sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Jul 29, 2019 20:40:12 GMT
That’s actually a really cool idea! my sisters boyfried is a builder/handy man, he built my tortoise enclosure from scratch and it’s amazing so he could definitely dismantle it and attach new secure shelves and base should I chose to get him a house mate in the future in the mean time if I keep it upright and add peanut some new full shelves and extra running space do you think that would be ok for him until I have a clearer idea what I need to do?
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Jul 30, 2019 10:12:14 GMT
Quick update.... did a little meet with basil and peanut again in the sand bath this morning as they were both calm, they sniffed each other for a while then peanut suddenly flying drop kicked basil and they nearly got into a ball so I separated them. Now all 3 are pissed off. Think I’m gonna cool it on the meets and leave it a good few weeks till all the cages are sorted properly
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 30, 2019 14:22:55 GMT
I think the cage will be OK for just Peanut the normal way up with some extra full shelves for the short term (btw replace the ladder ramps while you are doing adaptions, if they slip on those they can break a leg). Yes, I would let them all fully calm down for a while now too.
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Jul 30, 2019 15:06:28 GMT
Ahh that’s an old picture...I’ve covered the ladders in fleece now so they can’t get paws stuck in it thank you
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Aug 15, 2019 14:00:55 GMT
Hello again
So ive been busy sorting out the cages the past couple of weeks. Peanut is now back in the original cage on his own except we have added two full shelves (tried to upload pics but too large in size) he seems alot happier being able to run around and being back in his old cage. Twix and Basil are in the new larger cage where we have extended the half shelves to full shelves and they have a lot more floor space and can get away from each other easier in it, however they are already fighting over who is king of the new cage. I did kind of expect this with them being the dominant two. They have been fighting off and on for the last 4 days now, nothing too serious and no injuries of yet but neither seem to be backing down and they keep urinating on each other alot and I am starting to worry that its going to escalate. However they do still sleep together and groom each other after the fighting and its nowhere near as bad as how they attacked Peanut so I am letting it run its course but keeping a close eye. My main issue now is usually at playtime, the cages are next to each other in the play room with a gap between so they can see each other, they tend to just chew the bars at each other when they are all in their cages but not too bothered about each others presence. However when i let Basil and Twix out Peanut will start screeching and becomes angry throwing toys about and ripping his bedding up. Twix and Basil tend to ignore him as they are currently obsessed with each other and chasing each other around the room. Then when its Peanuts turn for playtime he will frantically run about trying his hardest to get up to the other boys cage, even though he cant get to the cage they can hear and see him trying. This then started a fight between Basil and Twix this morning, they even ignored their morninng treat which is weird for them and Peanut is not eating as much as he used to either although it is improving slowly. I guess im wondering if i should increase the gap between the cages or go back to wheeling the cages out of the room seperately at playtime just to keep it calm whilst Basil and Twix are sorting out their differences as Im not sure the Peanut situation is helping, or do i leave the set ups as it is and give them time to adjust as they have had a lot of changes this month. Also Peanut has started being more affectionate to me grooming my eyebrows and letting me stroke under his chin and lifting his arm for belly scratches which he had never let me do before, does this mean he is becoming lonely? Sorry for the long essay just trying to give as much information so I can get the best advice.
Thanks in advance
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 15, 2019 14:55:23 GMT
The aggressions are likely still dominance related. Being just one year of age now, they are still in the depths of adolescence/into young adulthood, which will continue until around 18 months age, sometimes longer. They are going to be determined to figure out who is top degu, and the frustration you see in Peanut is the same mechanism working in him . . . except he can't get to the other two to make his bid. Degus also have a long memory for grudges and offences, so that may be working in him as well. As difficult as it is, and believe me . . . I know it is so so hard . . . you are going to be seeing this for a while. If you have hopes to bring all three together again, you will have a bit of a road ahead of you, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. I started with three males, two fought like Tasmanian devils, I separated them, and I worked for 8 months on getting them back together. They DID get back together in the end, but the thing that helped to cement them into a stable and very contented group was when I had enough and became top degu. I literally would not let them get away with anything so far as bad temper with each other. That meant I had to stay near to be right on top of things. It worked. If I heard a growl, I shouted, "NO!" If they kicked off, I ran to the cage, shouted "NO!" and slapped the side of the cage. If they ignored me, I shouted more, sometimes slapped the cage again. This is at the end of the 8 months. By then, they were considerably older and past the 18 months age. But until I insisted that I was top degu and instituted "degu martial law," letting nothing slip (for about 2-4 weeks) they would not settle.
Peanut looking for grooming attention from you, and giving you grooming attention IS likely the result of feeling lonely, and very much missing degu contact.
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Aug 15, 2019 15:58:45 GMT
Im kind of unsure at the moment what I want to do, I know that if i did get them back together eventually its a long way off and cant be rushed. Im going to be starting a new job next month where im out most the day 3 times a week, so i do worry about Peanut getting lonlier as he will have less attention from me and plus a human will never be able to replace an actual goo. I have thought about getting him a little rehomed friend but not sure its good timing with his age and how he is at the moment? and of course that runs the risk of them not getting on, then im stuck with 2 lone goos's. I have started to shout at them and bang on the cage..my neighbours must thing im crazy LOL they do ignore me when they are really going for it but this last couple of days ive reached the end of my teather and have literally slapped the cage as hard as i could shouting NO and they slowly seem to be listening to me and learning what that word actually means! I live alone though so i do worry about what they will get upto whilst im out and what i could be coming home to. I think its just a waiting game and hopefully it will become clear what will be best for them in the long term, in the mean time think ill just do as you recommend and try become top goo
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 15, 2019 18:19:44 GMT
I think you would be right to take steps to stop them winding each other up during out of cage time. What you describe sounds like it is having a definite negative effect so I would wheel the other cage out if you need to, or maybe you could divide up the room or wrap the opposite cage in thick cardboard during playtime so they are separated off at that time. I don't think 3 daytimes a week without you sounds so bad, I think that should be manageable depending on how introductions were to go, I think you could schedule meets around that and put them apart again if you were in doubt. You can also set up cameras that can be monitored via a phone if that would help. I think for a plan B, if it were me I would probably only consider getting another single degu with the help of rescue centre who might be able to allow you to take Peanut along to see if he looked like he might get along with any of their degus. That can be quite hard to arrange though. Since Peanut is young and healthy, I would personally think about having him neutered and getting him a girlfriend as an alternative, if you can find a trustworthy and experienced vet. Great work with the top goo activity
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Aug 15, 2019 20:25:07 GMT
Well tonight I took it in turns to wheel the cages out and it made so much difference they were like totally different goos back to their normal personalities. Twix and Basil didnt fight during playtime for first time in ages aswell (although now squabbling back inside the cage lol) its a pain in the backside but worth doing if playtime is more fun for everyone.
Yeah its not too bad because even after my day at work id make sure they still had time for a run about when i get home, and half the month ill be on night shifts so that probably wont even effect their routine much. Yeah true im always gonna keep Peanuts cage as a back up anyway from now on just incase.
Yeah thats the issue I would want to do meets first and not too sure how trustworthy and reliable rehoming pages are or if anbody would be willing to accomodate that. We have a couple of exotic vets in Birmingham that are recommended on the Degu Mania page for neutering, would his behaviour be different to a female then? and would the female need to be younger than Peanut?
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Post by misscatafer on Aug 16, 2019 9:15:15 GMT
Just to jump in here, I had my male neutered with manor vets in Birmingham when he was 2 years old. It was successful and I had no concerns. I would reccommend them and would go to them again if needed. I then paired him with a 5 year old female, and they still happily live together now 2 years on.
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Aug 16, 2019 11:06:12 GMT
Manor vets is the place that was recommended on Degu Mania, thanks for confirming this! Glad it all worked out for you also
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 16, 2019 11:11:08 GMT
Age doesn't seem to matter with male to female intros. The chances of success of a male to female intro are vastly improved over male to male.
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Aug 16, 2019 11:15:23 GMT
Okay that’s good to know and something to think about, thank you
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Aug 23, 2019 19:47:59 GMT
Hi guys, So things have gotten abit worse lately with twix and basil last week they had a fight whilst I was at work and when I checked them over they had bitten each other under the chin and twix had a cut lip, at this point though they were cuddling and tending to each other’s wounds and it seemed like they had worked things out and apparently Basil seems to be the new boss. They were quiet for a few days then the last three days they were ok in the cage apart from a few squabbles but as soon as it’s playtime they would start boxing, pushing, kicking and chattering at each other whole time so i put them back in. Last night during playtime it seemed like it was escalating so I tried putting a cardboard tube between them resulting in twix biting my finger because they didn’t want to go back in the cage. This morning same thing kicking, boxing and chasing each other but it resulted in basil getting his ear cut. However half an hour later they were on the heatpad together. Tonight I got them out for playtime, teeth chattering hair raising straight away then they started chasing and it turned nasty really quickly and they were locking trying to bite each other than suddenly basil darted across the room (I was nowhere near them at this point) and bit my toe really hard. He took me by surprise and I ended up flinging him to get him off my toe, after he was laying on the ground trying to come to me feeling sorry for himself. Again playtime was cut short I put them back and basil kept harassing twix and trying to bite at his face and generally being aggressive so they now have a tile in the cage separating them. I feel like I am completely out of my depth with them and don’t know what to do with them
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 23, 2019 22:13:20 GMT
OK, this is fairly easy temporary fix - stop doing playtime for a bit. It sounds like Twix has conceded to defeat to Basil over the cage territory, but not over the playtime territory. This can happen sometimes, even to steady groups. Wait and get everyone calmed and remove the tile when you think they are ready to be friends within the cage. Let them be like that for a good while until they seem more settled. Next step would then be to start off with a really small play area, and if that goes OK gradually increase the size of the play area. Change of dominance between Basil and Twix may have significance for Peanut's reintroduction, but don't worry about that for now. How are your wounds? A bitten toe sounds eye watering! Be sure to give them a good soak in dettol. The boys will need time to calm down so take some time yourself to rest and recharge mentally. It will be OK. Do check in with us here as often as you like, particularly when things are escalating or not going to plan, moral support comes free with the degu wrangling advice
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Aug 23, 2019 22:46:54 GMT
okay i will leave playtime tomorrow and see how they are inside the cage, I did actually remove the tile after an hour and they continued to do the same Twix squeaking and running away and Basil chasing him to the point that they knackered themselves out. They are now lying together and Basil is grooming Twix and cuddling him I did notice a cut under Twix's chin where its bleeding though.... I'm guessing it happened at playtime just before Basil went for me as they did connect briefly and thats when Twix's behaviour changed and he seems pretty defeated and mopey. I feel like I missed the mark to seperate them as they are now cuddled up but i genuinely couldnt see the wound till he lay on his side otherwise i would have left them overnight for sure. Ive put powder on Twix's chin (it doesnt look too bad) and removed the sandbath and they have settled down for bedtime together. I will hear if theres any drama in the night as im right next to their room so can step in! My toe is okay was throbbing abit at first was just more of a shock than anything, deffo wont be doing playtime bare footed again LOL. Peanut was abit unsettled about what was occurring in the other cage but apart from that hes doing really well at the moment so thats good Haha thank you i appreciate your help so much!
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Aug 23, 2019 23:25:11 GMT
Oh also I’ve still been swapping peanuts and twix/basils bedding and heat pads around daily so they can still smell each other should I continue this or stop for now as I won’t be introducing for a while I don’t think and maybe peanuts scent is adding to the upset in the other boys cage?
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 24, 2019 18:00:27 GMT
This is such a difficult stage to be in and I feel for you! Though I had hoped that the new larger cage would be more calming to them, it is also expected that dominance will continue to be an issue for a while . . . or until there is complete acceptance of who is top degu. Basil dashing across the room to chomp on your toe . . . OUCH! . . . and keep an eye on that as he may be thinking to take you on and dominate you as well.
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sooz
Newborn Degu
Posts: 23
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Post by sooz on Aug 24, 2019 22:03:00 GMT
yeah it is really difficult i hoped so much this wouldnt happen. I thought the cage and new tic tac wheel would distract them but unfortunately not. Oh he was definately challenging me! but after I flung him (by accident) and told him off for biting me he was kind of cowering on the floor and trying to crawl over to me so hopefully hes learnt from that. I ended up seperating them again this morning as Twix got a cut nose, Basil cut by his eye and i noticed Twix has a nail hanging off i assume hes caught it while Basil was chasing him. They have been okay Twix has been abit mopey and Basil hasnt seemed bothered all day, in the last few hours though hes been trying to push the tile up to get into the top cage, he wont as its weighted down but hes giving it a good go. I know its not ideal having a horizontal split as Twix is on top and Basil is in the bottom of the cage so there may be some upset with it seeming like Twix is the boss as hes on top but unfortunately side by side is not an option at the moment. I was thinkiing of putting a small piece of mesh over the space that connects the cage but making sure its secure, it has 1cm gaps so they wouldnt be able to bite each other just see and smell each other rather than just hear each other. Does that sound like a good idea?
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Post by yasmin on Aug 25, 2019 3:32:01 GMT
In the past I had to separate a cage of girls - all related (Mom and four daughters) – with three in the top half and two in the bottom half (also because that was the only way I could do it) and had no problem re-introducing them.
Also had to do this with a cage of boys. The ones in the top half of the cage did not show dominance over the ones in the bottom half. In fact, the bottom half boys continued their dominanting behaviour.
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