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Post by creggle on Oct 9, 2021 20:10:24 GMT
Hi, It's been a very long time since I came on here and I hope you've all been well. My two male goos are 5.4 years old judging from my post history (ashamed to say I only had a rough estimate of their ages at first before remembering this place).
My timid and friendly goo who was ill the last time I was on here is ill again. He doesn't appear to be able to breathe out of his nose very well, it is mostly or completely blocked and he is mouth breathing which is causing some bloating that I'm fighting with Infacol (Oval alternate in the UK)
Behaviour wise he is okay which is really shocking, no different from normal, he uses his wheel and eats no problem, cleans himself and his brother etc. but he is struggling to drink, it takes him a while and he chokes a little. He's been semi lethargic since I've had him, it's hard to explain but he is a very shy little man who often likes to sit on a perch and watch everything, he is active in the wheel and obsessed with making the nest tidy but doesn't move around much otherwise. He's always been like this and his activity hasn't changed at all. The thing that is really scaring me though is the sounds he's making. There are periods where every breath is accompanied by a squeek. The sound is similar to the start of their growl (his brother does this noise ALOT so I'm quite used to hearing it) and it sounds like he's a little sad. His nose seems to also make a very faint noise that I can only really compare to a ventilator or something as he breaths. Like I said before though his behavior is normal, and he's been this way for about 3-ish weeks, but it's only recently that it's gotten noticeably bad.
I've been to the vets twice but nobody around here has any idea how to care for a Degu, a lot of the vets genuinely had never heard of them. This was the case when I first got them and he was ill and it's sad that it's also the case now. He has had 2 courses of Baytril but his breathing has only gotten worse.
I'm not sure what to do, I've bought a new cage as this current one is getting worse for wear and I have completely new toys substrate and food coming and will hold off on using the ones I have now once they all arrive as a precaution to see if that helps. I don't think at this point that it's a respiratory issue as he's had it so long and it still isn't effecting his mood. I think it's likely a newly developed allergy to something in the cage or a dental issue.
I'm at my wits end though and really need advice of any kind, I can't lose him. For my sake and his brothers. I don't want to get caught in the trap of replacing Degus constantly, and I definitely don't want to replace Peaky, but I also don't want to have his brother (who'll likely live very long as he's a very strong and erratic fellow) to be alone. Though considering that he seems fine in his behavior I also don't know if I'm overreacting.
Sorry for the rant, I've been torn up for a few days.
Thanks.
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Post by savvy on Oct 9, 2021 20:30:19 GMT
I don't know if this will help, but I had a similar problem with my degu Dixie about 18 months ago. deguworld.proboards.com/thread/23016/dixie I think you need to get him to a degu experienced vet, we've added to our list so you may find one in your area. Please let us know how he gets on.
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 9, 2021 23:06:02 GMT
I'm wondering about dental issues . . . in particular those related to elongated roots from the teeth. The only way to know if they are a problem is to XRay the skull of the degu. You might want to ask your Vets to call in a consult with an exotics vet that is well familiar with vets. There is a really good one that one of our moderators uses . . . bouncy, what is his name? John Chitty? Not sure if I've got that right or not. I'm hoping they would welcome the opportunity to get some very good insight into an animal they know nothing about.
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Post by bouncy on Oct 10, 2021 11:04:52 GMT
That's right. He's on our vet list under Anton Vets, and he accepts questions by email at exotics@antonvets.co.uk.
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Post by creggle on Oct 10, 2021 16:18:07 GMT
I don't know if this will help, but I had a similar problem with my degu Dixie about 18 months ago. deguworld.proboards.com/thread/23016/dixie I think you need to get him to a degu experienced vet, we've added to our list so you may find one in your area. Please let us know how he gets on. Thing is, the closest Vet on that list is 2 hours there and 2 hours back. I do remember getting help from an exotics vet the first time around but speaking to the girl from Pets @ Home it doesn't seem like he's local any more. In regards to the topic you listed, you think he could have something in his nose? It sounds like he's whimpering as he breathes and has difficulties breathing through his nose but otherwise is normal. He does have eye discharge though, he's also had that for the few weeks he's been like this. I think I forgot to put that in my first post, and there is somewhat of a bitter smell around his face/eyes. I haven't seen the white discharge for a while but he's had what looks like wet fur from his eyes and below the entire time. It's so odd, I can't find anything similar at all to what is going on no matter where I look, these symptoms are so weird. I've got in contact with John via the email you posted, hopefully he might know something. One last rundown: -Eye Discharge -Nasal block -"Sobbing" as he breathes -Difficulties eating/drinking due to the blocked nose, but he has an appetite No lethargy, no obstruction to any of his usual daily activities, even his wheel, and has been like it for several weeks. Would you say that rules out Pneumonia or respiratory related problem?
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Post by creggle on Oct 10, 2021 16:19:22 GMT
I'm wondering about dental issues . . . in particular those related to elongated roots from the teeth. The only way to know if they are a problem is to XRay the skull of the degu. You might want to ask your Vets to call in a consult with an exotics vet that is well familiar with vets. There is a really good one that one of our moderators uses . . . bouncy , what is his name? John Chitty? Not sure if I've got that right or not. I'm hoping they would welcome the opportunity to get some very good insight into an animal they know nothing about. Dental issue would be my bet too, all of his individual symptoms all have dental problems as a common cause, even the eye discharge. If I was to get an XRay how could we tell if something is wrong? Would it take an expert to see if something is wrong?
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 10, 2021 16:52:57 GMT
With you specifically mentioning the problem drinking, I'm wondering if he has a spur puncturing or trapping his tongue. Also if there is a smell, this will be a sizeable infection.
I would get him to a degu experienced vet for a mouth exam, probably with sedation, as soon as you can. If that means travelling 2hrs each way then I would even do that, arange with them in advance to book him in right away for sedation so you don't have to go twice. Honestly, unless you live somewhere remote, I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a competent vet nearer. Get on the phone to any animal rescue locally, wildlife rescue, anywhere like that should be able to recommend somewhere. Most normal vets have specialist exotic vets they can refer cases to or vet dentists they can refer to if necessary. Lots of vets are in contact with vet hospitals or specialists like John Chitty who they can refer to or send over xrays for someone to look at.
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Post by creggle on Oct 10, 2021 17:04:34 GMT
With you specifically mentioning the problem drinking, I'm wondering if he has a spur puncturing or trapping his tongue. Also if there is a smell, this will be a sizeable infection. I would get him to a degu experienced vet for a mouth exam, probably with sedation, as soon as you can. If that means travelling 2hrs each way then I would even do that, arange with them in advance to book him in right away for sedation so you don't have to go twice. Honestly, unless you live somewhere remote, I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a competent vet nearer. Get on the phone to any animal rescue locally, wildlife rescue, anywhere like that should be able to recommend somewhere. Most normal vets have specialist exotic vets they can refer cases to or vet dentists they can refer to if necessary. Lots of vets are in contact with vet hospitals or specialists like John Chitty who they can refer to or send over xrays for someone to look at. The problem seemed to be more him trying to breathe through his mouth as he drinks, he's a little silly. Is it possible they would do that? I'm not 100%. The smell is also from his eye discharge. I read that a dental problem could accompany bad breathe but he doesn't have that, the smell goes away each time I clean his eyes with a wet flanel (which he loves, he really is weird lol) Yeah I'm definitely going to look around to see if there's someone with Degu experience hiding somewhere, the problem with the 2 hour trip is that it would also be public transport, which isn't happening. I'm not subjecting him to that, he's incredibly skittish around everyone but me as it is.
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 10, 2021 17:11:42 GMT
It's possible that the position required to drink is completely closing an already compromised nasal passage. I doubt there would be any choice or silliness on his part, breathing is such an essential function the potentially silly part of his brain won't be involved. You could try positioning the bottle higher, bearing in mind that it won't solve the problem, just possibly slightly improve one aspect.
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Post by creggle on Oct 10, 2021 17:20:18 GMT
It's possible that the position required to drink is completely closing an already compromised nasal passage. I doubt there would be any choice or silliness on his part, breathing is such an essential function the potentially silly part of his brain won't be involved. You could try positioning the bottle higher, bearing in mind that it won't solve the problem, just possibly slightly improve one aspect. When they dust bath he tends to sit and eat it, you would be surprised of the odd things that he does. It seems easier for him to drink the lower the bottle is, his brother isn't impressed but he drinks much better with it a few inches from the floor.
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Post by savvy on Oct 10, 2021 17:22:12 GMT
Have you tried giving him water through a syringe?
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Post by bouncy on Oct 10, 2021 18:05:11 GMT
Degus all have preferred weird positions to drink in, so go with whatever is easier.
All the symptoms you're describing are exactly the same as my Scaredygoo. The ONLY way to diagnose root issues is by x-ray, with no way around it. There may be spurs inside his mouth, but these can be dealt with at the same time as the x-ray. John really is helpful towards owners and vets alike.
In the meantime, help your little one. If the nose is wet with snot, leave them to it. If it becomes a bit crusty, a wet cotton bud will help remove it. Ditto for the eye. You'll have to make sure they're eating enough, too. Critical Care, baby food without added salt or sugar, ground nuts, or even normal pellets softened with hot water. I know you had issues with syringes before, so try placing the food on a dish or in a bowl. You may have to fend off cage mates or remove them to feed. Feeding should be regular and frequent. You'll get into a routine after a while.
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Post by creggle on Oct 10, 2021 18:52:51 GMT
Have you tried giving him water through a syringe? He is drinking fine it just makes him cough, if you can call it that. He drinks better in my hand though as he pulls the metal bit to wherever he wants it.
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Post by creggle on Oct 10, 2021 18:55:42 GMT
Degus all have preferred weird positions to drink in, so go with whatever is easier. All the symptoms you're describing are exactly the same as my Scaredygoo. The ONLY way to diagnose root issues is by x-ray, with no way around it. There may be spurs inside his mouth, but these can be dealt with at the same time as the x-ray. John really is helpful towards owners and vets alike. In the meantime, help your little one. If the nose is wet with snot, leave them to it. If it becomes a bit crusty, a wet cotton bud will help remove it. Ditto for the eye. You'll have to make sure they're eating enough, too. Critical Care, baby food without added salt or sugar, ground nuts, or even normal pellets softened with hot water. I know you had issues with syringes before, so try placing the food on a dish or in a bowl. You may have to fend off cage mates or remove them to feed. Feeding should be regular and frequent. You'll get into a routine after a while. I was worried about that, it does sound like spurs but can spurs also block the nose and cause weepy eyes? I do have a video of him and the sounds hes making but IDK where to upload it that isn't a silent .gif Thanks for the advice but he's eating and drinking fine on his own and doubly fine by hand, he chased my hand around my bed earlier to get a piece of green bell pepper it didn't seem like he knew what noise to make when he got fed up. I'm waiting for a reply from John, I shall check every chance I get. Tomorrow I will move them into their new mansion.
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Post by teemu on Oct 10, 2021 18:59:39 GMT
Youtube is actually pretty good for video uploads, even for private purposes. You can upload "hidden" videos, which can only be viewed through the link that's not available publicly. It's also free, so it's a handy way to do it.
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Post by bouncy on Oct 10, 2021 20:24:59 GMT
It's the overgrown roots that cause weeping eyes and runny noses. Imagine you've had a really sharp reaction on a tooth, or a bash on the ear. Part of your physical reaction may well be a watering eye, which leads to a runny nose.
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Post by creggle on Oct 12, 2021 10:36:48 GMT
Will be taking him to a different vet in a few hours and telling them its likely tooth related. If it isn't spurs and is instead root overgrowth or both, what can be done?
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Post by bouncy on Oct 12, 2021 12:53:40 GMT
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Post by creggle on Oct 12, 2021 16:16:51 GMT
I've seen that thread, there's not much I can do regarding it at the minute but I've been back from the vet and fed him 3 syringes of critical care (more like 1.5, he wasn't cooperative), and gave him most of his painkiller and antibiotic again. I hate syringe feeding him, he's so unhappy after and it's so messy. Does anyone have advice on how to syringe feed a Degu because I can't keep doing it like this, he's so distressed.
The vet I went to has not got the equipment to trim spurs, and did not want to risk sedating him to see his back teeth as he only weighs 195 grams now. I've been referred to a specialist that I already knew of, I don't know how I can get there :/
After the Critical Care, Enrobactin and Loxicom there's been no improvement, he's still crying and won't eat.
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Post by bouncy on Oct 12, 2021 18:16:44 GMT
I do understand it's distressing when you have to try and force feed a goo, but imagine the alternative!
The more you can get him to eat, the better any weight gain, which then strengthens his chances with sedation. How long have you been given loxicom? The reason I ask is because it can take two or three doses before they feel the results. We never feel like eating when in acute pain, so getting on top of it will increase appetite. You may even get to the point where he'll willingly eat the cc from the bowl.
Stick with it, and get to the specialist asap!
Oh, something else that may help - ask for branded Metacam rather than generic loxicom. Mine won't touch anything but Metacam because it's honey flavoured, and will actually spit out anything else.
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