is something I have already discussed with Fred, but I believe it is safe to say this CARA chart/or calculator will really stand out from all other caging tools. Instead of using volume and unused space to calculate and recommend a number of degus that can be kept, CARA will really help improve the housing standards of degus. I have seen many outside the forum thinking that since their cage is 100x50x100 or over, large levels are not important. Since all calculators so far are based on cage volume, many tend to minimize the importance of floor space. I believe the idea mentioned above is especially important, since many seem to replace large continuous levels with many smallers ones. The degus need the 1m lenght mark to actually sprint... CARA gets my full backing and I look forward to promoting it and talking to others about it once Fred gets this officially published. In the cage building article and topics we often speak about volume but from now on, we will focus on actual floor space and surface area. We have seen a huge improvement of caging standards here over the past two years. All the cages are bigger ! Now we need to work with these to make them better and more roomy on the inside.
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Post by fred on Nov 9, 2011 11:40:33 GMT
Thank you for your comments Jordan.
I will in the first instance provide the table/chart with clear instructions how to calculate CARA. The advantage of this is that it can be put here on the forum. This should be accompanied, as suggested by molette, by a help and feedback thread. In two or three months time, I can set up a calculator which highlights the given value in the table a suggested by David. Any feedback from early users of the table can be addressed in this version.
Regarding a minimum level (as opposed to ledges) size, I would like to go with Ady's suggestion of 50% of the minimum floor area, i.e. 2,500sq.cm. It seems unlikely that many owners would have cages with only half levels, because it would need twice as many to achieve the necessary CARA, which seems rather impractical.
I would like to include in the description a sentence about the maximum height of a level. Any possibility for a degu to fall over more than level MUST be avoided. This, together with the required CARA values, will automatically promote large, and where possible full levels.
Personally I disagree with the minimum height requirement of 100cm suggested here and also on deguforum.de. This is of course absolutely right when the cage has only the minimum floor area of 0.5sq.m. In this case, it needs three levels (including floor) and one shouldn't have less than then 90-100cm for this. However, if the floor area is much larger, what is wrong with a two level cage with the required CARA? I wouldn't have any problem with a cage of 4m x 0.7m and a height of only 50cm. IMO it's just impractical for most. What do others think?
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Post by fred on Nov 9, 2011 13:09:06 GMT
This is a question which still bothers me a lot. How much CARA needs to be added for additional degus?? When we discussed this earlier, I suggested that CARA should be increased by 20% for each degu above two. I have reviewed this and have realised that this number is far too low. By contrast, the requirements for additional degus suggested by the ldka.de calculator seem unnecessarily high. The CARA values which I suggest in the table seem reasonable to me. What do you think? I am particularly keen to hear from owners with four and more degus in a cage. I believe this is best answered from experience and therefore would really appreciate to hear from owners of groups of four, five or six degus (you know who you are ), and in particular those whose groups have increased in size within the same cage, or who have groups of different sizes in comparable cages.
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Nov 10, 2011 2:18:33 GMT
Regarding a minimum level (as opposed to ledges) size, I would like to go with Ady's suggestion of 50% of the minimum floor area, i.e. 2,500sq.cm. It seems unlikely that many owners would have cages with only half levels, because it would need twice as many to achieve the necessary CARA, which seems rather impractical. Personally I disagree with the minimum height requirement of 100cm suggested here and also on deguforum.de. This is of course absolutely right when the cage has only the minimum floor area of 0.5sq.m. In this case, it needs three levels (including floor) and one shouldn't have less than then 90-100cm for this. However, if the floor area is much larger, what is wrong with a two level cage with the required CARA? I wouldn't have any problem with a cage of 4m x 0.7m and a height of only 50cm. IMO it's just impractical for most. What do others think? Fred, 2,500 sq cm is even better ! It would atleast give the degus another continuous 100x25 cm or a 50x50 as opposed to 2,000 sq cm. Like you mention, the minimum 100 cm height is necessary in cages where the base is approx, 100x50 cm. But as you point out the same CARA can be achieved in a cage with a larger base and fewer level (less height). I have no problem imagining how a cage measuring 150x60x75 could have more running space than a 100x50x100 size cage. As Fred mentions, the cage height recommendation is vital for those of us who have limited floor space to offer. I have seen wonderful setups, where a half a bedroom (or more) have been converted to house a group of degus... In these cases, levels and height are irrelevant, since the floor space provided is superior to what can be achieved in a medium size cage loaded with levels. Food for thought... I do stand by the 100 cm height mark, but I believe this is a "case by case" matter. It applies to cages with smaller bases, but is not so important when an owner can provide a larger floor space or a larger cage base. It is important for us to see this as a general guideline, not a rule. In the end, the goal we all share is to help increase degu housing standards. This is a question which still bothers me a lot. How much CARA needs to be added for additional degus?? When we discussed this earlier, I suggested that CARA should be increased by 20% for each degu above two. I have reviewed this and have realised that this number is far too low. By contrast, the requirements for additional degus suggested by the ldka.de calculator seem unnecessarily high. The CARA values which I suggest in the table seem reasonable to me. What do you think? I am particularly keen to hear from owners with four and more degus in a cage. I believe this is best answered from experience and therefore would really appreciate to hear from owners of groups of four, five or six degus (you know who you are ), and in particular those whose groups have increased in size within the same cage, or who have groups of different sizes in comparable cages. I have already mentioned this to you, but the 30% increment seems to be an excellent option. The chart you post here is also very good. I currently house six degus in a cage with a CARA of a little over 29,000 sq cm. I am glad to see this is over the minimum but under the recommended size according to the latest CARA chart. I could not imagine having more degus in this enclosure...so I am pleased to see that the recommended size is larger and not smaller. I do not know many on this forum who house six adult degus in the same cage. Four seems to be the standard size group here. One thing I have already mentioned to Fred is how I like that the recommended CARA for three degus is larger than for two. For so long the 100x50x100 recommended size has applied to 2-3 degus. We often seem to include a third degu in the min. recommended size for a pair. Does this make sense ? I am very pleased to find that here the recommended mark for a trio of degus is clearly set apart from that of two degus. Could not help but notice: Degutopia's recommended sizes are shameful
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Post by fred on Nov 13, 2011 11:25:35 GMT
Thanks again for your comments Jordan. I will stick with the increments for additional degus as they are at the moment. We can always review them in a year or so when we had feedback from more degu owners.
The increment question was the most difficult one for me. I found the 20% value, which I had originally suggested, in several sources. Most noticeable in the Austrian law on animal protection which seems to be the most progressive in Europe and possibly in the world. It goes into much detail (for example sand bath and depth of bedding for degus), so I considered it well thought through. However, when I imagined my own cage with different numbers of degus in it, I came to a different conclusion. I have two degus on a CARA of 24,000 sq.cm and could see it equally suitable for four. But the seven which increments of 20% would allow are inconceivable for me. On the other hand, I have found no explanation whatsoever why the space per animal needs to stay the same for larger groups or even increase as the German calculator suggests.
As far as the Degutopia recommendations are concerned which you describe as shameful (and I agree), they need to be at that level to match the cages in which the Degutopia staff keep their own degus. Have you ever considered to link to their cage gallery as examples of “how not to”?
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Nov 13, 2011 12:39:43 GMT
I can see how making a decision can be problematic. It is good that you use your own cage and imagine a possible number of degus suitable to keep, to help make a decision.
When I compare your latest chart to my own cage, it makes sense. I cannot imagine another degu in this enclosure and that is why I am building something more spacious.
As far as space per animal in large groups, I do not think you will find an explanation. I realise this may be stretching the subject, but in the fish keeping hobby, we measure suitability of an aquarium for a certain number of fish by calculating an amount of cubic cms or inches per specimen, depending on size of the fish. This even applies for small schooling fish like Tetras or Barbs.
For degus or other small animals, I am not sure why the space/per specimen should increase in larger groups. But for some reason it does seem logical to keep approx. same space for each specimen even in larger groups. I believe cage calculators would be too lenient if this were not the case.
Although it is not as if degus are solitary or territorial animals when in captivity...being pack animals, I am not sure why german sources recommend increased space per specimen in groups.
Anyways, yes the Degutopia standards are very poor and although I hope to see a change, I doubt we will see any results. For five years now, the standards have not changed and the cages promoted in the gallery have not changed either. It is sad to see so much emphasis is put into filling cages with useless trinkets rather than encouraging readers to increase floor space and the addition of large levels. All the focus is put into increasing eye-appeal of the cages/setups but no focus is giving to the actual degus living in these quarters.
In some ways, humanity (even in the highly developed countries) is stuck in the dark ages when dealing with animals in captivity.
On a more positive note, I am confident this new way of evaluating suitability of degu cages will have a positive impact here and elsewhere. The progress we have made here over the past year is having an impact of other communities and owners outside the forum. More and more cages are being built, and even as you pointed out to me...even the Degutopia boards are seeing hints of progress with the link to the cage building article being passed around. The standard 100x50x100 recommended min, has become somewhat mainstream and now that we will have fixed standards for sq.cm/surface area, we will be able to help others use the cage volume to its full potential !
Thank you Fred for coming up with this superb idea and putting time and effort into its production.
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 13, 2011 17:55:46 GMT
I'd also like to say you've done a great job with this, Fred Has anyone had any thoughts about approaching Degutopia/ Pets@Home/ John Hopewell about the new recommended sizes? Perhaps once it's up and running it's something to think about?
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Nov 13, 2011 17:59:59 GMT
Not a bad idea Molette, although all previously voiced concerns have gone unanswered.
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Post by fred on Nov 13, 2011 18:34:19 GMT
Thanks molette I had contacted Degutopia's Chloe asking whether she would consider bringing their calculator in line with the RSPCA recommendations. It was only when she refused to even contemplate this, that I started this project. Having also been unable to involve her in a discussion of that strange toxic woods lists of theirs, I'd consider any further attempt in this direction as a waste of my time. I will approach P@H when the chart with explanations is posted (hopefully by tomorrow . I don't know about John Hopewell; I fear his cages at the required sizes will be unaffordable for most.
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Post by fred on Nov 13, 2011 19:39:21 GMT
Maravilla just pointed me to a cage calculator for various small mammals: www.cagecalc.de (thanks ). Except for rabbits the increments for additional animals are in the same range as those used in our cage size recommendations. Good to know!
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