Male-female dynamics?

[teemu]

Seems like one of the girls is in heat again. Suti is very keenly intrested in Pulla now and keeps making these very "whiny" noises at him while lying down or prancing around. Not sure if it's supposed to be positive or negative, but it sure seems to get Pulla worked up about it! He absolutely wants in.

[savvy]

Yeah that sounds about right. You may find that she has a couple of days of frantic activity and then takes to her bed for 24-36 hours to recover.

[teemu]

Ah, thanks for the notice, Savvy. Given the current state of affairs with me watching the girls constantly for signs of health issues, that surely would have made me really concerned. It seems like she kind of tuckered herself out for now in any case

This might have actually been excarbarated by the fact that I swapped some more of their bedding and spread it around the cage, also on the levels that are normally not covered with bedding. Mostly they've lost interest in the smell pretty quickly though, which is probably a good sign. Nobody seems to be too hung up on having smells from the other cage in their space any more.

[teemu]

Suti has been whiny and has been making sure that absolutely everyone knows that she's in heat. I'm actually beginning to suspect that the earlier whiny noises I thought were made by Pulla might have been made by one of the girls, since they are exactly the same as then. Might even explain why Pulla got so worked up last time and absolutely freaked out trying to get close to them earlier. This is the first time ever he's seen girls, on top of it being the first time he's seen degus as an adult, aside from Munkki.

On that note, the stupid boy is so worked up that he just keeps pushing at his bars and shuffling up and down so much that he's chafed a balding spot onto his forehead against his bars. I can't imagine that being pleasant, but I also guess he'd probably stop doing that if it was actually painful...

I tried putting the cages as physically close as possible today and carefully observing how they'd get along while within actual touching range (since I haven't been able to do intros yet, I figured it'd be the next best thing to at least gauge their reactions a bit, with one hand on Pulla's cage all the time). It actually went totally well, and while I didn't keep their cages touching for a long time, nothing aggressive happened, and all the degus sniffed each other very calmly. It seems like things might turn out alright.

[teemu]

First tryout of the carboard pen today, and things couldn't have gone better! Everyone was pretty confused, and the girls spent a lot of time just trying to see if they could jump over the fences (they couldn't so evidently this works!), but they did interact with each other and there was no fighting at all! I only tried it out for something like 10-15 minutes now, since I didn't want to stress them out too much to begin with, but very promising.

Pulla had apparently spent his couple of weeks of thinking time realizing that these were indeed girls, and that he does not hate girls at all. Most of his time was spent swaggering around the pen like the absolute alpha male he seems to think he now is, humping the girls and peeing on them. The girls did not seem to mind this and put up with it just fine. Towards the end Suti was starting to look a bit annoyed about the whole thing, but I called it off before things could go into an actual argument. I'm thinking Pulla will likely calm down a bit over it after the novelty of having girls around wears off.

Other than humping, they did groom each other and smell each other, and both Pulla and the girls engaged in standard socializing behavior (offering chest and chin to be groomed, sniffing each other's hind parts, some non-aggressive pushing etc). I couldn't see any outright aggression, other than some complaining from Suti towards the end. It went really well and a few weeks of time to get used to each other obviously helped. I'll do it again tomorrow, and hopefully a few times will also make everyone more used to the pen.

[deguconvert]

Sounds awesome, Teemu! Well done!

[teemu]

Another intro today. I think it's still looking very promising, even though today I observed a lot more actual necessary hierarchy settling and some screaming as well. It seems that everyone was less confused by the weird pen today, so they were more focused on each other. There was more grooming and socializing, and also a couple of screaming fits on both sides as certain degus got really worked up about the whole thing momentarily.

Limppu got one big screaming fit at Pulla, probably something between getting spooked and stressed and kicked him, but Pulla took it very well and simply gave her space. Pulla also got kinda worked up over... something and did a weird screaming fit and pushed Posso away really angrily at one point, but it didn't look like he was actually trying to hurt her. More like he thought Posso was up to something and went "Don't you dare!" There were also some other situations that I would say seemed like pretty normal social squabbling where mostly unfamiliar degus try to work out whether the strangers are up to no good and if they can be friends.

Overall I think it's looking pretty promising. Pulla got a fit at one point like I said, but just lifting him up onto my hand and giving him a scratch seemed to calm him down a lot. He's obviously very careful about the whole situation, as are the girls, but I don't see anyone being actually aggressive or angry at the sheer idea of other degus. There wasn't even any boxing, just some "Don't try anything!" or "leave me alone!" screams. The rest of the time they were grooming each other or inspecting the pen.

EDIT: And Pulla had obviously already gotten a bit less worked up over the idea of girls. Much less wanton humping. I think he only humped Posso once and then mostly went around inspecting the girls.

[moletteuk]

Sounds good

[teemu]

Ah, and a quick inspection shows that Posso is also, again, in heat. Makes sense since she was in heat pretty soon after she came and it's been about a month from that, so it's that time again. Explains why Pulla humps her so persistenly.

I guess it's good that all the degus have essentially accepted the assumed male-female dynamic between them. Makes it probably a lot easier for them to get used to each other if the Pulla recognizes the girls as his harem and the girls seem to be alright with the idea of having an alpha male around.

On that note, are there any actual signs that would denote a good time to try out how they react to each other inside the same cage? I guess just when they seem to be casual and at ease around each other?

[deguconvert]

I would give it more time before looking there. Give it another week and assess . . . better to go a little slow than too fast.

[teemu]

Third intro today. We did it for a bit longer today and there was a lot more arguing and hierarchy settling (but not in a bad way, I think). None of the girls were in heat today any more, apparently, and all of them had gotten used enough to the pen that the big, socially inept oaf (Pulla) trying to hump them all the time really annoyed them. All three girls told him off in no uncertain terms and shouted at him a lot when he got too handsy with them.

I think it's a good thing. Pulla has to learn how to work in a group. It's also very encouraging to see that he's willing to back down when confronted like that, instead of actually getting aggressive or something. When the girls shouted at him or pushed at him, he either backed off or assumed an almost submitting pose, going low and turning his chin at them in a "whoa, calm down" way. Pulla did get frustrated and shouted back at them a couple of times and pushed at them a bit, but that also seemed like socializing behavior more than anything. Essentially, they had a lot of arguments today, but no one seems to really hate the others as such. Arguments are also to be expected, I think.

There was also a lot of sniffing and grooming and peeing on each other and all that, so I think all in all things are going about as well as they usually do, in these things. Pulla is obviously kind of struggling with this, but he needs to learn how to do these things or otherwise he's going to be a single bachelor his whole life. So even if he gets punched a bit, I think it's all ultimately for the better.

I added a wheel to the pen today so they'd have something to do. It worked to some degree, but it also made Pulla much more handsy with the girls since they just tried to run away in the wheel when he started grabbing them, and a couple of big arguments broke out over that. So I think I need to put something less agitating in there for the next time. But not something where any of them could be trapped or anything to argue over since that can really heat things up.

[teemu]

It seems like Pulla and Limppu (the oldest agouti girl who's really growly at times and shouts angrily at anything she finds suspicious) are the most conflict-prone between all of them. Limppu is really ready to tell him off if he gets handsy and screams at him a lot more than anyone else, and they spent a lot of time nose to nose, apparently trying to work out how to do this. For some reason, Posso often tried to get in between them and groom them while that happened. Maybe she's trying to mediate?

[moletteuk]

May 6, 2021 12:11:21 GMT teemu said:

So even if he gets punched a bit, I think it's all ultimately for the better..

Hilarious! It's a good job they aren't human


Sounds good but be careful not to go too quickly at this point. With some of them lacking social skills it only takes one misunderstanding to put you right back. The mediating behaviour sounds interesting, it might really help Limppu accept Pulla if the other girls actively want her to.

[teemu]

Yeah, I'll be sure to keep doing these intros until it looks like they're actually at peace with each other, and I'll monitor them very carefully in case we need a break or anything

On that note, some real progress happened today! They were all a lot calmer, and Pulla had calmed down a lot with his humping behavior. He's obviously very careful around the girls, and as soon as they tell him to back off, he'll do it right away. He seems to be looking for ways to approach them peacefully, going to meet them with his head low and acting all concilatory, which seems like a really good sign. If the girls aren't reacting, he'll carefully try to groom them and establish some social contact with them. It really seems like Pulla wants to be their friend. The girls reacted very well to this, and he kind of hugged and groomed all of them in turn.

The girls themselves seem to also be starting to realize that Pulla might actually be a pack member instead of a random stranger. They're acting more inclusive about him and keep less distance normally, and I also observed that they were a lot more intrested in his smells today. Some social squabbling as well, in a way that seems to suggest they're having to consider their social hierarchy again now that Pulla is around a lot (which is probably a sign that they consider Pulla to possibly be a part of their social group?). Nothing aggressive of course, just usual chattering noises and some light boxing before moving on.

There was some screaming as well, most of it coming from Limppu towards Pulla, but Pulla takes it really well and adjusted to her demands very quickly. By the end of it Limppu was a lot more receptive to his careful approaches and allowed him to groom her back and side without turning around. The other girls are more receptive to him anyway, but I observed similar behavior there as well. All in all it seems like they're all figuring how to get along, but there's still work to be done.

I'm kind of surprised how well Pulla seems to be adjusting, socially. It seems like he's gotten over a lot of his anxiety about how to interact with other degus. A few times dealing with small girls that don't try to oust him from his home (unlike Munkki, back then), or literally dropkick him off furniture, or tear his ear, seems to have eased his anxiety a lot.

[deguconvert]

WELL DONE, Teemu!! This is so exciting!

[teemu]

Another excellent intro today! I did only 15 minutes today because I was away for the whole day and it was pretty late when I got home (didn't want anyone to be cranky due to being sleepy), but each intro has been notably better than the last one. Today there was almost no arguing at all. Only in the beginning when Pulla got excited and ran to Limppu, who gave him a quick shout. Pulla immediately remembered his good manners and there was no screaming at all during the rest of the visit. But I did observe a lot of hugging, grooming, submitting behavior from the girls and more of the mediating behavior I noticed earlier.

Pulla was also mounting the girls again a lot, but it honestly seemed a lot more like dominance behavior than mating behavior. He took a long time to do it and was careful to groom them all the while doing it, and it looked more like "hugging" than just frantic humping he did earlier. All of the girls also accepted it with no complaining, and they can't all be in heat, so I think it's essentially them agreeing that Pulla is the big man and all that. Often when this happened, the other girls also came over to groom Pulla at the same time.

Like I mentioned, the girls also did a lot of submitting behavior. Especially Posso, the smallest and meekest girl, who practically dove under Pulla multiple times to groom at his chest and belly. And other than that, all of them were also more casual around each other and acted more natural about it. There was also a couple of weird "group hug" situations where all the degus suddenly got together into a big standing huddle, all of them chirping excitedly, and groomed at each other for a bit before separating again.

Very promising and exciting!

[deguconvert]

Teemu, I would LOVE to see the group hug thing if you are ever able to capture it! This is AWESOME!!

[teemu]

I tried to take a picture today, but of course they realized I was about to record their tender moment and immediately spread out

I'll do my best, I should post new pictures soon anyway.

[teemu]

I think the pen is starting to outlive its usefulness. While it has been a decent starting point, it's obvious that it's still hindering their natural behavior and taking up way too much attention. The girls just want to jump out of it all the time and devote much of their energy to that, and they're also starting to become way too good at figuring out how to break it. They're clever like that. So I think it's time to take the next step by cleaning the kitchen thoroughly and letting them have their outing times there from now on. They've been making good progress, and it's a good step to see how Pulla will react to other degus closer to what would be his home turf. I think he will do fine, given the evidence, but we'll see.

Another intro today, and it went pretty close to the one yesterday. Some more fussing than yesterday, but all in all very nice. It seems that Posso is totally submitted to Pulla now and does not resist mounting, and Pulla also expects her to groom him (and she does) any time they meet. Limppu also allows mounting and generally is alright if Pulla takes his time and remembers his manners, but doesn't hesitate to give him a piece of her mind if he oversteps her boundaries. Suti, I've noticed, tends to simply avoid Pulla when possible, and is careful around him. Suti seems to be the most active and the quickest one anyhow.

If all goes well, the kitchen should allows for much easier intros where everyone has more attention towards each other.

[deguconvert]

Have they ever had time to explore the kitchen on previous occasions, or will this be new territory to them?