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Post by cheese27 on Oct 15, 2018 7:52:02 GMT
My degus have been fighting this morning, and both are bleeding under the chin & paws.
I have separated them, and will be taking them to the vets when they open!
They’re both boys, Peppa & George!
Less than a year old, about 10months.
They have the odd boxing fight & mount eachother, but have never fought like this, and their boxing never lasts long.
They curl up and nap together everyday, so I thought they were fine!
They have two water bottles & two bowls, they have done from day one.
One wheel & plenty of things to chew on & play with!
Everyday I replace the wood shavings on the bottom of their cage with fresh, remove all the poo, fresh water etc.
Then once a week I take everything out & give it a good clean & rearrange their cage around.
After I do this they seem generally happy- they’re quiet for ages, exploring & eating he treats I lay around for them!
I just need some advice on what to do now?
I don’t even know what caused their fighting!
(My husband took their wheel out lastnight & put it back in this morning, if that makes a difference?)
I am looking into getting a bigger cage, but this hasn’t been a problem with them so far?
I’ve had them since they were 10 weeks old & this is the first time I’ve had a problem.
Please help me!
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Post by misscatafer on Oct 15, 2018 8:59:07 GMT
Welcome! What cage are they in? Have you had a look on here at the cage recommendations? Read this: deguworld.proboards.com/thread/9396/forums-cage-size-recommendationsAnd get some inspiration here: deguworld.proboards.com/thread/6918/show-cageIt sounds like you are aware they need a bigger cage, so this will be a good place to begin to ease the unrest in the cage. Degus need lots of space! They have a lot of energy to burn off and need lots of stimulus to keep them occupied. At 10 months old, they are in the adolescent phase where fighting is very common due to extra hormones, so it is essential to make sure they have enough space to get away from eachother when needed. They will become adults around at 18 months, so you may have a lot more of this to come yet. Removing the wheel may also have upset them, degus do not like change and the smallest change can cause unrest. Because they were restricted of it, they then fought over it when they were it was reintroduced, why was the wheel removed? It's always best to have two wheels in the cage, as it is a common item to squabble over and ensures both are getting enough exercise. I also think your cleaning routine may be setting things off. Degus rely heavily on scent marking - if you are clearing out all the substrate daily, you are essentially 'resetting' the markings and homeliness of the cage, as well as causing them to be unsure who owns what etc. I personally go around 4-5 weeks between cage cleans. A lot of people here clean out small sections at a time as opposed to the entire cage weekly. When you are cleaning out you should keep some dirty substrate aside and then sprinkle this back around the cage to maintain the familiar scents. There is no need to be cleaning them out so much. Make sure you remove the sand bath now that there are open wounds, and don't put this back in until everything is healed - sand in cuts can be painful and lead to infection. Good luck at the vets, degus are hardy and usually bites look a lot worse than they are, they will bounce back I'm sure  |
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Post by cheese27 on Oct 15, 2018 9:09:08 GMT
Oooh ok I didn’t realise I was cleaning them too much!
Do you think I’m still ok to remove the wood shavings everyday?
I only do this because they poo so much! I just thought it can’t be too nice for them walking around in it.
I never remove all the hay from their bed- just one handful out and one in!
I’m glad they probably look worse than they are, my poor George is looking sorry for himself, and hasn’t gone on
the wheel in the last couple of hours.
He removed the wheel because they moved it & it was knocking when they ran, and we were going to bed.
I’ll not do that again!
I will look into cages online today, it’s just a space issue in my house, but I’m going to see what I can do!
I don’t know the specific measurements of mine right now, it’s just the one they recommended when I bought them home!
I also have two cats, do you think that would cause them to fight at all?
The cats generally leave them alone, sometimes they sit by the cage, but Peppa & George don’t seem bothered by them, they just carry on as normal, and sometimes try to sniff the cats!
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Post by cheese27 on Oct 15, 2018 9:34:50 GMT
Any advice on how long I should keep them separate for?
It’s been two hours, I just let them on the floor together- they sniffed eachother and started fighting again!
I don’t have two cages, I have a large plastic box I put them from when I bought them home, so one has been in there!
It has their toys/ food etc in.
One is squeaking, the other is quiet.
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Post by savvy on Oct 15, 2018 9:36:24 GMT
Welcome to the forum! I'd echo what misscatafer said, they are in the teenage phase where hormones run riot and they will be fighting more in this phase. You said that they are in the cage that was recommended when you got them? Could this be by pets at home by any chance? If so, that cage is way too small for degus. I would look at getting either the adventura www.littlepetwarehouse.co.uk/products/metal-aventura-huge-metal-rat-ferret-chinchilla-cage.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlbSjxZCI3gIVA7DtCh12rQkuEAQYASABEgLywPD_BwE or similar (sorry I can't find the link to the Liberta cage) which can be adapted by adding more levels etc. With regards to the wheel, have you looked at www.tictacwheels.co.uk as they are very sturdy wheels, but also silent apart from little paws running on them. I certainly wouldn't clean everyday, they do poo a lot, but they also need to eat some of their poo to keep their gut flora healthy. Try spot cleaning the worst areas by just taking out the substrate in the toilet areas and replacing that, which would leave their scent markers in place. When they are in a bigger cage though, you will notice the mess less. As long as both are supervised, they should be fine with the cats, just make sure the cats can't get paws through the bars to get to them. My degus used to grab my cat by the tail when she walked passed. |
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Post by ntg on Oct 15, 2018 11:32:52 GMT
Haven't got much more to add than what miss catafer and savvy have said but the liberta explorer is difficult to get ahold of for a decent price these days. As I'm firmly in the camp of the double opening doors being the best thing since sliced bread, pet planet do their own version of the explorer cage: m.petplanet.co.uk/p28577/rat_and_ferret_cage_by_petplanet.aspxAs for the fighting, it can be the time of year as well as the other stressors mentioned as we do notice an increase in aggression over autumn/winter which some people like to call "breeding season". Degus are wonderfully frustrating creatures at times  |
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Post by winic1 on Oct 15, 2018 13:09:47 GMT
If you wish to remove the poo every day, rather than remove and change all the wood shavings, lift and toss them (like a salad) so that the poo falls to the bottom, then return as much of the shavings as you can back to the cage, and mix in only enough fresh stuff to keep the level you need. Wipe up pee spots, but don't scrub them clean, you want to leave their "markings" so the places smell familiar. If you feel it's at the point where it must have a deep clean, only do half the cage at a time, so at least half of it still smells like home to them. And always keep a few handfuls of the old shavings to scatter back across the top of new areas to make it smell familiar.
To stop a shifting, knocking wheel, we mounted ours to a piece of board. We used plastic board so that pee couldn't soak in, and you cut the piece and mount the wheel so that the size of the board keeps the wheel from being able to touch anything no matter how it shifts. (So the board is bigger than the wheel, so if the board shifts against a wall, the wheel is still held out an inch or so, and can't bump against anything.)
If their cage is too small, especially now that they are reaching adulthood, they are going to feel crowded and that will lead to more fights than in a bigger cage, tho adolescents will still do some fighting no matter how much space they have. What I did when it was getting out of hand, was take a squirt bottle of water and shoot them with a stream of water while loudly snarling "NO!" (they usually fought at 2 am, so I was really in a mood, sorry), and keep at it until they gave up. This sometimes meant sitting there for quite a few minutes, repeating this, as they'd run away but then keep trying to come back at each other, and as soon as one tried to make his move I'd shoot at him (right in front of him if I could) and shout No! and basically just kept them separate until they gave up. Now, getting degus wet is not a great thing to do (we keep our house rather warm, so the chance of them getting dangerously chilled was smaller) but it would be 2 am and I was desperate after this repeated many nights, and this may not work for everyone, so it's an idea to use very cautiously if at all. Once I had them separated, I was squirting to keep them apart, not to get them wetter, so instead the cage was getting wet, and the wall behind it, usually, unfortunately. But maybe there is something they don't like, a loud noise, blowing at them with a hair dryer (not too hot, tho!), something besides water that will give them a very negative association with fighting, and get them separated in the cage until they get over the immediate fight? After a while, it got so I could just shout that snarling No! at them and they would run away and hide, expecting me to come at them with the bottle.
Also, do they have two separate food bowls, placed as far apart as possible, two water bottles, two of anything they value? Having to share a food bowl and other resources can start fights. Even tho they will both eat from both bowls, it's being able to eat without another right there, threatening your survival by eating your food, that can set them off. Also, as they have gotten bigger, have you been sure to increase the amount of food that they get, so that they don't feel like survival is threatened? Animals who eat all of their food and have to wait for more are more likely to fight over it than animals that always have an excess of food around.
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Post by cheese27 on Oct 15, 2018 13:32:40 GMT
Thank you for your replies!
I only managed to take one to the vet, as I have one
carrier & they fought again!
I got a bleeding hand trying to split them up.
So I just took George who was worse off bless him!
She did say it was ‘breeding season’ and that may be part of what happened.
She said I have to keep them separate & slowly reintroduce them, mix the bedding etc!
I’ll also research more on this too, I just need a break for
today!
I’m 8 months pregnant & I have a toddler-
I need my degus to get on right now!!
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Post by savvy on Oct 15, 2018 13:36:18 GMT
Please, please make sure you treat the bite to your hand! Degus bites can be very nasty if left.
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Post by cheese27 on Oct 15, 2018 13:37:23 GMT
Thank you for your replies! I only managed to take one to the vet, as I have one carrier & they fought again! I got a bleeding hand trying to split them up. So I just took George who was worse off bless him! She did say it was ‘breeding season’ and that may be part of what happened. She said I have to keep them separate & slowly reintroduce them, mix the bedding etc! I’ll also research more on this too, I just need a break for today! I’m 8 months pregnant & I have a toddler- I need my degus to get on right now!! Thank you for your advice! They’ve had two food bowls, and two water bottles from the beginning. They actually eat from separate bowls too! They have plenty of food, as there’s always some left when I go to top it up! The cage doesn’t have space for two wheels, but when I get a bigger cage, I’ll get two definitely. I genuinely didn’t know about the cleaning! I hope I haven’t caused their stress, I’ll just do a little at a time from now on, thank you! |
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Post by misscatafer on Oct 15, 2018 16:52:07 GMT
Ouch, bites are so nasty aren't they! How do you plan to keep them separate? Make sure they are level with eachother so they can see one another and know that they are 'equals', even if you have to keep the cages far apart at first then bring them back together slowly.
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 15, 2018 18:29:36 GMT
Hello Cheese27, and welcome to the forum! You are not in an unfamiliar situation. Unfamiliar would be owners with degus between the ages of 6-18 months that DON'T fight, LOL! They are contesting with each other for the position of dominant degu . . . because that position has all the benefits, naturally. LOL! It is a highly coveted position, and sometimes the fighting can go on for months. It is not unusual for us to encourage owners in your situation to consider "taking" the position of dominant degu/top degu. Much like being a parent in many ways. You absolutely refuse to allow them to fight in a violent and threatening manner. deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17619/deguconverts-detailed-introductions-fighting-guide That link will take you to a guide that describes the different stages of a fight, what is normal relationship building, what is annoyed, what is angry, and what is dangerous. You may have LOTS of opportunity in the months ahead to learn them intimately as you watch and work with your two lads. Do not be afraid to loudly say "no" to them, nor to make a loud noise with your hand on a nearby surface. I'll say, don't hit the cage, since you have a toddler that will be watching and mimicking all that you do with the degus. You won't want to have your small one hitting the cage after seeing you do it. You may not want to have a water spray bottle available for a small child to use on the degus/into the cage, on the cats, or wherever either. So . . . we may have to get a little creative in our suggestions, or you may have ideas that pop in and will work well. Please don't by shy to ask any questions, to voice your frustrations/thoughts/or whatever your feelings with where things are in the degu situation. We have all been there. Most of us were directed toward a cage that was much to small. Most of us advised to do or follow many practices that just aren't appropriate with degus. Rest assured, we will understand where you are, and will do all we can to help. Our forum has a boatload of information that will help you to understand your degus and will help you to better manage their housing, diet, relations amongst themselves (well, so far as humans can at least) and their bonding with you. (Just realize, degus are not touchy feely animals . . . cuddly is NOT a common description for degus.) Learning about our degus usually involves a very steep learning curve . . . but it is well worth it. All boards have stickies threads that are permanently fixed so that they can be found and are locked so as to keep the information uncluttered. DO read as you are able, and ask any and all questions that arise. For your hand . . . please soak it in warm water that you have dissolved some Epsom salts into. If you don't have epsom salts, salt and or baking soda will work as well. Degu bites can very quickly become very infected, swollen and painful. You need to take care of your hand. You can do this several times over the next day or three, especially if you do so redness or swelling, stiffening, or increased pain. |
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Post by cheese27 on Oct 15, 2018 19:55:48 GMT
Thank you so much for all your advice, I really appreciate it & I'm glad I found this place!
Who knew degus where so bloody complex?!
I have separated them for tonight, I bought a small cage after visiting he vet and getting some advice on reintroducing them.
The cage is like a large hamster cage- so nowhere near suitable for long term!
I’ve put some bedding from their normal cage, as well as ‘old’ wood shavings, food, water & toys.
Peppa is doing ok in there, I’ve let him out for a run a few times before he went to sleep.
The cages are next to eachother, they were sniffing eachother & making little noises, I’m guessing this was a good thing?
George also laid as close to Peppa as he could get, before going into his bed properly.
I’m guessing that’s good too?
I’m thinking of trying them together at some point tomorrow?
They’ve never slept apart, and usually snuggle together, so I’m hoping the separation has helped them out!
I have the pets at home recommended cage, and after looking around the forum & pics of the cages you guys have- I can see they’d be much happier in a bigger one!
How frustrating that they don’t tell you this!
We struggle for space, but I’ve got to figure something out.
I have hit the worktop with my hand on a few occasions when they would fight but without actually injuring eachother, so I will continue to do that.
Thank you for the advice for my hand, I wasn’t sure if it was a bite or scratch, but it’s red and painful, and I have Epsom salts! So I’ll get on that tomorrow too!
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Post by ntg on Oct 15, 2018 20:31:15 GMT
Where do you have them at the moment? On top of a piece of furniture or on the floor? I'm just thinking about your space dilemma, and it's one that a lot of people have, but if we know more about it then we may be able to come up with a creative solution between us. The signs of them beside each other seems positive, generally bad signs would be teeth chattering, biting bars obsessively, tail wagging, launching at the bars etc as you want them to be as calm as possible with each other before the intros happen. Do you have a neutral space set out that you can use as a meeting spot for them? Some people use bath tubs, others a degu-proof room or playpen. Each have their advantages and disadvantages such as bath tubs are small so easy to catch them/intervene if the demons start fighting but at the same time some people report that they sometimes spend more time trying to escape than they do interacting with each other. It's just something for you to think about for when the time comes to do meetings. |
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Post by cheese27 on Oct 16, 2018 5:57:13 GMT
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Post by cheese27 on Oct 16, 2018 6:02:55 GMT
I’m also thinking I can degu proof a section of my kitchen floor for them to meet,
Throw some of their toys in there, maybe some treats?
And see what happens?
If they get on, does that mean I can put them back into their cage?
I’ll mix the wood shavings from both...
I just don’t want to keep them separate for too long, as the other cage really isn’t suitable- it doesn’t even have space for a wheel!
So I think the longer he’s in there, the more stressed he’s going to get.
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Post by misscatafer on Oct 16, 2018 6:48:11 GMT
Morning, no, that is the same cage you showed us yesterday, it is much much too small. To put it in perspective, this is the size you need: www.littlepetwarehouse.co.uk/products/metal-aventura-huge-metal-rat-ferret-chinchilla-cage.htmlOr: www.elmpets.co.uk/liberta-explorer-cage-p-11011.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjw9ZDeBRD9ARIsAMbAmoY9fYrvYEWnpJBBoiUoklHDXKo_QEJ735Q88GYbRHBWySNQX9cnxMQaAlcFEALw_wcBWe are talking very large cages unfortunately, wish pets at home would make that clear to people. But for yourself, a cheaper option would be to find a second hand pets at home thickets cage (which is what you already have) and then stack them. You can find them on second hand sites and Facebook being given away for free or very cheap (probably because people buy them under the same circumstances you did, being mis sold by pets at home staff as suitable for degus when they clearly are not). My cage was too small too when I started out, it's a common problem to encounter and I used to over clean too! I overcame my small cage by buying a second one of the same kind and combining them together. If you want to give us a location idea we could help you look for a cage? The kitchen idea would work. I would equip yourself with a water spray bottle and wear oven gloves to protect yourself from bites in case you need to separate. The interactions through the bars have been positive which is a really good sign. How are they behaving this morning? Like toddlers, sometimes a bit of 'time out' works well for them so fingers crossed the meetings are positive today. Another option to consider : if your husband is handy and built that cabinet, could he custom build a cage for them? |
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Post by cheese27 on Oct 16, 2018 8:21:29 GMT
Ok I have seen the same cage I already have for sale somewhere,
How would I combine them?
Yes he said he could build them something, it’s just not something he can get done in the next few days,
I told him to look on here for some inspiration and ideas.
Ah also wish Pets at home would be more helpful!
It would save so many people buying twice!
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Post by misscatafer on Oct 16, 2018 8:41:47 GMT
People tend to cut a hole in the bottom of the second one and then add some extra shelving. I think a couple of people on here have cages modified that way, can't remember who though. Best thing to do would be to get the two thickets cages put together temporarily and buy a second wheel, then maybe you and your hubby can look at creating a custom built cage which would suit the space you have |
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Post by ntg on Oct 16, 2018 9:22:16 GMT
This thread might help as to "how" deguworld.proboards.com/thread/9409/thickets-house-extension-advice-neededFor the intros, I wouldn't put them together if the first meet is successful, I'd do at least a few of them to see if they're always positive and just slowly build up the time that they are together before putting them in the cage and then only put them in the cage when you are around the whole day to keep an eye on things. As for the kitchen, it'll work Just make sure there's no small gaps they can squeeze through as that's how we thought we'd lost a hamster once upon a time! As for the toys, I'd be tempted to start without any food or toys in there that they might start guarding and then slowly add some items in if they're doing okay. Edit: If you don't want to/can't cut the trays for whatever reason then you can either get custom metal ones from paul spooner or make one from sheet wood instead! www.paulspoonerchinchillas.co.uk/cages.html |
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