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Post by degumatt on Aug 31, 2017 14:41:03 GMT
Okay so I've got 5 degus in a set of 3 and a set of 2 now my end goal is to get them playing nice together however the alphas of each group certainly don't like each other all the rest seem happy with each other it's just the 2 alphas squeaking / general aggressive behaviour towards each other through the cages. Any advice on how to get one of them to back down? Is the only solution to let them fight it out physically?
Some points:
- both degus are roughly the same size (174g to 179g)
- they havnt had physical contract yet only through the different cages
- I've been swapping the degus around every 3 days so they can get the scents using same sand baths etc cages
- current set up is both cages faceing each other about 3-4 inches apart
[
ALSO ALL ARE FEMALES
Also should for the actual face to face no barrier meeting should I be doing group on group or alpha vs alpha or what? (First time doing this)
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Post by ntg on Aug 31, 2017 16:22:49 GMT
Hi Matt, could you give us a bit more info to help us tailor our advice to you please? I'll ask a few questions for you to answer so sorry in advance if it sounds like the Spanish Inquisition  How old are your degus? What is their current cage set up? Are they side by side? On top of each other? What's the interaction area like (you can add a photo if you like to help explain it to us)? How long have you had both groups for? And, if different, how long is it since you put the cages together? From the sounds of things, they aren't ready for a meet yet, you want to see no aggression towards each other before you even think of trying a face to face. Don't be disheartened though, intros can take a lot of time!  |
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 31, 2017 17:32:12 GMT
Ditto!
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Post by zenaida on Aug 31, 2017 19:18:03 GMT
Sorry, did you say you're swapping the degus? Like you are changing which cage they are in every 3 days? Moving them from cage to cage can make them feel insecure and territorial and might be increasing their distrust of the other group. You are correct that the scent is very important to promote bonding, so instead it is better to swap dirty bedding and the used sand bath. Usually for the bedding you can just sprinkle a few handfuls across the floor.
I also agree that it is best to share about their cage set up and history. Pictures are usually best/easiest.
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Post by degumatt on Aug 31, 2017 22:09:27 GMT
Okay some extra info for you guys! Fudge and Mario was the first set I bought the pet shop said they was about 12 weeks old, we've had them for about 2-3 months and only recently bought the new 3 (cookie, badger and pepperoni) the pet shop when we bought them said they was about 4 months old so basically I estimate fudge and Mario are 6 months old vs the newbies at 4 months but this could be totally wrong! The current cage set up is facing each other with about a 3-4 inch gap between the wires of the cages. I had been swapping the cages but from now on I'll be leaving it out! It's just so strange because the only aggression is between the 2 alphas! Also when the time comes is it best to introduce 1 to 1 or group to group or 1 to group etc etc PS - I'll get some pictures later but it's the P@H recommended ones x2 (I'll be doing DIY eventually to create a cage) and they spent plenty of time running around my girlfriends room to her delight PSS I know Mario isn't a girls name but I like it! 😂 |
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Post by savvy on Aug 31, 2017 22:29:16 GMT
OK. The extra info is useful, thanks.
I would suggest that instead of swapping the cages (degus hate change and even moving their cage can really upset them), try swapping a handful of substrate between the cages. This way they just get the scents, not the movement.
Also, the ages of your degus puts the older group into the adolescent stage, this can last until they are about 18months. Think hormonal, stroppy teenagers and you won't be far wrong.
Introductions can take months! Sometimes even years! I've been in the introduction process for about 10 months now ano I'm only just about to attempt a face to face meeting.
The cage. Pets at home are notorious for recommending the cage you have, it's called a thickets and isn't big enough for a hamster, let alone degu groups. I would suggest take a look at our cage size recommendations before you begin your DIY build so you can get an idea of how big the cages need to be. But its good they are getting plenty of exercise out of the cages.
On a final note. If you got any of your degus from pets at home, they could be wrongly sexed, please check that they are all girls. If you can get photos, we can help you to sex them correctly. There have been quite a few on this forum who have had unexpected pregnancies thanks to pets at home not sexing degus properly.
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 31, 2017 22:40:06 GMT
WOW! So . . . you have five females, all about the 5 to 6 months (ish) age, which you would like to introduce. Something that is crucial to know is the size of cage you hope to incorporate them all into. Can you tell us please the dimensions of the cage, or if you plan to join the current two together, and how many complete (full sized) levels are in each? You need a fair bit of space for 5 goos to live together, and it will be especially important for keeping the bond strong, and the tempers calm during the the next 18 months, depending on how quickly this goes forward for you. Degus have a long adolescent/young adult period where they have rampant hormonal levels and the drive to be dominant degu. Dominance is highly sought after and ambitions can run high, which means the aggressions can also run high, in both male and female sexes. This time frame is anywhere from age 5 months (if they start a bit early) and upwards of 18 months of age. So your degus are in the beginning stages and this can be a chaotic time for them and for you. Females are usually slightly less intense, some even lots less intense, than males tend to be . . . but don't let your guard down, as there are females that are as bad or worse than males at this stage. Introductions need to be done slowly, carefully, with great attention (learning to read their body language is VERY helpful) and patience, and determination. Some will only take a couple or few months. The rare few will be a couple or few weeks. Lots will be months and months, upwards of years for those owners that have the determination to keep trying every so often. Ready for the challenge? I suggest that you read through our introductions and fighting guides as they can help you to understand what you are seeing. What is normal, what is acceptable, what must be stopped immediately. Here you go . . . deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17619/deguconverts-detailed-introductions-fighting-guide . And here is another . . . deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17618/introductions-fighting-quick-guide . Intros are not easy, and we encourage you to discuss here with us, so that we can lend thoughts, ideas, advice, or just simply cheer you on. Lots of us here have been through intros, and we are glad to help you out! I love the name Mario! |
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Post by degumatt on Sept 1, 2017 9:16:06 GMT
WOW! So . . . you have five females, all about the 5 to 6 months (ish) age, which you would like to introduce. Something that is crucial to know is the size of cage you hope to incorporate them all into. Can you tell us please the dimensions of the cage, or if you plan to join the current two together, and how many complete (full sized) levels are in each? You need a fair bit of space for 5 goos to live together, and it will be especially important for keeping the bond strong, and the tempers calm during the the next 18 months, depending on how quickly this goes forward for you. Degus have a long adolescent/young adult period where they have rampant hormonal levels and the drive to be dominant degu. Dominance is highly sought after and ambitions can run high, which means the aggressions can also run high, in both male and female sexes. This time frame is anywhere from age 5 months (if they start a bit early) and upwards of 18 months of age. So your degus are in the beginning stages and this can be a chaotic time for them and for you. Females are usually slightly less intense, some even lots less intense, than males tend to be . . . but don't let your guard down, as there are females that are as bad or worse than males at this stage. Introductions need to be done slowly, carefully, with great attention (learning to read their body language is VERY helpful) and patience, and determination. Some will only take a couple or few months. The rare few will be a couple or few weeks. Lots will be months and months, upwards of years for those owners that have the determination to keep trying every so often. Ready for the challenge? I suggest that you read through our introductions and fighting guides as they can help you to understand what you are seeing. What is normal, what is acceptable, what must be stopped immediately. Here you go . . . deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17619/deguconverts-detailed-introductions-fighting-guide . And here is another . . . deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17618/introductions-fighting-quick-guide . Intros are not easy, and we encourage you to discuss here with us, so that we can lend thoughts, ideas, advice, or just simply cheer you on. Lots of us here have been through intros, and we are glad to help you out! I love the name Mario! First off thank you for your time! First things first the cage they will all be in will be the 2 cages I have currently but I'm Going to basically do a lot of DIY to make a very large cage proberblt somewhere along the lines of 6ft high and about 4ft wide with various levels (in thinking 3) but for now since they are showing a lot of aggression towards each other they will remain in current cages please not I do let them all out every single day for minimum of about an hour. I'll get them sexed tonight and if I'm unsure on any I'll be sure to ask for help! (I remember once I bought a rabbit and the p@h lady couldn't determine the sex because it's bits was too fluffy!) and I'm Sure they will learn to love each other eventually as the 3 other degus don't really care it's just cookie and fudge always super interested in each other. Also I find it abit strange how fudge is the dominant degu over Mario as Mario is 13g heavier than fudge which is approaching the 10% larger! Maybe fudge was just a better boxer in the early days |
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Post by degumatt on Sept 1, 2017 9:27:31 GMT
OK. The extra info is useful, thanks. I would suggest that instead of swapping the cages (degus hate change and even moving their cage can really upset them), try swapping a handful of substrate between the cages. This way they just get the scents, not the movement. Also, the ages of your degus puts the older group into the adolescent stage, this can last until they are about 18months. Think hormonal, stroppy teenagers and you won't be far wrong. Introductions can take months! Sometimes even years! I've been in the introduction process for about 10 months now ano I'm only just about to attempt a face to face meeting. The cage. Pets at home are notorious for recommending the cage you have, it's called a thickets and isn't big enough for a hamster, let alone degu groups. I would suggest take a look at our cage size recommendations before you begin your DIY build so you can get an idea of how big the cages need to be. But its good they are getting plenty of exercise out of the cages. On a final note. If you got any of your degus from pets at home, they could be wrongly sexed, please check that they are all girls. If you can get photos, we can help you to sex them correctly. There have been quite a few on this forum who have had unexpected pregnancies thanks to pets at home not sexing degus properly. Hey please not I'm Not planning on adding all 5 to that small cage! When they are getting along better I'll be combining and adding to make a mega cage! Also will be sexing them tonight and you can all meet them all via pictures! Thanks for your reply, I'll be stopping swapping the cages right away |
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Post by zenaida on Sept 1, 2017 12:14:20 GMT
It isn't terribly uncommon that only the dominant degus are bickering. It is sort of like since the cage has an established hierarchy, the subordinate ones are just trusting the dominant one to "deal with" the intruder. If Cookie and Fudge are spending most of their time trying to bite the bars and get at each other, you might try spacing the cages a little further apart for now. It could help cool the tension. It is awesome to hear that you are already planning their more permanent accommodations. Don't let their fighting hold you back from getting started on it. Often more space goes a long way to calming frazzled degu nerves. Sometimes when the space is too small, they won't fight with their cagemate, but will be out for blood with anybody else just in case the "new guy wants to move in". Say you were to build that DIY cage now, you can put in a double mesh divider and give each party about 1/2 the space. This would probably significantly help them "get along" sooner. The divider can be made so it is removable when they are ready to be together full time. In the bigger space, they would be more comfortable and you wouldn't be dealing with two cages. I know first hand that building a cage is a major undertaking, but don't wait for them, there would be an initial spike with the move in to a new home, but they should settle more quickly if they are given appropriate space. A few months back I did a build about the same size you are talking about. I have 6 girls in it. According to our space recommendations they are a bit "tight" in there, but I had been planning on 4 and these 6 were bonded and I didn't want to break that up!  My build: deguworld.proboards.com/thread/21159/zenaidas-enclosure-buildSpace recommendations: deguworld.proboards.com/thread/9396/forums-cage-size-recommendations |
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Post by winic1 on Sept 1, 2017 12:33:54 GMT
Hey please not I'm Not planning on adding all 5 to that small cage! When they are getting along better I'll be combining and adding to make a mega cage! Also will be sexing them tonight and you can all meet them all via pictures! Thanks for your reply, I'll be stopping swapping the cages right away It may sound like we are obsessed with larger cages, but there is a very good reason, so it's not that we are intending to be picking on you, sorry if it seems that way. When degus are kept in a too-small cage, it's equivalent to wild degus living in an area where there aren't enough resources available to support them--not enough food, not enough water, maybe even not enough protection from the predators around them. A very stressful situation for a small animal--will we be able to eat? will we be able to find something to drink? will I get eaten by a hawk or a snake or a fox as I leave the den to try and find something to eat or drink? So, life feels like they are right on the edge of survival, even tho in a cage they get enough food and water, the situation still feels on the edge of desperate, because should the least little thing happen, they cannot leave to go find better conditions. They may recognize that you provide food and water for them, but you also go away for hours at a time. They have no way of knowing that you will always come back and provide for them. You might just never come back some day, and then what will they do in their tiny territory without enough resources, that they cannot leave? Instinct will not let them get away from this thought. THEN another group moves in, right next door, threatening their already too small, edge of survival, desperate situation. Of course they are going to try to drive the other group away. Of course they are going to be aggressive to each other, they cannot risk their survival by welcoming more mouths to feed, more waste to pile up and signal their presence to predators, to pollute their territory, that they cannot leave. This is also why sometimes the existing groups fall apart and start fighting. Here they are, on the edge of survival in a tiny territory, now newcomers are threatening, and we can't seem to drive them away, so maybe I'd just better drive one or both of you away to make my chances better than they are now. And then instead of two groups, you end up with three or four or five singles. Your best chance for getting five degus together is to make that huge cage now. If it is six feet tall, you can put five to six levels in it, degus are ground squirrels, not tree-climbers, so more floor space is best. While recommended level height is about 30cm, you need a taller space for a proper sized wheel, so you can make one or two shorter levels (20cm) to gain that space, and the degus seem to like the closer spaces for huts and dens. With your giant DIY cage, with 5-6 levels, you can build it with a divider in place (removable for the future) and give the one group 3 or so levels, and the pair 2 or so levels, with the divider splitting off at least a small portion of a level so they can meet face to face, not one group above another (which generates hierarchy and dominance problems). With less stress about their living conditions, they should be much more willing to befriend other degus, and after a while the divider can come down and you may have that happy group of 5 girls living well together. But it is just very unlikely to occur while they are stressed about cramped living conditions. Pets at Home should be forbidden from selling those cages that they do. But until that happens, we just do our best to counteract their terrible advice and improve things for the degus. |
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Post by degumatt on Sept 1, 2017 14:52:52 GMT
Hey please not I'm Not planning on adding all 5 to that small cage! When they are getting along better I'll be combining and adding to make a mega cage! Also will be sexing them tonight and you can all meet them all via pictures! Thanks for your reply, I'll be stopping swapping the cages right away It may sound like we are obsessed with larger cages, but there is a very good reason, so it's not that we are intending to be picking on you, sorry if it seems that way. When degus are kept in a too-small cage, it's equivalent to wild degus living in an area where there aren't enough resources available to support them--not enough food, not enough water, maybe even not enough protection from the predators around them. A very stressful situation for a small animal--will we be able to eat? will we be able to find something to drink? will I get eaten by a hawk or a snake or a fox as I leave the den to try and find something to eat or drink? So, life feels like they are right on the edge of survival, even tho in a cage they get enough food and water, the situation still feels on the edge of desperate, because should the least little thing happen, they cannot leave to go find better conditions. They may recognize that you provide food and water for them, but you also go away for hours at a time. They have no way of knowing that you will always come back and provide for them. You might just never come back some day, and then what will they do in their tiny territory without enough resources, that they cannot leave? Instinct will not let them get away from this thought. THEN another group moves in, right next door, threatening their already too small, edge of survival, desperate situation. Of course they are going to try to drive the other group away. Of course they are going to be aggressive to each other, they cannot risk their survival by welcoming more mouths to feed, more waste to pile up and signal their presence to predators, to pollute their territory, that they cannot leave. This is also why sometimes the existing groups fall apart and start fighting. Here they are, on the edge of survival in a tiny territory, now newcomers are threatening, and we can't seem to drive them away, so maybe I'd just better drive one or both of you away to make my chances better than they are now. And then instead of two groups, you end up with three or four or five singles. Your best chance for getting five degus together is to make that huge cage now. If it is six feet tall, you can put five to six levels in it, degus are ground squirrels, not tree-climbers, so more floor space is best. While recommended level height is about 30cm, you need a taller space for a proper sized wheel, so you can make one or two shorter levels (20cm) to gain that space, and the degus seem to like the closer spaces for huts and dens. With your giant DIY cage, with 5-6 levels, you can build it with a divider in place (removable for the future) and give the one group 3 or so levels, and the pair 2 or so levels, with the divider splitting off at least a small portion of a level so they can meet face to face, not one group above another (which generates hierarchy and dominance problems). With less stress about their living conditions, they should be much more willing to befriend other degus, and after a while the divider can come down and you may have that happy group of 5 girls living well together. But it is just very unlikely to occur while they are stressed about cramped living conditions. Pets at Home should be forbidden from selling those cages that they do. But until that happens, we just do our best to counteract their terrible advice and improve things for the degus. I feel so bad about these cages now  I'll get building my own one asap thinking. Of using glass and wood - with the wood obviously not being able to be bitten eg nothing they can get their mouths around |
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Post by winic1 on Sept 1, 2017 15:23:27 GMT
There is so much information on building your own cage available on this site, and plenty of people to help you out with advice. Look at Zenaida's link to her build, she included lots of how-to's as she follows her entire build. Also, just go to our Housing section: deguworld.proboards.com/board/1/cages-housing-accessoriesthe top several posts are stickies with all kinds of advice on materials, the building, features, problems, etc. Members here are glad to offer evaluations of plans and suggestions on builds. Probably best to start a new thread to keep it easy for people to notice and reply to. Don't beat yourself up over their current cages. PAH tells you they're fine, they sell them to everybody, and they're dead wrong and very irresponsible to do so, but they don't care. Now you know better, and you're going to do the very good thing of improving your degus' homes. You will see such a difference in their behaviors when they get into a bigger place! They go from acting like caged pets to acting like real degus! It's wonderful. (Also, a word of caution: while you can find many pictures and much information on degu cages/homes on the 'net, the Degutopia site that pops up so readily has not been updated significantly in several years, so the information there is not current at all anymore, tho it was excellent back in the day...) |
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Post by savvy on Sept 1, 2017 15:31:02 GMT
OK. The extra info is useful, thanks. I would suggest that instead of swapping the cages (degus hate change and even moving their cage can really upset them), try swapping a handful of substrate between the cages. This way they just get the scents, not the movement. Also, the ages of your degus puts the older group into the adolescent stage, this can last until they are about 18months. Think hormonal, stroppy teenagers and you won't be far wrong. Introductions can take months! Sometimes even years! I've been in the introduction process for about 10 months now ano I'm only just about to attempt a face to face meeting. The cage. Pets at home are notorious for recommending the cage you have, it's called a thickets and isn't big enough for a hamster, let alone degu groups. I would suggest take a look at our cage size recommendations before you begin your DIY build so you can get an idea of how big the cages need to be. But its good they are getting plenty of exercise out of the cages. On a final note. If you got any of your degus from pets at home, they could be wrongly sexed, please check that they are all girls. If you can get photos, we can help you to sex them correctly. There have been quite a few on this forum who have had unexpected pregnancies thanks to pets at home not sexing degus properly. Hey please not I'm Not planning on adding all 5 to that small cage! When they are getting along better I'll be combining and adding to make a mega cage! Also will be sexing them tonight and you can all meet them all via pictures! Thanks for your reply, I'll be stopping swapping the cages right away I wasn't having a go at you degumatt, I was having a go at pets at home and the really bad advice they constantly give out. Apologies if I came across this way. As has been said, they right cage is vital. But please don't feel bad about the cage, it's pets at home who are at fault, and there are loads of people who have been mis sold these cages, myself included. |
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Post by degumatt on Sept 2, 2017 8:33:07 GMT
Hey please not I'm Not planning on adding all 5 to that small cage! When they are getting along better I'll be combining and adding to make a mega cage! Also will be sexing them tonight and you can all meet them all via pictures! Thanks for your reply, I'll be stopping swapping the cages right away I wasn't having a go at you degumatt, I was having a go at pets at home and the really bad advice they constantly give out. Apologies if I came across this way. As has been said, they right cage is vital. Â But please don't feel bad about the cage, it's pets at home who are at fault, and there are loads of people who have been mis sold these cages, myself included. I know I know! I'm grateful for all this help: an update they seemed to have calmed down quite a lot? Also starting my cage next week and all the degus have been sexed and are all females |
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 2, 2017 19:06:25 GMT
What a blessing! They are all the same sex!! That's good news, as is your plan to start on a cage. Have you a plan drawn out, or do you have it all figured in your head?
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Post by degumatt on Sept 2, 2017 20:13:32 GMT
What a blessing! They are all the same sex!! That's good news, as is your plan to start on a cage. Have you a plan drawn out, or do you have it all figured in your head? All drawn up what I've got written down is (6x3x2)ft with 2 levels (2x3x2)ft and (1x3x2)ft respectively all made with glass and plywood! Will be making it all over the next week or 2 I'll be sure to show pics! Lmk if I need to upscale the size |
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 2, 2017 23:51:30 GMT
Is there a need for the one level to be 1X3X2 or can you make it 2X3X2? Or does that have to do with the size of the plywood panels? And, just to be sure I'm on the same page, these levels are above the base of the cage so in total there would be three full surfaces if you count the base?
Are you incorporating venting for each level so that there is good air flow? The glass is the front portion of the cage . . . sliding doors?
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Post by zenaida on Sept 3, 2017 3:33:01 GMT
Another question, have you calculated the CARA that it is supposed to be? deguworld.proboards.com/thread/9396/forums-cage-size-recommendationsOff hand, it sounds like it is going to be about 18 square feet of running room. If my math is right that's about 2600 square inches which is only enough space for 2-3 degus, not 5. To make it big enough you really need to have at least one more level in there and I think that would put you close to the minimum for 5. You could do this by adjusting the heights of the levels. Two whole feet for a level is pretty generous, you can comfortably reduce to having two 1 foot levels and a the other levels more in the 1.5 foot height range. I'm assuming the "lost" foot in your measurements is for a storage space or something? Again, check out my build. I give the heights in cm at the top of the first post. The biggest level is something like 18 inches, and really that is plenty to fit a nice big wheel. You only really need one, maybe two levels to be that tall. The most important thing for them is the horizontal running space. Two of my levels are about 1 foot high each, there were times where it was a little tight to install things when I was building, but for normal use (cleaning, arranging, catching degus) that height has no problems. Also if you could manage to increase the dimensions for another foot of width, that would also make a huge difference and push you into the recommended size for 5 degus instead of the minimum size. Edit: the running space is really the most important thing for degus. That's what makes them feel like they have enough room to not be "in each other's space" and having the room will calm tensions so they don't fight. That's why it is important to get as much CARA as possible, especially if you are hoping to have a group of 5 by the end of this. |
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Post by moletteuk on Sept 3, 2017 12:55:17 GMT
For full flexibility I think it would be safest if you can make your build suitable for a group of 2 and a group of 3 complete with a meeting place for introductions, that way you have the best setup for doing an introduction but you haven't lost anything and there is no pressure if the introduction doesn't work out.
A group of 3 needs 3 levels of 100x50cm (are we OK in cm? 40x20") and a group of 2 need a minimum of 2.5 levels of 100x50cm. Also if you are building for yourself it is best to try to get the length up to 100 cm (3'4") or more if possible, so they can stretch their legs in a proper run. So I would suggest 6 levels of 100x50cm and the group of 2 gets 2.75 levels and the 3 get 3.25 levels with that one level split so they can meet face to face. Of course you could work something similar out with 4 or 5 levels if they were deeper or longer.
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I'll get building my own one asap thinking. Of using glass and wood - with the wood obviously not being able to be bitten eg nothing they can get their mouths around 
