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Post by xquisitedegu on Aug 6, 2011 0:44:43 GMT
I have just joined this site as I would really like some advice regarding one of my male degus.
I have two brothers aged 2 yrs and 10 months. In January Phoenix developed overgrown spurs that were cutting into his tongue. He has had three ops for this and has come through them well, although I think a little under-weight (226g). However, this is just background info as my problem concerns his brother, Saffron.
10 days ago I noticed behaviour in Saffron that was different to anything I have ever seen either of them do before - I will try to explain, but it is quite tricky to. First he chatters his teeth a little then he pushes his head forwards and downward, slightly opening his mouth as he does so. A bit like a cat would do if you were tickling it under the chin, but without the tickling.
I took him straight to the vet. Since they first once developed teeth problems I have been training them both to allow me to look at their mouths, fortunately I have had most success with Saffron and the vet was easily able to see that a spur was cutting into his cheek. Saffron was operated on the next morning (Thursday 28th July).
The vet is their rodent expert, but they used to have a degu expert who has since left the practice. Also we live at the bottom of Cornwall and not many vets here have come across degus much, so there is little chance of finding another one. Phoenix's first two ops were done by the degu vet and the third by the same vet as operated on Saffron, so I was hopeful that everything would go as well as it had for Phoenix.
However, Saffron continued to do these strange actions. I contacted my vet, and was advised to give him Metacam for the pain (one drop on a treat) - I have done this but he was still having problems, so I called the vet again on Tuesday, but the vet who operated is away till Monday.
I have now noticed that his mouth may be a little swollen, so have started him on Baytril (I have the painkiller and antibiotics at home anyway as we have had quite a lot of elderly gerbil illness recently - a litter we had who are now all heading towards 3 years, so as you can imagine there has been a lot of heartache there recently).
I only started the antibiotics today, so know it is too soon to see if it is helping. I am hoping to see some improvement by Monday, or it will be back to the vet.
My questions are, has anybody seen this kind of dipping and moving the head forward action from their degus and how do I get the antibiotics into him as he has begun to get very stressed by this. He used to love to come and sit with me for a cuddle, but is wary of coming out of his cage now.
I have a needle syringe too from the vet, and was wondering what might be suitable to inject the medicine into. It doesn't help that Saffron has gone off of most veg and what he does like isn't particularly suitable for injecting into.
Any help/advice would be so very much appreciated - thanks in advance to anyone who has this info.
Jackie
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Post by xquisitedegu on Aug 6, 2011 10:22:51 GMT
I forgot to mention, he does seem to be eating properly so I am wondering if the tooth problems may be coincidental and maybe there is something else bothering him that is making him do these strange movements.
Again, any help would be so appreciated.
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Post by xquisitedegu on Aug 6, 2011 11:01:41 GMT
Just figured out how to get him to take the antibiotics - I'll jut put it in his water. So simple I should have thought of it before. Vet is calling me back with the correct ratio.
I would still appreciate any help as to why Saffron is making these strange movements, or anyone who has seen this behaviour before. Thanks :-)
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Post by emz on Aug 6, 2011 12:10:30 GMT
If you put it into the water, won't the other degus be drinking it also? With liquid antibiotics I did what you did mention in your post I dripped it on top of a treat. I chose a dry, thick treat so the antibiotics actually absorbed into the treat (the little fishy shaped biscuits from pets at home is what I used.) It also meant cause it was thick that it could hold a reasonable amount of the stuff (I never bothered using my syringe.)
If you need to give him a lot though and you feel a treat is still not enough then cupping your hand around their back so they are well supported and holding them on their back should usually subdue them after a second or so - though I suggest a second person to then give the antibiotics. Make sure if you do this to give them lots of love afterwards! I know with my rabbit the other week he became very wary of me for a few days as I had to give him antibiotics twice a day myself.
Have you asked a vet to check for an abscess around the mouth and jaw area? Also what sort of chew stuff do they have available in their cage? More harder chew toys may help lower the frequency of the problems you're getting.
As for his weight, it's actually fine if you go by the "rough" weight guide, which is 170 - 300g. Of course, the better way is to see if they feel bony or not. I judge my own degus weight off of how they look and I have not really ever weighed them. However if your degu has tooth problems I'd suggest to always weigh them.
I wish I could help more with the behaviour. I am not fully sure what you mean by your description. Are you able to get video footage? I did re-look through degutopia's behaviour guide and didn't spot anything that matched your description. Maybe someone else will be able to help but if not footage would be useful if you can.
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Post by xquisitedegu on Aug 7, 2011 18:59:17 GMT
Thank you so much for your reply emz.
Regarding the antibiotic in the water, I checked if this would be OK with the Vet before putting the medicine in the water, and was told it would do no harm to Phoenix if he drinks the water too, so I have put 0.2ml of Baytril into 40ml of water and then change to normal water if that is all gone in less than 24 hours.
The degus usually have a 2-week post-op check up, so will be taking him back to the vet this week anyway. The thought that he might have a lower jaw infection had crossed my mind too. It was one of the reasons I thought it would be a good idea to put him on Baytril in the first place. When I check with the veterinary practice they agreed it would be best to start him on this, as my own vet (who operated on Saffron) won't be back in until Monday.
I have tried holding and cupping him to administer the medicine, and my daughter, who has just finished an animal care course (including some knowledge of degus) would try to use the syringe to give him it, but he would always get far too stressed.
In their cage they have 5 mineral/chew blocks of assorted types and a cuttle fish (though they don't seem to have touched the latter). Several short planks of kiln dried pine criss cross their cage for jumping around on and chewing (these get replaced as they are worn down). Regular apple wood/hazel/pear in the form of sticks, branches, and cobs as well as Yucca and coconut (hollowed out). They also have thick wooden 'leap shelfs' and many of the small runaround chew toys that you find on chinchillas2shop.
They never chew their bars (except at the cage door, to get my attention) as there is always something more interesting to chew on.
Although he is currently still doing this strange pushing the head forward and down movement, I haven't noticed him doing it quite so much today. Maybe some of the antibiotics that were administered by hand did actually get into him before I started the water method, and that is starting to have an effect - or I just haven't been paying enough attention.
They don't exactly feel bony, but I haven't weighed them for over a week so that is something I must get done again.
I will see what I can do about getting some video of what he is doing, if the problem persists past the visit to the vet.
Thank you again for your advice, it is very much appreciated especially as there seems to be quite limited knowledge about their more obscure behaviour.
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Post by xquisitedegu on Aug 8, 2011 14:44:38 GMT
Emz, I tried your idea about putting it on a dry treat - I did this and let it dry overnight. He had no qualms about eating it, so I have swapped to this way of giving him the antibiotics. At least I know know if he has taken the whole dose or not.
I have contacted the vet and am currently waiting for him to get back to me.
Thanks again for the advice, it really helped :-)
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Post by xquisitedegu on Aug 11, 2011 16:03:25 GMT
I only ended up using the water method for 24 hours, I went with Emz idea of putting it on a treat. I put his dose on it each night and by the morning it has dried right in and he is more than happy to munch away on it.
Yesterday I finally got to speak to the vet who performed the operation. He confirmed that there had been no other problems and he had checked all his teeth. I am a bit concerned that his front lower teeth look a little long, but then, I am not too sure how long they should be. The vet assured me that if they had grown a bit longer because of the spurs on the back teeth (not allowing the mouth to close properly), then this would correct itself within a few weeks of the op. For now, he wants me to continue with 0.05ml of Baytril a day plus 1 drop of Metacam and just keep an eye on Saffron. He has said to take him in the minute I notice something different/unusual or if I just want him checked over, but we both felt that at the moment another visit to the surgery would just be distressing and may not even lead to a solution.
I have been trying to video Saffron's strange movements, but every time we get the camera on him, he stops or moves into an area where he cannot be seen so clearly.
I will try to describe what he is doing again, maybe it will jog the memory of someone who has had a degu who has done this or maybe someone will have read about this behaviour somewhere.
First he will hold his mouth a little open and then start 'chattering' his teeth so that it makes little clicking noises. Just after he starts the chattering he will begin to move his head - forward at first, but very quickly changing to a diagonal downward motion, whilst still chattering his teeth. He then gets to a point (still with his head downward) that he opens his mouth wide enough to see about (maybe) 3ml of lower front teeth. His upper teeth are only a little visible, it almost seems as though he were trying to move his jaw forward.
Each motion, from start to finish, takes about 6-10 seconds and he will repeat this anything from 2 or 3 times to 5 or 6 times.
He is eating properly, though possibly a bit slow as it seems to take him longer to nibble down the pieces of hard food than it does for his brother. Even with softer treats it still takes Saffron longer to eat than Phoenix. One more thing, I'm not sure if it is the way he is holding his mouth or if his lower lip may be a little swollen.
I'm hoping the vet is right and that if it is a problem with his front teeth, then they will wear back down now that his back teeth have been sorted.
Thank you to everyone for their replies so far, they have been very helpful - just need that elusive answer as to why he is doing this.
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 11, 2011 18:58:38 GMT
Sounds to me like he has a sore throat . . . I have no idea how you would check for that though.
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Post by xquisitedegu on Aug 13, 2011 13:05:14 GMT
Thank you deguconvert, that does seem like a probable cause, especially when you think of the ridiculous motions humans do to try to avoid the pain of swallowing.
Whatever the cause, I will be taking him to the vet on Monday if there is no improvement over the weekend. I will post the vet's verdict when I get back. Thanks again :-)
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 13, 2011 18:13:20 GMT
I hope he improves, but if not, I hope the vet is well able to be helpful!!
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Post by malteser60 on Aug 13, 2011 18:48:00 GMT
Keep us posted with what the vet says. The main thing is that Saffron is ok. However it is good for us to know what the vet says as it means we can learn from it. Not that we are vets! But if any other member has a similar issue with their goos we can help them, even if it is by saying that another forum member has had the same issue.
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Post by xquisitedegu on Aug 14, 2011 19:00:54 GMT
Can anyone tell me how long a degu's bottom incisors should be - I am still concerned that this is the problem (it is what I had thought I was taking him to get checked when we initially went to the vet).
Obviously I cannot get a ruler into Saffron's mouth, but his bottom incisors are easily visible and look as though they could be as long as 4 or 5 mm - they certainly look longer than pictures on Degutopia showing healthy teeth, they look about twice the length.
If this is the case, and being that overgrown front teeth were mentioned at the initial consultancy, would I be wrong to request that the vet's surgery contact the vet that used to work there and is a bit of a degu expert? BTW, this is not just a random thought I have had - before the vet left the practice he did say that if anything came up that needed his attention then he would be happy to come back and treat/operate on either of my degus.
I believe that the current vet has been (mostly) going by notes left by the previous vet, as this was what he had said when I asked if he was used to operating on degus.
They are a brilliant vet's practice and have always been great where our cats or gerbils are concerned (the vet who is treating the degus is their rodent vet), but I am not sure if the difference in degu physiology warrants me asking for the other vet to make a special trip.
Sorry to use the good people of the forum for this moral rather than health dilemma, but I don't want to kick up a fuss about getting the other vet to do the op, if there is no real reason why a vet used to dealing with other (larger) rodent's teeth shouldn't do it and I guessed this would be the best place for advice on that and the length of the incisors.
Thank you again, your advice and support is very much appreciated - Jackie :-)
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 14, 2011 19:17:30 GMT
It sounds like they do need to be trimmed, but I have never had to have any of our boys teeth trimmed, so I don't know how to advise here. I don't think there should be a significant difference between the rodents they are used to treating and your degu. At the same time, it is hard not to go with the vet you have full confidence in.
I think I would give the vets that are there a chance to do it. Degu teeth grow very quickly, so even if a mistake occurs, it should naturally correct itself very soon.
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Post by xquisitedegu on Aug 17, 2011 14:43:07 GMT
Well, going to the vet didn't quite work out....Phoned first thing Monday, but my usual vet is away this week, so booked appt. for today with their covering small animal vet.
However, it looks like the extra couple of days may have helped. Saffron is once again chomping down on branches, pearwood slices etc and the strange movement he has been doing seems to have decreased in frequency.
Not for certain what has been going on, but there does seem to be an improvement. Due to this and the fact that the boys both now get very stressed by visits to the vet, it has been agreed that I will keep an eye on him and so long as he keeps improving we will leave him to it. He is no longer having antibiotics or painkillers either.
Fingers crossed :-)
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 17, 2011 21:13:34 GMT
Sounds good. I'll be thinking of you and checking on your thread.
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Post by apology72 on Aug 21, 2011 2:25:52 GMT
Although I am new here, but I hope it's ok if I say my opinion here ? If I have understood correctly, the veterinarian operates at a tip at Saffrons back teeth. Saffron could not close his mouth in due of the tip properly, so it is the consequence that the front teeth continued growing too long. Although now the tooth tip has been removed, but after your description, he can not close his mouth completely. So I interpret his strange movements as a sign for too long front teeth. I want you to recommend to visit a vet who really knows with dental problems. Do you weigh your degus regularly? If Degus loss weight rapid and had dental problems before, then you can often see earlier when the vet should look again in the mouth Best wishes Apology
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Post by xquisitedegu on Aug 23, 2011 11:43:44 GMT
OK so it is over a week since my last post and Saffron has finally had the vet grind down his front lower incisors. Just got back about half an hour ago.
Yes, Apology, my thoughts went exactly where yours did. The movements had to be caused by the overgrown lower incisors - I think he was uncomfortable and this movement was an effort to release the discomfort of not being able to close his mouth.
It had got to the point where the tips of the teeth were touching (not with the lower ones behind the upper) and this was keeping his mouth open all the time.
Keeping an eye on him last week really wasn't working - it was agony seeing him keep doing this movement and it was distressing to both of us. I finally cracked on Thursday, and took him to see the covering vet. At first she wasn't too sure if they were overgrown, but she admitted she was not used to degus. I had brought Phoenix along for comparison and she could then see it was obvious that Saffrons teeth appeared to be about twice the length.
She tried clipping them, but the clippers were too cumbersome to fit into Saffron's mouth and he started to panic - so we gave up and I booked him in for this morning with the vet that had done the original work to his back teeth.
Only had him home a little while now, but I was told he had been eating at the vets (they won't let pets come home until they have eaten), and I haven't yet seen the head movement from him. He's having a snooze with his brother at the moment.
Hopefully this is an end to it and we all now know why he was doing this diagonal head pushing movement. Maybe this info will help someone else get an earlier diagnosis for their goo.
Back to the points made by Apology, yes I do weigh them regularly - I find it is a good early warning system for potential problems, and yes I would love to find another vet who is as good with degu dental problems as our original vet was, but we live right down the bottom of Cornwall in Penzance and I have called all the vets for miles around.
The practice I am with and the vet who has been doing their treatment are my best option. It is the same practice that my original degu vet was with, and he has said that if there is anything that the vets still at the practice cannot handle, he will come back down to treat my goos for me. Also, my current vet is becoming more familiar with degu physiology all the time as they are becoming popular pets in this area.
I will try to (remember to) post again in a week or so, hopefully to confirm that everything is still OK.
Thank you to everyone for their help, advice and support - it has been comforting to know that other degu owners have been trying to figure this out with me.
Jackie :-)
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Post by apology72 on Aug 23, 2011 14:32:25 GMT
Hi Jackie, I'm glad to hear that now saffron is apparently feeling better and I hope that he can eat again without any problems. A few words to cut teeth: Better than using a clipper is using a cutting disc. Many vets here in Germany use a dremel type. I´m not sure if you no what i meen, so a little Photo Here, the degus are usually placed to sleep by a gas anesthetic during dental procedures. The vet may work better and for the animals it is less stressful. Lovely Greetings Apology
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Post by Kat on Aug 23, 2011 15:25:57 GMT
On the weight issue...
One of my degus is 219g and stays within 2g +/- of this. He is perfectly healthy, he eats and exercises well. He dosen't feel or look skinny. If 226g (or very close to this) is his usual weight, I wouldn't worry about it. My boy is smaller overall. How long in Phoenix?
Kat x
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Post by xquisitedegu on Oct 13, 2011 9:35:13 GMT
The latest update is a sad one. A solution for Saffron, but we lost Phoenix last night.
Saffron's problems re-appeared within a few days. I have spent the time since then trying to contact my original vet.
He was nice enough to contact my present vet with the reason behind his problems. My vet was away on a course for a week or so, and I only got to the vet yesterday.
Saffron's problems are caused by the roots of his lower teeth growing down into the jaw. We can only treat him with painkillers. 1 drop a day. Got to give it a few days to see if it works.
Because there had been so many problems diagnosing Saffron, I took Phoenix along to the vets with me for comparison (I had noticed Saffron's jaw has swelled up).
But we were in the waiting room when Phoenix had a fit - then another in the vet's room. The vet was sure it was just a bit of stress and he would be fine when we got him home (we live less than 5 mins from the vet).
Sadly not - the fits continued (really don't want to go into detail), and he died about an hour and a half after getting home.
I feel so stupid and responsible.
I have spoken to my vet and it would appear, from the health problems that they have both suffered from, that they may have been quite in-bred.
We are due to move in about a week or two and it seems possible that the move would have had the same effect - I just would have had him a bit longer.
We won't know for a while if the painkiller will help Saffron.
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