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Post by nugget on Jun 11, 2021 13:20:44 GMT
I have four degus all aged 18 months from the same litter. Blinky(F), Pinky(F), Inky(M), and Clyde(M). I had the two boys neutered shortly after their first birthday and when they were all healed up I introduced them to the two girls. Almost straight away they were all cuddling and got along really well, but about four months later the girls suddenly started fighting.
I don't think it has anything to do with the boys because they would have started fighting as soon as they were introduced to the girls (?). I don't think it's a hierarchy thing either because Pinky has always been very dominant while Blinky is very submissive, so their positions seem obvious. I've never had any problems before with the girls, they always got along, so I have no idea why they suddenly started fighting.
I've had to keep the girls separated so they don't seriously hurt each other, and to make sure none of them are left alone I put one boy in with each of the girls, meaning that Inky and Clyde are also separated from each other. Every week I swap the boys over so their relationship with the girls isn't compromised, and when I have time at the weekend (usually every two/three weeks) I let the two boys go together again while I try to reintroduce the two girls together but every single time Blinky and Pinky start fighting.
Recently I've been really busy and haven't had time to swap/reintroduce the degus. It was left with Blinky+Inky and Pinky+Clyde for about one month and there were no issues there. I've finally had time this weekend to try reintroducing them but because they've been separated for a month the boys have started fighting too! I decided to give up for the day and just swap the boys over but now Blinky and Clyde aren't getting along either. Pinky and Inky seem OK but there is a lot of squeaking and mounting going on between the two.
It would be easier to introduce just two degus but now I've got four degus that need introducing to each other. At the moment I'm just trying to get Blinky and Clyde to get along so I can start swapping the boys over again every week but it's really hard. I'm so stressed I don't know what to do.
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Post by savvy on Jun 11, 2021 14:29:51 GMT
Welcome to the forum, I'm sorry to hear about the problems you're experiencing.
Its good that you've had the boys neutered, however, at least half of degu testosterone is produced in their brains so it doesn't stop their urge to mate, it just stops them reproducing.
Squeaking and mounting sounds like Pinky is on heat and that will cause tension in any group as they can get quite short tempered due to their hormones.
I doubt if the current weather will be helping either.
Personally, I'd keep the two groups you have, degus live quite happily in pairs, one male (neutered) and one female in each is ok.
Other members may have different suggestions.
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Post by bouncy on Jun 11, 2021 17:06:58 GMT
Can you please give us an idea of your set-up? Cage dimensions, levels, etc?
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Post by deguconvert on Jun 11, 2021 17:49:52 GMT
I'm thinking that having been together for a month without changes/swapping, each pair has bonded well with each other. Breaking them up as you have done this weekend, will have each of them mourning for their partner. I would immediately restore them to the pairings of Blinky + Inky, and Pinky + Clyde. Otherwise you may suddenly find yourself with four very resentful degus that don't want to be together with anyone, and/or injuries from the conflicts that could develop.
I had a group of 2 males and 2 females and things did not go well. The more natural order is one male with one or more females. I am thankful that your males have not fought. The females may not have been fighting for dominance over each other, but for the primary position with the males. Which may have eventually resulted in the males deciding that one female had to go. That happened in my case, and one male was determined to kill the one female. Thankfully I was already in the process of building a separate cage for my males, I just had to speed it along to be done ASAP.
Cage size is extremely important, and I echo Bouncy's questions.
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Post by nugget on Jun 11, 2021 21:39:00 GMT
Welcome to the forum, I'm sorry to hear about the problems you're experiencing. Its good that you've had the boys neutered, however, at least half of degu testosterone is produced in their brains so it doesn't stop their urge to mate, it just stops them reproducing. Squeaking and mounting sounds like Pinky is on heat and that will cause tension in any group as they can get quite short tempered due to their hormones. I doubt if the current weather will be helping either. Personally, I'd keep the two groups you have, degus live quite happily in pairs, one male (neutered) and one female in each is ok. Other members may have different suggestions. The two boys have actually always been very docile so it's unusual for them to fight, but they've been separated for a while so I can understand why they're fighting now. They've been best friends so I hate the idea of keeping them apart, the only reason I did it in the first place is so the girls wouldn't be alone, but now I'm thinking I might have to keep them separated long-term. I only recently found out that female degus have distinct hormonal cycles and I do think that's what caused the initial fights between the girls. Pinky is always very feisty and dominating, even towards the boys, so it's a bit hard to tell the difference for her. Maybe it was Blinky that was in heat and Pinky didn't like the sudden competition? I doubt Blinky was the one starting the fights, she's a nervous degu and will avoid all conflict if she can... Do you happen to have any advice/info on degu hormone cycles? Like how to track it, do they synch up, etc.? |
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Post by nugget on Jun 11, 2021 21:39:16 GMT
Can you please give us an idea of your set-up? Cage dimensions, levels, etc? The full size of the cage is roughly L:100cm x W:50cm x H:100cm, with two levels and can be separated into four sections. All four degus are in the same cage, they can easily see/smell/interact with each other (which there have been no problems with), but the 'doorway' between the two halves of the cage is closed off so they can't get to each other to fight. The two separate halves measure L:50cm x W:50cm x H:100cm each and both have two levels. |
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Post by savvy on Jun 11, 2021 21:59:38 GMT
There's never been any clear evidence as to if their cycles sync, but female degus come on heat approximately every 21 days.
Symptoms are increased energy levels, lower appetite, increased vocalisation and increased aggression, with loads of chasing and mounting. This usually lasts for a couple of days, then they tend to crash, energy wise, and sleep a lot for 24-48 hours.
If you can get them into stable mixed sex pairs, I think that would be the best way to go at the moment. Neither degu would then be alone and mixed sex pairs can work out. At 18 months old, you're degus are still quite young.
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Post by nugget on Jun 11, 2021 22:18:12 GMT
I'm thinking that having been together for a month without changes/swapping, each pair has bonded well with each other. Breaking them up as you have done this weekend, will have each of them mourning for their partner. I would immediately restore them to the pairings of Blinky + Inky, and Pinky + Clyde. Otherwise you may suddenly find yourself with four very resentful degus that don't want to be together with anyone, and/or injuries from the conflicts that could develop. I had a group of 2 males and 2 females and things did not go well. The more natural order is one male with one or more females. I am thankful that your males have not fought. The females may not have been fighting for dominance over each other, but for the primary position with the males. Which may have eventually resulted in the males deciding that one female had to go. That happened in my case, and one male was determined to kill the one female. Thankfully I was already in the process of building a separate cage for my males, I just had to speed it along to be done ASAP. Cage size is extremely important, and I echo Bouncy's questions. They're in their original pairs now. Trying to reintroduced them today proved to be too stressful for the degus and for me so I quickly put them back. Blinky is definitely the weakest degu in the group, after reading your comment it has made me think that Pinky and Clyde are possibly trying to 'weed her out'... At least Inky is OK with her, right? :') They got along so well for the first few months, it's really upsetting that I'm having to separate them now. The whole reason why I go the boys neutered was so all four siblings could be together. I'd love to have them together again but if that puts anyone in danger then I really don't want to take that risk... |
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Post by Xellie on Jun 11, 2021 22:41:57 GMT
First of all I want to congratulate you on amazing names for them.
If I'm reading it right, you were swapping them over in their groups in the cage? I had a breakup in my large group of girls and did something similar, and it resulted in more fighting. The way to keep them all friendly was a playpen which is a neutral territory zone. (half the time they're too excited to squabble, then they realize they are with each other and don't mind.)
I don't have experience with mixed sex groups, but I considered it and decided strongly against it, since I've heard stories that the smell of males/females for the other gender could trigger fights over them. One male multiple females seems to be the way it needs to be done.
If I were you, I would do 1 male + 1 female, and make sure you have a neutral place for re-introducing. Be aware though, it takes a long time for them to work out their differences. Short intros and time outs when trouble starts, rewards when things go well. It's a real game of patience.
50x50x100 won't be large enough long term.... There are 2 levels?
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Post by nugget on Jun 11, 2021 22:44:44 GMT
There's never been any clear evidence as to if their cycles sync, but female degus come on heat approximately every 21 days. Symptoms are increased energy levels, lower appetite, increased vocalisation and increased aggression, with loads of chasing and mounting. This usually lasts for a couple of days, then they tend to crash, energy wise, and sleep a lot for 24-48 hours. If you can get them into stable mixed sex pairs, I think that would be the best way to go at the moment. Neither degu would then be alone and mixed sex pairs can work out. At 18 months old, you're degus are still quite young. Thank you for the info! I want to try to keep track of their cycles, hopefully that way their behaviour will be easier to predict and understand. They're in stable mixed pairs at the moment, Blinky+Inky and Pinky+Clyde. Do you recommend keeping them like this long-term, or do you think I could gradually reintroduce them given a bit of time? I've had degus before where they fought badly and I had to separate them but after a month or two they were fine again, that was with same-sex pairs though so it's probably different with a mixed group of four (?). |
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Post by nugget on Jun 11, 2021 23:45:03 GMT
If I'm reading it right, you were swapping them over in their groups in the cage? I had a breakup in my large group of girls and did something similar, and it resulted in more fighting. The way to keep them all friendly was a playpen which is a neutral territory zone. (half the time they're too excited to squabble, then they realize they are with each other and don't mind.) I don't have experience with mixed sex groups, but I considered it and decided strongly against it, since I've heard stories that the smell of males/females for the other gender could trigger fights over them. One male multiple females seems to be the way it needs to be done. If I were you, I would do 1 male + 1 female, and make sure you have a neutral place for re-introducing. Be aware though, it takes a long time for them to work out their differences. Short intros and time outs when trouble starts, rewards when things go well. It's a real game of patience. 50x50x100 won't be large enough long term.... There are 2 levels? I was swapping the boys between the girls with the idea that they could maintain their relationships until I can eventually get all four back together. So one week I'd have Blinky+Inky and Pinky+Clyde, then the next week I'd have B+C and P+I, and then go back to B+I and P+C, and so on. I tried doing that again today but now Blinky and Clyde are fighting too so I've kept the pairs at B+I and P+C. Sorry, I know that sounds a bit confusing but I hope I've explained it well enough. Each of the halves of the cage are 50x50x100 (vertically) and have two levels. They're basically just two vertical cages we've stitched together to make a bigger one. The whole thing altogether is 100x50x100 with two levels, which according to degutopia is suitable for 2-5 adult degus. While the half-size can hold two adult degus I know it's not ideal or comfortable for them, which is another reason why I'm hoping all four degus can eventually go back together. :/ |
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Post by Xellie on Jun 12, 2021 3:13:52 GMT
Yep that was the same kind of swapping around I did in the hopes I wouldn't have to separate my girls perma.... it just made things worse.
The re-introductions? I'd say as often as possible. Watch their body language for the things that lead up to the fights (you pick it up after a few sessions), tail thumping, back turning, tooth grinding.
Can I ask, are they interacting while in the split cage setup? If so are they just talking, or are they "trying to get to each other" and chasing up and down?
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Post by nugget on Jun 12, 2021 11:03:35 GMT
Can I ask, are they interacting while in the split cage setup? If so are they just talking, or are they "trying to get to each other" and chasing up and down? Most of the time they're indifferent to each other and don't really pay attention. When they do interact I'd say it's 70/30. More often than not they'll be happily talking and chirping, but other times their tail will be thumping and they're trying to get to each other. (Most of the time it's Pinky showing the aggression. Sometimes Clyde and/or Inky will, but they only ever do it towards one of the girls. Blinky never does this.) They don't actively chase up and down, they'll only interact if they just happen to be next to each other, as soon as one moves away it stops. When they are cuddled up sleeping the two pairs often sit right next to each other, as if they all four of them want to be huddled together. I get really mixed messages with this bunch but I'm starting to think that the aggression could be influenced by one/both of the girls being in heat... |
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Post by bouncy on Jun 12, 2021 11:08:22 GMT
Ok, degutopia is very out of date, and the husbandry of degus is changing all the time. At the moment, you have 10,000cm2 in total for your four degus. Our recommendation for two degus is 12,000cm2. For four degus, we recommend nearly double your running space, at least 19,000cm2 Is there a way that you could add full levels to your existing habitat? This should help with your reintroduction process  |
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Post by Xellie on Jun 12, 2021 13:35:34 GMT
Yep that was the same kind of swapping around I did in the hopes I wouldn't have to separate my girls perma.... it just made things worse. The re-introductions? I'd say as often as possible. Watch their body language for the things that lead up to the fights (you pick it up after a few sessions), tail thumping, back turning, tooth grinding. Can I ask, are they interacting while in the split cage setup? If so are they just talking, or are they "trying to get to each other" and chasing up and down? Most of the time they're indifferent to each other and don't really pay attention. When they do interact I'd say it's 70/30. More often than not they'll be happily talking and chirping, but other times their tail will be thumping and they're trying to get to each other. (Most of the time it's Pinky showing the aggression. Sometimes Clyde and/or Inky will, but they only ever do it towards one of the girls. Blinky never does this.) They don't actively chase up and down, they'll only interact if they just happen to be next to each other, as soon as one moves away it stops. When they are cuddled up sleeping the two pairs often sit right next to each other, as if they all four of them want to be huddled together. I get really mixed messages with this bunch but I'm starting to think that the aggression could be influenced by one/both of the girls being in heat... It's hard to figure out what starts the fights, but if the girls were in heat, it'd last maybe 4 days and repeat every 3rd week (roughly) - one of my girls went through a small time where she was nasty in heat. I strongly agree that you should add more levels - not only does it bring stress down, but if a fight does break out, they can just time out from each other. |
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Post by nugget on Jun 12, 2021 15:27:45 GMT
The cage is 500,000cm³ (100cm x 50cm x 100cm) which as far am I'm aware is fine for four degus? It has lots of shelves/etc for climbing, running wheels, boxes for digging, chew toys, plenty of feeding hay, and most days I let them out of the cage to freely run around my room.
I would really love to build a huge king-sized enclosure from scratch but I don't have the space, resources, or money to do so...
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Post by bouncy on Jun 12, 2021 16:04:35 GMT
With degus, it goes on running space, as they're predominantly ground rodents. Each full level therefore gives you 50X100=5000. I totally get the overwhelming possibility of them and their enclosure taking over your home! Available cages in the market make it difficult, too. Many of us (me included before I did a build) have added additional full or extended existing half levels. You've got great height to your cage so, working around your wheel, it's certainly possible! Have a look here: deguworld.proboards.com/thread/18717/choosing-improving-metal-cage |
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Post by nugget on Jun 12, 2021 16:15:30 GMT
Thank you for the info |
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Post by deguconvert on Jun 12, 2021 19:15:49 GMT
Cage size is really crucial. The disagreements and fights you have seen are likely related to the cramped spacing of the cage. Bouncy has given you great advice and help, and I was going to say the same thing. I don't need to repeat what she has said, but I do whole heartedly endorse it!
I do however want to give you an example. In a tall building you can often find a freight elevator that is a little larger than the prettier ones for people. They are helpful for moving large objects to the upper floors. In a hospital they help for the movement of patients in their beds, from floor to floor. Now one of those with the bed and several medical staff becomes very crowded. The spatial volume of that elevator shaft is immense, but the only place for that bed and those people to occupy is the floor of the elevator. They cannot live and move anywhere but on that floor (surface area), despite all the empty space above or below them (Volume).
Volume vs surface area are two very different things.
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Post by moletteuk on Jun 13, 2021 10:26:25 GMT
In my opinion it's not really worth trying to get all four back together due to you having two boys and this not being a recommended grouping. I think it's worth thinking about how to get the two groups of two comfortable long term. To do this you are going to need another cage or a very different arrangement and modifications. Forget Degutopia, it hasn't been updated for years, their sizing will not give you happy degus able to express their natural behaviour.
If each pair is in a cage with a 50x50cm footprint, then you need to act quite soon to change this. Footprint needs to be 100cm long or very close for degus to be able to run. Would it be possible to turn the cages on their sides? When this forum took off 10yrs or so ago we had a lot of members in your position with tall narrow cages and some people did change them to lying down and made it work, at least temporarily. Obviously you would need to make some base trays. These cages still would not be big enough as the new 50cm height would likely not be enough for you to put a second full extra level in.
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