sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Jul 19, 2019 16:33:18 GMT
Hi guys,
I adopted 3 Degu brothers in January they will be 1 in August, 2 of them Peanut and Twix have been squabbling on and off since I had them but nothing to be concerned about but since last sunday it seemed to get abit more serious. It was almost like twix and the other brother basil were bullying peanut, they kept going for him constantly when he came out of hiding and he spent most of sunday night hiding in his hammock, not eating or drinking and squeaking after theyd attack him but at the same time not backing down one bit. They have a big three tier cage and plenty of toys they have their own room that they run around at play time either 1 or 2 hours a day. I came home from work on monday to peanut with a bloody eye and mouth and some fur missing. I removed him from the cage and the other 2 were still going for him even out of the cage, Peanut was clinging to me and clearly scared and injured so I decided to seperate them and take him to the vets which resulted in him having eye drops for an infection. They didnt offer much other advice though apart from having them castrated (which i have read doesnt really alter the agressive behaviour) I have Peanut in one cage and twix (aggressive one) and basil in the other cage who mostly get on. I have the cages next to each other so they can still see and hear each other. I also swap their bedding around daily so they dont lose each others scents. However there still seems to be alot of hostility between them through the bars and their behaviour is different with me also, I know degus hold grudges and its only been 5 days but am i doing the right thing keeping them like this? and will it calm down eventually? Any tips or ideas would be much appreciated
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 19, 2019 17:11:55 GMT
Hi Sooz, welcome to the forum, sorry it's in difficult circumstances.
Firstly, you did the right thing taking Peanut out of the dangerous situation, these decisions aren't easy.
Next, some questions. Can you tell us exactly what cage you have or the dimensions? Age is a likely factor in your boys fighting, but cage size is very often involved too. We recommend a minimum surface area equivalent to three layers at 100x50cm. Do you know if Twix is the boss, and Peanut the lowest ranked, or has Peanut been challenging to be boss? Have you seen any triggers for the fighting, eg around playtime or when they go back in, or any items in the cage?
Sometimes if it is squabbling that has got out of hand it can be a good idea to isolate the aggresive one and move them right away from the others so they contemplate what happens when they don't play nice, that's the theory. If you tried this do you think Peanut and Basil would get along?
Essentially, you need them to calm down, so while we talk this over I would suggest moving the cages a bit further apart until they start to go about their business in a more normal way.
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Jul 19, 2019 21:35:49 GMT
Hiya,
Thank you for replying. This is a link to the cage i got them
Its a bird cage but I converted it into a degu cage with shelves and put fleece over the ladders and a wooden floor to cover the plastic base, i'll attach a picture of it after converted. They are usually really good they dont fight over food or even treats, they dont fight over toys but Twix does tend to hog them and think they are just his so i usually get three of everything he is very territorial though. They dont squabble over anything specific it was out of the blue and came as a bit of a shock. I'd say Twix is deffo the boss, he is the more dominant of the three and Peanut has always been the one left out. Peanut annd Twix are equal weight but peanut is a bit of a pansy to be honest but also really stubborn. They had a fight in March where Twix bit the tip of Peanuts ear off but after that they went back to normal and always snuggled together at night regardless of fighting during the day.I put that down to the season though. I have just moved the cages further apart, I think Basil and Peanut could get along and that was something i was gonna ask if i could let basil spend time with both of them by doing swaps? I may try re-introducing them without Twix and see how it goes as today Twix made Basils ear bleed so I think really he needs to be the one to have some time alone, i dont want Basil getting hurt aswell. Please let me know what you think. Thank you
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 20, 2019 17:27:13 GMT
Sorry, I've been out today and we are short on people here at the moment.
Looking at the cage I think space could be an issue, technically the cage doesn't have the length we would normally recommend, you do have a fair amount of volume there, but you need more running surface area. What are you like at DIY, do you think you could fit some full area shelves in there? Ideally you need to add two or preferably three full size shelves in there. Degus are all about running space, they do much better with maximum floor area rather than volume. Something to think about anyway.
I think I would try a little meet between Peanut and Basil, but I do need to warn you that Twix may then smell peanut on Basil and there may then be aggro between those two. It may help if you can get Basil to sand bath before he sees Twix again. I think it is worth swapping them round and isolating Twix and putting Peanut with Basil if it looks like that might work, although Twix probably won't now associate it with his bad behaviour now.
Your other option is to keep Peanut further away until everyone calms down and then start moving them closer again.
Something else to bear in mind is using your voice to shout and tell them off for bad behaviour and try to occupy top goo status.
What I was getting at with some of the questions is trying to see whether Peanut is being ejected from the group (bad) or if it is youthful high jinks squabbling and age related dominance fighting (not so bad) or territorial issues can be a separate thing or an element to regular dominance fighting.
Does anyone else have anything to add or any other ideas?
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Jul 20, 2019 19:28:26 GMT
No problem....Oh d**n
I saw that other people had used this cage also so i assumed it would be fine. We put the other shelves in ourselves so wouldnt be a problem adding some more full length ones in.
Yeah thats my only worry that Basil and Twix will start having problems I dont want them to start fighting badly, I dont have a third cage if that were to happen either. They have been abit calmer today since being further apart and were behaving abit more normally and interacting with me again during playtime which was a relief!
Oh trust me I have shouted at them especially Twix haha Thanks for your help
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 20, 2019 20:29:22 GMT
We recommend 100cm min length but we say OK to the Liberta Explorer style at 96cm which is a popular option. For three degus you are aiming for a minimum of three shelves of 100x50cm or equivalent surface area. If you check out the cage section of the forum you will find a materials guide and info on adding shelves.
Glad to hear they have calmed down a bit. Since this has worked quite well, I think I would be inclined to wait until they seem fully calm and then move the cages closer again and see if they stay calm, if they do, try an intro in the playpen or even more neutral space. If you then got aggro but Peanut and Basil seemed OK then try an isolation of Twix. If an intro goes well, try to keep it fairly short rather than stopping it after it starts to go wrong.
If you want to let BAsil and Peanut have a little meet up, if you sandbath Basil after I wouldn't expect instant catastrophic fighting between Basil and Twix especially if you do it in the playpen rather than in Peanuts cage. I suppose it depends how lonely Peanut seems and how keen you are to find out how they might be with each other. Up to you.
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Jul 27, 2019 9:56:41 GMT
Okay thanks will check out the materials or may just purchase a new cage this week.
They had calmed down abit for first 2 days but have gone back to being really obsessed about getting to each other’s cages. Peanut doesn’t seem lonely just angry now, he makes noises at me if I come to the cage and starts throwing his toys around in a strop if I get the other 2 out first but I’m trying to make it fair. He’s making noises I’ve never heard him use before he’s not normally as vocal as the other 2. The couple of times tho that peanut has managed to get to basil and twixs cage he just starts chattering at them and the other 2 get then get wound up and start bickering so I’ve had to try and block them from each other’s cages during playtime. It’s been abit of a nightmare!! 😅
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 27, 2019 16:37:49 GMT
Figuring out their body language and what the noises mean and how they are feeling should really help you find a way forward, so keep watching. I'm wondering if Peanut is keen to be reunited with the other two, and maybe Basil is willing but Twix is getting mad at Basil showing interest in Peanut.
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Jul 27, 2019 19:39:06 GMT
I think thats exactly what’s happening. Peanut is not himself he just wants to get out of the cage 24/7, he is the most affectionate towards me normally out of the 3 but he just grunts at me now! He’s okay once out though. It almost sounded like he was calling them earlier and basil is responding then twix gets mad at him, if this continues may be worth a little meet between the two without twix around
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 28, 2019 9:40:18 GMT
I'm not really sure what to advise at this point, our main fighting expert is away just now, does anyone else have any suggestions?
If Twix's plan has been to permanently eject Peanut from the group, then as things stand I think it is going to be difficult to get him to accept Peanut again. If Basil will tolerate Peanut, then potentially you could still do the switch and get those two together and have Twix on his own to learn that aggression means isolation, but there are risks to trying that.
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Jul 28, 2019 12:04:39 GMT
Well I tried a little meet with basil and peanut in the sand bath today with twix in a different room. It didn’t go too bad but not great either. They sniffed each other abit then basils tail started wagging and he had a little nip at peanut who ran off, basil chased him through a couple of tubes but it wasn’t too worrying just maybe abit soon. After that I cleaned peanut out and he had absolutely no interest in getting to the other twos cage...they are so confusing! Yeah it does sound risky tbh so if anyone has ideas I’m all ears
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 28, 2019 18:19:00 GMT
Well, I suppose that gives us a little more information. Was Twix alright with Basil afterwards?
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Jul 28, 2019 19:24:48 GMT
Yeah twix was fine it was very brief and I got basil to sand bath after, Peanut seems unhappy again this evening though going close to their cage at playtime, he was chattering with his hair up all puffy. He just seems really frustrated bless him
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 29, 2019 7:59:48 GMT
Hello, Sooz, and welcome to the forum!! I'm so sorry to hear about the difficulties you are having. This is not uncommon, nor it is easy to move through, but it can be done!! I see two significant factors that you are dealing with; First, the cumulative surface area in your cage, which from your photo appears to be lacking seriously enough that it is greatly augmenting the natural aggression that come of the second thing, the age range of all your boys, which puts them right smack dab in the middle of adolescence/young adulthood and high hormones. This means they are in fierce competition to be dominant/top degu in their colony, because that position gets all the mating rights, best/first food and . . . well . . . all the things degus think are best. LOL! Have you choosen to get a new cage, or are you going to work with the one that you showed us above? I've been running the numbers from the dimensions given for that cage, and you would have to have five complete levels of 77 X 46 (77 cm X 46 cm = 3542 cm sq. 3542 cm sq X 4 complete levels the same size is 14,168 cumulative cm sq. but is below the minimum of 15,000 cumulative cm sq. that we recommend for three degus.), and that might not be very easy to accomplish in this cage. The doors would make it quite difficult I am thinking. Which will cause you no end of frustration when cleaning or trying to access any area that is far from the center . I originally started with a cage very much like this one, and did my darnedest to work with it for about two years, even purchasing and second one just like it and frankensteining them together. It was not fun! Putting in more levels now would certainly help a lot . . . but it will not be an easy cage to work with long term. What kind of space do you have for a cage in your home? Are you limited to locations you can have a cage and how big the cage can be? Can you afford to look at a different cage? Are you OK with DIY, or do you have friends or family members that are good with DIY? Whatever you do, just know that increasing their surface space will make a massive impact on your degus. The second issue, as you know, is their age. This is something that will take a fair amount of time to settle and improve. This stage often lasts up until age 18 months, and in some goes up to the age of two years. We will do our best to help you with this!! Have you read through our introductions and fighting guides? deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17619/deguconverts-detailed-introductions-fighting-guide deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17618/introductions-fighting-quick-guideHave a read through these . . . they discuss the different stages of fighting, the things you may see, and will help you to know what you are seeing. Like the tail wagging for instance . . . which is a sign of great excitement or of great agitation or aggression. Lastly . . . what is the size (dimensions) of the cage that you are keeping Peanut in while he is separated from the others?
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Jul 29, 2019 10:37:57 GMT
Hi thank you! and thank you for the reply. Unfortunately I had to put Peanut in a standard thicket cage form Pets at home (which is what the 3 of them came in) im aware it is way too small for him but was all i had at the time, so I can see why hes pissed off with me hes probably wondering why hes been punished and put in that tiny cage. I do feel awful but at the time because of his eye injury and lack of eating i was doing it for his best interest
Me, my sister and her fella (DIY GUY) had a look at the cage over the weekend and agree that it will be diffiicult to fit wood in the cage and remove it for cleaning, so i was thinking that perhaps the best move would to be buy a new cage for Twix and Basil but one that would be suitable for 3 degus in the long term when hopefully Peanut can join them, im willing to do all i can to get them back together again and then i was thinking Peanut could have the old cage to himself but we would still add a couple of extra shelves for running space for him, and i could also then keep it as a back up cage if i ever needed to seperate them again in the future, what do you think? I know its not the best cage but Peanut would defintely be happier in that i think than the current cage.
There cages are currently in the spare room, its just the cages and a wardrobe so a bigger/longer cage wouldnt be a problem. Ive found that during playtime that if i wheel the boys out the room in the big cage it relieves tension and Peanut will interact with me like before and come on my shoulder and sit with me, so that might be the way forward for a while.
Do you have any recommendations for better cages suitable for 3 degus with adequete floor space? I have around £200 atm for a cage and would ideally like to purchase this week if possible but worried to pick the wrong thing again. I could probably afford more if i left it a few weeks mind. Also if you have any recommendations for cages that they cant bar ping that would be fab too LOL as Twix drives me crazy with his bar twanging
I have read through the introductions and fighting guides its been an eye opener to say the least but Im learning everyday and think i have an idea of there body languge and moods now. I appreciate you guys helping me so much
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Jul 29, 2019 11:12:43 GMT
This one is recommended by a few people on facebook Degu MANIA group
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 29, 2019 16:50:10 GMT
That's the style of cage we normally recommend. You would probably want to extend the half shelves into full shelves, but that should be fairly straightforward as these cages have good access (note there are various makes Liberta,Aventura,etc, some have double doors, some single). Your other option is a Royal Suite XL which is better because it is longer, but it's not very good value because the shelves are plastic, so you potentially have to replace all the shelves with metal or wood.
You other option would be a wooden self build which would solve your bar pinging problem.
Interesting that Peanut is himself when you remove the others. That suggests to me that he is either angry at or scared of the others all the time they are there.
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 29, 2019 16:53:31 GMT
If you are thinking of investing in a new cage, it might be a bit soon for me to ask this, but have you given any thought to worst case scenario of not being able to get Peanut back with the Twix and Basil? Whether you might want to persevere with a more prolonged side by side but separate arrangement in the hopes of it working out, or if you would consider neutering and introducing a female, or another solo boy? I don't want to overly concern you at this early stage, but I wanted to mention it in case it affects your cage purchase choice.
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Jul 29, 2019 17:39:14 GMT
ok cool, yeah was thinking extend the half shelves for full. Would love a wooden self built but would have to wait a lot longer to have it made by my friend, I will probably use mesh if he can ping on the new one that usually stops him. I think Im going to keep them sperate in the same room whilst living in my current apartment and see how it goes in the hope of getting them back together, seeing as its only been 2 weeks and im hoping the new cages will distract them and cheer peanut up abit being back in his old cage. I think he is angry from what I can tell because he only got puffy and chattering when he found one of their droppings on the floor or smelt one of their scents on a tube. He will go out of his way to get to their cage when they are in the room and climb up it so im unsure if he would do that if he was scared or maybe he knows their is a barrier between them? or maybe hes like "hey thats my cage!" lol
I am a bit skeptical about them accepting him back into the group so I would consider him a new friend in the long term as I dont want him to be a lone goo and I am worried hes already lonely but that would probably be next year when i move into a bigger house and the pairs could have separate rooms then and i'd upgrade Peanuts cage to a larger one also and prey that he got on with his new friend haha
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 29, 2019 20:19:00 GMT
If you were to use the current large cage for Peanut, and you were to lay it on its side and put one extra long complete level in it (of course with access leading to the added level), as well as covering the side which would then become the floor level, you would meet the minimum size for two degus, should you choose to get him a mate of his own in the future. The difficulty is in getting that large piece of wood in there . . . so . . . if you look at that cage, is there any way to separate the front panel from the rest of the cage and then re affix it once you have the new level securely placed? This would give a nice long length to run in, and it would allow you to be certain the new level is safely secured and will not drop. I have tried to examine the photos of the cage on the website for the cage, but I cannot get a really clear idea of whether or not it can be successfully pulled apart and put back together at all.
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