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Post by savvy on Oct 12, 2021 18:49:44 GMT
It is distressing but sometimes you have to take a deep breath and employ tough love. I always hated medicating and force feeding, but knew it was for their own good.
Keep persevering, it will get easier when he realises its doing him good.
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 12, 2021 20:07:22 GMT
Wear an old shirt, wrap the degu in a towel or large cloth, once you get a decent hold nestle degu against your chest. Let the CC sit for a couple of minutes before you start and add more water than you think because it thickens up, keep a damp cloth and a dry cloth by you to clean up the degu after you finish.
In my opinion, he won't gain weight on critical care, it's best to do the dental asap, he will only go downhill in the meantime if it is a dental issue.
You might have to get bold and just ask around friends or family to see who could take you if you pay their petrol. If you get desperate you could see if any local rescues or facebook animal groups could help with transport. Some rural areas have low cost volunteer transport you can book. If you have a well protected and secure carrier, then take him on the bus if you have to.
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Post by teemu on Oct 12, 2021 20:42:58 GMT
I agree with Molette. It is very unlikely that he'll gain weight from forced feeding, unfortunately. The only real solution is to get him to a vet who can actually check up on him and help him, something like this can't really be solved at home. So if at all possible, try to find some way to reach the vet. In the meanwhile, I'm afraid the only way to help him is to be gentle, but firm. Degus are really good about expressing outrage when they're handled in any way that they do not approve of. I would advise that you use something he can recognize when you do the feeding, like wearing a glove or giving him some sign. This will make him try to escape and will rile him up, but it's also a really good way to ensure that the degu does not start to be suspicious of you in general. If he learns that this only happens when a certain sign is given, he won't start to fear interacting with you in otherwise.
My boy, Pulla, had to go through multiple months of really nasty routines like this, and I would always use the same black leather glove. It was of course to protect my hand, but he also very quickly started to recognize it, and would shriek and try to flee or hide and I had to catch him. However, I was very careful to never do any of that stuff to him without the glove, and he was totally fine with me handling him otherwise. So it makes things a bit harder, but it really does seem to protect the owner-pet bond. As for practical tips, wrapping in cloth is one, if you can manage it. If not, and if you can grab a hold of him with a glove, another way is to hold him (gently but firmly, do not squeeze, only retain a hold he cannot get out of) so that his back rests on your palm, and your thumb is over his chest. This way you can keep him in position. Then, take the syringe, and come from the side, not from the front. You will never win the fight against a degu's incisors after he has decided to shut his mout, but from the side, just behind the incisors, there's no teeth at all. So insert the syringe from there, between the lips, and quickly squirt some in before he can start tossing his head. Degus cannot spit, so as soon as he's got that stuff in his mouth, and you won't let him run off to rub it somewhere, he will start ingesting. Take care not to go too far towards the cheek with the syringe, because they have flappy skin around the cheek, so that even if you think the syringe is in the mouth, it might actually still be outside. But from the side, behind the front teeth, has worked for me well. Give him time to eat, do not rush the process, because he can only eat so quickly with a pained mouth.
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 13, 2021 6:12:59 GMT
Yes, do go slowly with the syringe. Pushing things into his mouth too fast raises the risk that you will shoot it into his lungs. That is really nasty, and would result in pneumonia, or worse.
I was going to suggest that you try some different thicknesses of critical care. Degus are texture sensitive, just like many other creatures, and some like it thick and gooey, while others prefer it thinner. See if you can learn what he likes. Also, adding in some finely ground nuts, such as peanuts, or almonds, or walnuts, or hazelnuts, can help to improve the taste and the reaction you get from your degu.
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Post by creggle on Oct 13, 2021 9:59:26 GMT
I can't do this, his breathing is now getting worse which makes it seem like some has gone into his lungs. I'm not even going fast or too forceful, he's just so so so resistant to anything going into his mouth and his mouth breathing ontop of that... He's likely too underweight to operate on especially if some of this cc is going into his lungs :/ he's gone extremely lethargic, the crying is worse, he sounds like he's breathing bubbles. I think he's going to have to be put to sleep while he hates me, he might die hating me Useless vets the lot of them, they had opportunities to find out the tooth problems and fix the spurs. They poke him, and send me away with ANTIBIOTICS and do nothing useful, while taking all that money.
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Post by creggle on Oct 13, 2021 10:04:03 GMT
Also, the person who can refer my Degu to the specialist is still in surgery and I haven't heard anything, his only chance is an operation by tomorrow at the very latest, and nothing...
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Post by bouncy on Oct 13, 2021 11:42:25 GMT
I'd call the specialist direct, explain your goo can't wait, and get him booked in.
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Post by creggle on Oct 13, 2021 11:49:36 GMT
I have, they said they hadn't recieved a referral from the previous vet, and then after about 45 minutes of being on hold and calling them back and forth they FINALLY found the referral, their exotics specialist is booked up until Friday. I may get an appointment by Friday if I'm lucky, next week if I'm not.
He isn't eating, he is fighting so hard to avoid eating the critical care formula to the point its distressing us both and could be entering into his lungs, his weight is dropping and even if he ate the formula happily, it wouldn't be enough to maintain his weight!?
He's 195 grams, his brother is a clean 300. He has a chance of surviving anaesthetic today and at a push tomorrow, but Friday and beyond I fear is a death sentence.
I did explain it was an emergency, explained to everybody I spoke to at each vet that he's at a critical point with his weight where surgery will be impossible if left any longer. Nothing. 'We will see when he can book you in ASAP'.
Surely close to death animals go up in the queue :/
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 13, 2021 18:18:57 GMT
Creggle, I am so sorry!! This is so hard for you both!! I am wondering if he would eat ground or shaved nuts . . . not butters that are sticky, but more like . . . finely chopped. So that the pieces of nut are soft and easy to take in? Calories are important, so giving him plain, uncooked, porridge oats is totally OK to do as well. There are also oil seeds that are good, and are small and easy to ingest, but would offer him dense nutrition . . . here is a link. deguworld.proboards.com/post/85255/thread
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Post by bouncy on Oct 13, 2021 19:18:51 GMT
It sounds like they'll call if they get a cancellation, but I'd still call them at the start and lunchtime of each day.
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Post by hpdegus on Oct 13, 2021 21:39:56 GMT
I have a very picky degu who also has dental issues--have you tried making a watery solution of critical care and soaking oats in that? Ollie won't eat critical care normally, but he'll tolerate that, or even rolled oats that are soaked in water. Ive also been cutting crocks in fourths then also soaking them in water/meds (just to soften them up a bit).
Best of luck, thinking of you and your degu.
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Post by creggle on Oct 14, 2021 7:11:15 GMT
Thanks guys
sunflower seeds, oats, strawberry, about 7 new types of degu feed, new brand of hay, red pepper, spinach, dandelion
all of these he doesn't just refuse, he ignores them, they'd might as well not be there
i have appointment in an hour and i have found a way to get there, im hoping the vet will do dental work on him despite being underweight, it really is his only shot
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Post by creggle on Oct 14, 2021 7:14:00 GMT
he eats nothing, he doesnt even acknowledge any food. but ive gotten enough critical care into him that he's pooping a little, weeing too and his weight is about the same as it was on tuesday, 195-200 range. it only cost me our bond and him suffering thinking that his friend wants to hurt him
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Post by bouncy on Oct 14, 2021 15:07:24 GMT
Don't worry, deep down, they realise you're trying to help. Once they start to feel better, they do register this. Spidey once had eye drops. He would fight the burrito for the first couple of days. After that, he realised it was helping he still struggled, but it was a token fight, then he'd stay still long enough for me to squirt it in, snatch his treat, and stomp off. He felt I needed reminding who the boss was.
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Post by bouncy on Oct 14, 2021 15:08:01 GMT
Ooh, how did you get on at the vet?
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Post by creggle on Oct 14, 2021 16:46:38 GMT
He was put to sleep at 12 don't think it's even hit me yet.
His brother keeps shrieking and chirping to himself while in the wheel, he hadn't seen his brother for 9 hours except a brief look at him since I bought him home to help him understand what's happened. When he isn't in the wheel he sits on a shelf and chatters his teeth (not grinding, it sounds different), he also very lightly chirps at nothing when on the shelf.
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Post by creggle on Oct 14, 2021 16:50:14 GMT
The loud shrieking squeeks are the loudest I've ever heard a Degu be, even louder than their barks or alerted squeeks
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Post by bouncy on Oct 14, 2021 17:18:35 GMT
I'm so sorry! His brother will grieve in his own way, but lots of mum cuddles will help.
Did the vet confirm what was wrong?
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Post by creggle on Oct 14, 2021 17:33:27 GMT
hes apprehensive about being touched at the minute, he comes to me and stops just short and then does something else, im very worried... again the vet was chine house which I believe is the one recommended in the thread, very costly but i trust in craig's advice, x-rays showed he had overgrown roots in almost the entireity of his mouth and he surprisingly had minor spurs that shouldn't of inhibited his use of his mouth, no cuts or infections in his mouth or body, a very healthy degu with the exception of the roots which were too far gone to fairly put him through the surgery required to fix them, with little chance of survival. on the way home i was hopeful, no less thn 20 minutes after coming home i got the call and the news. i really was hoping it was just spurs, the little man must of been in so much pain because he would never move his tongue either. thankfully craig explained that his 'crying' was more to do with a noise he couldnt help making from where the roots had grown, similar to us whistling? that was nice to hear, i had been with him every day since this started and his what i thought were his cries had drained me to the point of illness the worst part is the fact that the last 3 days he was subjected to syringe feeding which he fought against like he was terrified for his life, ran from me everytime i came into the cage. he was so scared at the vets too, much more so than when I took him to yourvets on tuesday, he groomed me and himself during that consultation but today he barely let me stroke his cheek. i know they arent to blame and genuinely wanted to help, but i dont know that i can ever forgive yourvets for causing me to syringe feed him. our bond never reformed before he went, he was my snuggly little timid goo for 5 1/2 ears and he passed being afraid of me sry for the rant
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 14, 2021 18:02:31 GMT
I'm so terribly sorry, Creggle. My heart breaks for you!!
Don't apologize for the rant. You are grieving and your heart and mind are needing to somehow release some of that grief. We understand, and we're OK with it. We've all lost pets, and we've all experienced great anger and great grief, depending on the circumstances . . . at the same moment. Just as you are today. When things go so horribly wrong and we are powerless to alter them . . . we just want to scream at the world. You were truly doing your best to try and help your boy, and he was in great need of nutrition. Without it, he would have a died a very slow and painful death in your home. As it was, you were able to take him to a vet and have examinations that revealed the great difficulty of his condition. Those elongated roots would have been so very painful as well. It is a mercy to him to be without that pain anymore. And truthfully . . . the surgery that removes those teeth and roots, likely would have killed him in the process. It may not seem like it right now . . . but it is a mercy to you and to your degu that he didn't have to experience that surgery. I hope you can someday take comfort in that fact.
If I could, I would reach through and hold you in a long hug right now. I share your grief.
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