M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93 
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Post by M&P on Aug 27, 2017 12:14:50 GMT
Me and my partner have had our degus for about a year now (2 boys; Merry and Pippin.) We got them from Pets at home and were told they were about eight weeks old but not sure on the validity of this as they were bigger than the other young degus there. They've always gotten along apart from when we first got them when we think Pippin claimed head degu from Merry and took over the cage. It was a dictatorship and Merry wasn't allowed to go anywhere or do anything. A few days after getting them Merry bit Pippin and stole back the head goo position and things were fine up until a few weeks ago. A few weeks ago I noticed that Merry had a very puffed up swollen cheek. After taking a look at it I thought it could be a bite from Pippin but because of the swelling we took him to the vets to be safe. (Took them both so they weren't separated.) Merry was so freaked out (he's a very senstive soul, we swear he has OCD) and it was the first time since we got them that they've been outside in the wide world. The vet was good. She examined him as much as she could (he was terrified and just cuddled into my arm.) She thought the same that it was probably a bite from Pippin and gave us antibiotics and a syringe to administer them. We were told to go back in a few days because if he didn't improve he'd need to be put under and examined. After getting back from the vets Merry went into a depression. This was made worse by us trying to give him antibiotics from the syringe which was a nightmare. Gave up on that and tried to give him the antibiotics on oats which he usually loves but soon gave up on that too and just stopped giving him antibiotics altogether after the second day. We kept our eyes on him and he gradually got better, the swelling going down and gained a bit of confidence back. I called and cancelled the second vets appointment because I didn't want to frighten him needlessly. The problem then came from Pippin. We think during the time of Merrys depression, or perhaps from the original bite that caused the swelling, Pippin has gained back the head degu title. Again with the dictatorship Merry was constantly chased and nipped and being such a sensitive boy and having a strong personality this caused the fur ball of death. They each got some bites from the other so me and my partner removed them from the cage and kept them separate on our hands for a while. We reintroduced them on our hands after ten minutes or so and they started tweeting and seemed okay with each other. We put them back into the cage and although tense they got on with life. This went on for about a week and then they started with the FBOD once more with more injuries. We put them once again on our hands and reintroduced them on our hands like before and Pippin bit Merrys hind. This made us finally make the decision to split the cage and separate them today.  We've been reading up today on reintroductions but had a few things we weren't sure about: 1. Should we keep them separate for playtime tonight or should we see what they are like together? Either way should we give them access to the outside of the others cage? We usually let them have access to the inside of the complete cage during playtime when they lived together which meant they could choose to go home if they preferred. 2. We will be swapping the substrate every day but wondered if we should swap toys. And if they respond well to this should we try swapping cages? Don't want to push this and make things worse. 3. We're going to see what they're like through the bars over the next few days but if they start getting along should we try introductions straight away? Also if they get on during the face to face meetings should we wait until the weekend to put them together? (Both me and my partner work long day shifts through the week. Usually we're out of the house from 8am until around 6pm. If we wait until the weekend we can keep an eye on them whilst they readjust to living together again.) Any help/ ideas would be really appreciated. Thank you! |
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Aug 27, 2017 18:40:02 GMT
UPDATE: We tried to get them to share playtime. We first brought a degu into our hands (one each) and let them meet face to face. They were fine, chirping to each other and kissing so we tried putting them onto the floor for playtime. They more or less immediately lunged for each other and we had to separate them.
We let Merry out first (he had access to his own cage and the bars of Pippins.) Pippin was so jealous he was biting the bars so much we thought he'd damage his teeth! We managed to distract him a little bit with some fresh hay with treats mixed in and then we put Merry home to let Pippin out. Merry was so jealous of Pippin he was squeaking at him every time we talked to him or he jumped on our knees. They both got about 30 minutes each.
Not sure where to go at this point. They didn't bite each other through the bars but they were tail wagging and teeth chattering. Do you think it would be best to keep playtime away from the cages?
They're both now back in the cages getting on with life. They still go to the bars to meet every so often and they bite the bars to get at each other while squeaking. They also bite the bars at opposite ends of the cage as well. Not sure they know what to do without each other, poor things!
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 27, 2017 19:53:42 GMT
I really think you need to give them time to settle down. I don't mean hours, nor do I mean a couple of days, I mean weeks. I wouldn't be surprised if you need a month or more. Being next to each other, they have the opportunity to see and have companionship . . . and they will not be hurt by this, but they will be hurt if you put them back together too soon. The fact that they have FBODed several times now indicates that it is not a freak one of, but a build up that is now a big issue between them. Also, because they are just over a year in age, whether at is 1 year and 8 weeks or 1 year and three months, they could still be experiencing late onset of dominance fighting that is very common at any time between the ages of 6 months and 18 months. So, you could be dealing with grudges as well as dominance troubles. This stuff takes time to work through for them.
I would not use your hands to introduce from. During my first very heated dominance battles between degus experience, I had two boys that loved to be on me and showed no aggression to me if I had been handling the other. So I though, OK, maybe I would be neutral ground for an intro. UH UH!!! The cuts, scratches, and nips I got as they rapidly chased each other over my body, through my clothing, and past my hands was all I needed to know I would never do that again. Don't do it!!
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Aug 27, 2017 21:07:25 GMT
Thanks for the advice. I'll give them plenty of time then but just keep them next to each other for company.
Should they be allowed up to the bars of each other's cage during playtime?
What do you think to swapping toys/ cages. Do you think it's too much too soon?
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Post by bouncy on Aug 27, 2017 22:19:12 GMT
Given the level of aggression, I would wait before starting that sort of thing. Trying to put them back together too soon could end up causing irreparable rifts and grudges. Just make sure the two cages have enough of a gap between that you're not going to wonder where your goo fingers are disappearing to  |
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 28, 2017 0:57:26 GMT
I would leave them as is for a while, just like Bouncy says. Give them a gap, and remember that tails can be bitten through the bars as well. In a weeks time, maybe then start some swapping of substrate but only the substrate. Maybe toys if you know they aren't territorial about them. Do that for a while, two or three weeks, and watch their behaviors toward each other between the bars. If you see and hear them giving sweet warbling and there is no tail wagging or teeth chattering, it MIGHT be OK to try a meet but I would wait to make sure you see consistent happy welcoming with each other over a few days before doing a face to face. If you still see aggression, even from just one, they aren't ready to meet yet.
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Post by winic1 on Aug 28, 2017 2:08:44 GMT
I would NOT let them climb the bars of the other's cage during playtime. The one inside the cage sees his enemy dominating his home that he is trapped inside and cannot defend. This will increase his feeling of aggression, as he will want to drive off the "attacker" but can't.
Also, if the one inside the cage tries, he can bite off toes or tail of the climber, or give a serious bite to any other body part he can reach at that moment.
Do you have a big cardboard box, or can you tape together pieces of cardboard to cover the cage of the one inside, while the other one is being let loose? That way, his cage cannot be climbed and he is protected from the free degu while he is trapped, as well as prevented from biting off toes of the other. Then when you switch who's in and who's out, switch the cover to the other cage to protect that one while inside and the second one is loose.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Aug 28, 2017 8:03:12 GMT
Do you have a big cardboard box, or can you tape together pieces of cardboard to cover the cage of the one inside, while the other one is being let loose? That way, his cage cannot be climbed and he is protected from the free degu while he is trapped, as well as prevented from biting off toes of the other. Then when you switch who's in and who's out, switch the cover to the other cage to protect that one while inside and the second one is loose. That's great advice, thank you. I was wondering how to block off the cages while still having access to their own. Also at the moment they are both obsessed with biting the bars. Probably from frustration at not being able to get to each other (also probably just to get to each other to resume the fight.) Should I try leaving a bigger gap between the cages or is this a normal thing at the start of separation? I think they also don't like having the cages on the floor. (The cage used to be on a platform with wheels.) I think it makes them feel more vulnerable but I only have the one set of wheels. It's tight for space where they are as well so don't know what else I could use. (A coffee table would be too big.) I'll have to have a think because I still want them to be level for socialising. Just watched pippin go up and bite the bars and when Merry went over he warbled to him. Then when Pippin gave up and went away Merry went mad and started biting the bars so more than aggression (which they do have) I think it's frustration. How can you tell the difference between aggression to each other and anger at being separated? They are both going at it now biting the bars and more than it being annoying it's just really hard to hear. To me it means they're not happy. Thank you all for your help!! It really does help to have advice from you guys. I really want to do this right and what's best for the degus. |
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Post by bouncy on Aug 28, 2017 11:38:43 GMT
The perfect scene would be for them to be sat pining next to each other, building their nests and sleeping next to each other in their cages. If not, then ignoring each other/disinterest is also promising. Re getting the cages off the floor, try a plastic storage box for the other or, as I resorted to, old university texts  |
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Post by winic1 on Aug 28, 2017 14:13:28 GMT
You could also use concrete blocks to raise them up.
What if you try putting a piece of cardboard or wood or something between the cages to block their view of each other--does that help them calm down, or does it make them escalate more, trying to get to the other?
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Aug 28, 2017 16:07:19 GMT
Does look as if they've been trying to sleep next to each other a little today. They do warble to each other through the bars a lot as well. It's all been good signs today so far. I'd rather let them have view of each other at the moment. So far they have been mostly sweet to each other and I don't want to take away their company of each other. It's only the bar biting which is even slightly aggressive and as I said I think that's more frustration than anything.   Playtime take 2 with barrier.   Poor Pippin is so mad he didn't get to come out first. (He's the one with the white spot on his head.) They're such confusing little animals. They keep looking at me as if to say 'why did you put us in separate cages?' as if I'm the crazy one! I'm just going to see how they do over the next few days. Fingers crossed!! |
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Aug 28, 2017 16:47:02 GMT
Now we've put Merry away and it's Pippins turn Merry is mad 🤣
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 28, 2017 17:21:24 GMT
Definitely lift them off the floor, using whatever you can, as it will help them. As for whether they see each other or not, we are only going on what is commonly found to help, but that is not always the same for all degus. So your observations are important, and the better you know your degus, the better will be your success in re-integrating them. It sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on things!
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Aug 28, 2017 18:09:07 GMT
They're definitely trying to sleep near each other. Yay!  Don't know if you can see but Pippin is behind the plant pot. |
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Post by bouncy on Aug 28, 2017 18:41:55 GMT
They're looking a little sorry for themselves, aren't they!
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Aug 28, 2017 19:55:23 GMT
Definitely feeling sorry for themselves.
I went to go turn the light out and Merry was sat on top of his house squealing for Pippin like I've never heard before. He sounded heartbroken ðŸ˜
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 28, 2017 22:14:13 GMT
Just be careful that they don't fool you . . . I think they are lonely because they are not face to face. I suspect a face to face right now would result in a FBOD.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Aug 30, 2017 8:17:32 GMT
Don't worry. I'm not going to attempt any introductions yet. I think it's only Merry which is lonely. He's taken to grooming us now (something he only did very rarely before) whereas Pippin is more interested in escaping the cage so he can scent everywhere!
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Sept 9, 2017 9:48:02 GMT
I just wanted to update about our degus in case anyone reading this has a similar issue.
We tried a reintroduction that ended in a ball but managed to separate them easy enough. No injurys, thankfully.
It's gotten to the point now where we've had to put a piece of card between the cages because Merry has been biting the bars so much both sides of his face blistered. The hair is growing back a little now as the cardboard has stopped this being quite so bad but they both still bite the bars quite a lot.
Will update again with anything significant. We're not going to be trying any more introductions now for a good few months (think they need to get over this adolescent faze) unless we see a radically change in behaviour.
We are finding it really difficult because we have to do everything separate with them and they get soooo jealous of each other! If I open one cage and not the other it causes a riot!
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Post by bouncy on Sept 9, 2017 10:05:45 GMT
Thanks for the update, and sorry things seem to be getting worse.
My thoughts right now? They've got another six months or so before they leave their overly hormonal period behind them. We're also moving into the winter months, where some owners experience increased aggression due to the natural mating season (even though they can be quite randy all year round). They can also hold grudges big time. To give yourself a good chance of getting them back together, I would stick with substrate swapping and cardboard barriers for the foreseeable. I know it's not what you want to hear.......
Has ANYTHING changed in your household or neighbourhood in the last month? Even the scent of a change in detergent is enough to spark territorial dispute. One member's goos kicked off when a neighbour was having roof work done, and another had a new puppy.
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