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Post by teemu on Apr 21, 2021 17:35:33 GMT
It's a bit hard to say right now. The girls seem to have generally forgotten that Pulla even exists, and only periodically pay any attention to him at the moment. Pulla also mostly does his own things, but I have noticed that he spends less time on the upper level of his cage during evening, and prefers to lounge on the lower level. I suspect this is because there's less line of sight between the lower level and the girls, so maybe he prefers some privacy?
I did witness an altecration between the two cages earlier today when all of the degus happened to be in the same corner at the same time and noticed each other again. The pups got kinda worked up and started pawing through the bars and all that, but it was actually Pulla who started squealing, and it was this weird, more whiny, less screaming noise that he let out. Things calmed down pretty quickly afterwards.
Seems that Pulla does not take kindly when the pups start putting on any airs of authority, and gets stressed about potential conflict situation very quickly.. I seem to recall things being pretty similar with Munkki: Pulla would be rather happy to initiate social contact and groom/ask for grooming, but Munkki usually did not like this and would start slapping and kicking, at which point Pulla would get really stressed and angry about it. He's always been pretty short-tempered, and his bad experiences with Munkki have probably left a bad impression.
I think I'd need to get some sort of a calm interaction to happen for Pulla to realize that they're just small pups that pose no threat to him. Getting punched by Suti spooked him a lot.
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Post by bouncy on Apr 21, 2021 21:29:13 GMT
Pulla got beaten up by a girl?
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Post by teemu on Apr 21, 2021 21:40:17 GMT
During the first day, yeah He's honestly a huge softy (you should see how he complains and begs for emotional support if anything happens!) and the fact that a small, scared degu pup jumped at him and screamed has apparently made him sure that those little things have it out for him! He's pretty wary about them, but he also looks genuinely curious and tries to observe them a lot. He hasn't actually shown any aggression or negative posturing unless the pups initiate it. The pups mostly don't care about the big guy any more unless he gets really close (like, to the point where it seems like he's actually going to try to get into their cage, which can't happen now that I moved their cages farther apart). They like sleeping right under his gaze and ignore him for the most part, although Posso still seems rather intrested in imitating Pulla's bar gnawing right next to him when he does it. I even took Pulla out of the cage and stood with him in front of their cage to give him another angle to look at the pups from, and while they obviously saw him, none of them seemed to be worried. I'm also very positively surprised by how brave all the girls seem to be. They're all acting like this has always been their cage, and all of them have visited my hands. Limppu does it casually all the time and climbs onto my shoulder as soon as I put a hand into the cage, and Suti seems to think of Limppu as her big sister and carefully tries out whatever she does. Posso is the most timid one and hangs out by herself a lot (she's Suti's sister), but I managed to lure her out to touch my hand as well with a sunflower seed. The girls really seem to have already figured out that this is their home and lounge around in plain sight while they're not running around all amped up. Maybe it's the fact that the house already has a degu smell so it seems safer?
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Post by bouncy on Apr 21, 2021 23:11:15 GMT
I think that being similar ages and knowing each other has helped a lot with how they're behaving. They're highly intelligent, and probably worked out the cage layout between them within 30 minutes. Pulla's going to have to work hard if he wants his girlie cuddles
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Post by teemu on Apr 22, 2021 13:04:56 GMT
I'm a bit confused as to what's going on right now. Pulla's sometimes doing this weird thing where he gets really keenly focused on the pups and then suddenly does this "stress squeal" (hard to explain, it's not a regular distress thing, more like a quick and less loud squealing noise) and looks like he's desperately trying to push himself through the bars at the pups. The pups don't respond at all, last time this happened they were resting and did not care.
I'm not sure if this is a worrying sign or not. Maybe he really wants to see them and is agonised because there's something in the way? Or maybe he's really anguished about these pups intruding on his home and wants to beat them up? I really don't know what it means...
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Post by deguconvert on Apr 22, 2021 20:55:27 GMT
It might be something that you will unravel and understand better as you continue to watch his reactions. It's still very early days, and Pulla himself may be trying to figure things out. Give it more time. You are an keen observer, I'm sure you will start to see things that you hadn't noticed before, and seeing those things will add pieces to the puzzle and make it easier to solve.
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Post by moletteuk on Apr 23, 2021 11:02:29 GMT
Sometimes you get a situation where all the degus involved want to be friends but they just don't know all the required degu etiquette to sort out the heirarchy and get along. This can lead to them getting quite upset and confused by each other. Hopefully the pups have learned enough and can figure out the rest from each other and hopefully Pulla's caring instincts to younger degus and then male-female instincts will help them figure it out. I would suspect that Pulla's squeal means frustration that he can't be with the youngsters. deguconvert have you got any specific advice on how teemu should/could proceed? I'm wondering if a space familiar to everyone might be a better option for a meet to keep everyone calm, rather than a neutral space? I suppose teemu could get everyone more familiar with a place that is still neutral before they meet again in that space.
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Post by teemu on Apr 23, 2021 12:46:13 GMT
I do think that there is a strong etiquette issue at play here, Molette. Pulla's all real social experiences with other degus (aside from when he was a tiny pup) have been with Munkki, who was not even his real brother, and who for a large part of their interaction was volatile and could suddenly become aggressive. So it seems like he easily "stresses out" about the whole thing and suffers an outburst because he thinks the pups are strangers who might also start attacking him. Now that I've had some time to think about it, I think the sound he makes is actually pretty close to a pain reaction from when he got his ear torn by Munkki or similar things.
I honestly feel he would be very receptive to the pups as soon as he realizes they're not antagonistic to him.
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Post by deguconvert on Apr 23, 2021 18:12:35 GMT
My thought has been to give them at least a week to settle into the house. One reason being . . . it is known that two of the girls are littermates, and the other is a week older, but it is not known if they actually knew each other before being put together for the purposes of sale. If they were strangers before that point, and I think it highly likely . . . then they are still adjusting to each other, as well as their new place. They are adjusting really well, which is awesome, and I think that could well be a reflection of the cage size being so much better now that they live with you, Teemu.
Being introduced quickly to Pulla may have been very overwhelming for him as well as the girls. Pulla is not used to having three other degus in his near space, nor is he accustomed to females, and even though he doesn't have his testes anymore, there will be information filtering through his brain that informs him that they are partners of a different sort. How to behave with them . . . well that is something he may have to learn.
Building a good relationship with the girls will help with your efforts, Teem. Knowing how they respond and relate to each other, means you will begin to understand their subtle cues to each other and in part, what they mean. Pulla may display cues as well, but this being a new situation for him, you might find it hard to interpret what he is indicating, since it is new to both of you. As suggested by Moletteuk, I think a space common to everyone will also help. What spaces do you have that might work for this, Teemu? Have you been sharing the sand bath between them all? DON'T change or sift the sand . . . it is important that they all begin to smell the same. So in many ways for them . . . the stinkier the better. Yes . . . leave the poop in as well.
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Post by teemu on Apr 23, 2021 18:37:20 GMT
That all sounds like sound advice, Deguconvert I agree that they'll need time to adjust, and it does look like they are adjusting bit by bit right now. Pulla seems to tolerate situations where the girls all swarm near his cage better than he did yesterday (still some squealing at them, but he has also observed this quietly) so he's probably learning that they're not actually threatening him. I have been bathing them in the same sand, yes, and I've also swapped some of the bedding between their cages since that was also something I've often seen advised. Pulla has been a bit confused about this and has marked over it a lot, but it doesn't seem to actually make him nervous, which is good. As for a common space, that's a bit tricky. The only room that's well-suited to degus is our kitchen, and that's where Pulla has had his outing time for many years. I guess the only real option would be to build a playpen in the bedroom, since our bathroom and hallway are both very drafty and full of small nooks. Pulla has sometimes been to the bedroom, but that's more or less neutral territory. I'd have to look into how to build a degu-proof pen, but the idea seems doable at least.
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Post by bouncy on Apr 23, 2021 23:57:18 GMT
The alternative is to clear Pulla's scent from the kitchen floor, so it becomes neutral?
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Post by teemu on Apr 24, 2021 0:09:50 GMT
Would that work? I'm sure he would still recognize the room, and he probably remembers having a lot of fights with Munkki there (it was a neutral area back when I tried to reintroduce them, and they were able to meet peacefully there at least some of the time, but it often turned into scuffles especially towards the end), so it feels like it might be a bit of a traumatic area to have introductions in? If that would work, I guess it'd be easy to just clean all the surfaces thoroughly, but he is pretty smart when all is said and done... I think I've got a playpen idea worked out, though. I've got some really big cardboard boxes laying around, so it should be possible to cut a couple of those open and make walls out of them and fix them together with something. Sure, it's (thick) cardboard, so a degu could certainly break through unsupervised, but it wouldn't be an issue for shorter supervised sessions where they're likely intrested in each other. The boxes are pretty tall so nobody should be able to jump out (I know that degus jump pretty high, but these are taller), and I could actually make a pretty large pen out of them. The upside is that it can be folded away when not in use as well
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Post by teemu on Apr 24, 2021 10:29:42 GMT
Pulla seems to be slowly growing less nervous about the pups. There's been fewer nervous screaming situations, and I've been able to test Pulla's reaction to the pups when the pups don't react back by carefully lifting him up to look at them from behind the bars when they're sleeping on a suitable spot. When the pups are sleeping and don't start vocalizing or otherwise interacting with him, he's content to just smell and observe them. No aggression at all. So obviously he doesn't hate them outright. He just seems to lose his cool really fast if he's unsure about what the pups will do. I'm wondering whether it'd be easier for him to deal with them when there's no bars between them. Seems like the bars hinder any kind of interaction quite a bit. I think I'll observe him over the weekend and see how they keep reacting to each other, and next week I'll look into a possible new introduction. The girls, meanwhile, are growing braver by the day. Posso (the blue one) is obviously the scaredy one of the group and also often hangs out by herself (she does sleep with the others and does interact with them, but often she's not intrested in the same things as the others) but Limppu and Suti are very active and curious about the world outside the cage. Limppu especially really wants to climb on people - and I've already had to rescue her twice from the floor (She hasn't fallen all the way fortunately, there are things in the way so she just kinda slides down to the ground). Suti seems to follow Limppu most of the time in things, and is in many ways more hyperactive but also less brave. Limppu also continues to be growly and bold. I offered them sunflower seeds the other day to get Posso some hand interaction as well, and Limppu jumped on top of them to hog everything and started growl and scream something fierce when I lifted her off. No fear in that one!
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Post by deguconvert on Apr 24, 2021 20:53:16 GMT
If you can engineer the cardboard playpen so that it would also accommodate you in there . . . you can be part of the intros much more effectively. ALSO, we have found that when we sit or lay on the floor in the area that we let the degus play, they love to play ON us, which makes getting to know them much faster and the bond much stronger.
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Post by moletteuk on Apr 26, 2021 10:59:29 GMT
Sounds like decent progress
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Post by teemu on Apr 27, 2021 19:27:20 GMT
Plans have slowed down a bit due to my health situation. I might be ill with something that might be contractable by degus (as most probably know), so I haven't done any new introductions yet. I've maintained their cages next to each other and I've kept bathing them in the same sand, and Pulla seems to have calmed down a lot about the girls and doesn't get those screaming fits any more.
I'll be getting tested for salmonella on thursday (that's the only realistic potential danger here, and I really need to get the test since it can infect others for a long time after the symptoms vanish), and I will get results either on friday or monday. If everything is fine, I'll proceed with the intros either during the weekend or after - provided they don't suddenly start fighting horribly or something.
Thinking about future arrangements, how should moving Pulla to the girls' cage be done (if/when we get that far)? Should I clean the cage well beforehand or insert Pulla into a space that smells strongly of the girls? I know that a thorough cleaning disrupts social arrangements (the girls start to have small scuffles even after a casual cleaning already), but there is no Pulla smell at all in the cage right now. Won't it feel like he's an intruder, even if he has their smell on him?
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Post by deguconvert on Apr 28, 2021 18:26:01 GMT
If you are exchanging substrates between their cages, there should be some of his smell in there . . . unless you don't keep substrate on all the surfaces?
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Post by teemu on Apr 28, 2021 19:05:19 GMT
I keep substrate only on the bottom layer. The rest are wooden layers where the substrate would simply get quickly thrown around. Although I suppose I could add some of Pulla's substrate to those levels as well, just to add his smell to them.
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Post by moletteuk on Apr 29, 2021 9:36:45 GMT
Do they have nests made of shredded paper or kitchen or toilet paper? That would be really good for swapping small amounts.
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Post by teemu on Apr 29, 2021 10:00:09 GMT
The girls don't seem to really understand toilet paper nests yet. They just nibble on the paper a bit before throwing it away. They prefer the snugglesafe cover I gave them over all other nests Pulla absolutely adores toilet paper though. He'll need to show the girls how paper works.
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