M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Sept 16, 2017 8:20:33 GMT
I just feel so bad for them. They're both so distressed. I tried removing the cardboard a little so there was a gap and the biting bars was immediate so the cardboard is staying firmly in place.
I can't think of anything that's changed but that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't anything. There's nothing that I've noticed.
Do you think I should keep substrate swapping? They're also sharing a playpen (one after the other) so they get the scent of each other from that.
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Post by moletteuk on Sept 16, 2017 17:18:46 GMT
I just wanted to mention that aggressive bar biting does not necessarily mean that they feel aggressively towards the other degu, the aggression might be focussed on the bars that are preventing them getting where they want to be. Or they could be mad with the bars and the other degu. Or the whole world. It does sounds like you have some jealousy and territory issues going on, I think I would prioritse keeping them calm. It might be good long term to keep swapping substrate, but it would also be valid to clean away all smells, not do playpen sharing, substrate sharing or sharing anything and keep cages blocked off as an experiment to see if you can 'reset' their mindset.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 16, 2017 19:17:46 GMT
Ditto. It may sound like we are offering too many possibilities, LOL, and I feel for you. There are so many things that sometimes drive degus to craziness and fighting. Figuring out which it is, and then what will turn it around is a challenge to be sure! Your boys, being still below the 18 month mark are still likely in the hormonal adolescent/young adult stage. It may take a good while yet, and that is going to be hard, but hang on. You and they can successfully get through this!! If they were struggling with a grudge situation, the mind reset that Moletteuk suggests above would likely be the way you would have to go. At this point, it seems more a question of settling dominant degu status between them.
Do you still have the cages resting on the floor?
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Sept 17, 2017 17:28:35 GMT
It would be really difficult for us to use a different playpen as we only have the one :/ Also their toys for playtime would have to be shared because I don't have enough to go around for two! I have one cage off the floor but haven't found a successful and safe solution for the other cage as the bottom tray is not held in place so when lifted it just falls out. I had a coffee table that was just an inch too small so it wasn't safe for him Thanks for all the advice, guys!
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 19, 2017 16:23:36 GMT
Stacked bricks with boards across to be a makeshift surface might do the trick for the time being.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Sept 23, 2017 14:34:56 GMT
For the present, seeing as they can't see each other anyway, we decided the best course of action would be to put the cage back together making sure there's no way that they can get to each other. I've stopped swapping substrate but as they are so close to each other they still get each other's scent and can still hear each other. They also get each other's scent at playtime (unavoidable for the present I'm afraid.) Pippin seems to be quite enjoying the solitude but poor Merry seems depressed we're spending as much time as we can with them both but it's still not enough.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Feb 24, 2018 17:22:37 GMT
So it's been a long and hard road. We've recently just had a successful introduction where they groomed each other happily and warbled. One still seems a bit agressive - tooth chattering and tail wagging and trying to hump but it was mostly positive and the grooming was really good.
We're going to do a few more meets every few days so as not to over face them with too much at once and see how that goes.
We're looking to the future when we put them back together but have a few question marks on certain things.
For instance do we do any shared playtimes before we put them back in the same cage? They have still been sharing dust and toys at playtime so the smells of both are combined but they've just been put in separately.
When we do put them back in the same cage we'll clean all levels and ledges but do we clean all the toys as well? Do we mix just the old substrate together or put some new and mix some old?
We are quite worried about when put them back together in the same cage as we both work full time during the week so there won't be anyone to watch them. Will this be an issue?
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Post by deguconvert on Feb 25, 2018 0:19:46 GMT
I would definitely do some playtimes with them both before putting them in the cage together. That way you can see them have prolonged time together before the cage comes into the picture. The place you give them play time in, is it different than where you have held the meets between them? If so, you could see some aggression expressed there . . . but you might not either. Not easily predictable, that.
I would clean the cage well, and then mix some old substrate and put it in over top of new substrate. You don't need boat loads of old substrate, but enough that you can put a couple handfuls per area would be good.
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Post by deguconvert on Feb 25, 2018 0:20:44 GMT
OOPS forgot the last thing. When you are ready to put them into the cage together, do it on the evening before your weekend so that you have the next two days to observe them. That should help.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Feb 25, 2018 9:51:30 GMT
Great, thank you.
It is a different place but a place they both use. Should I give it a good clean before I put them both in or let them have the smells?
Thanks for all the advice.
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Post by deguconvert on Feb 25, 2018 21:46:10 GMT
If it is a place they both use, cleaning it before doing a play time together would simply erase all the clues they are used to, and then they would feel like they would have to fight all over again. So, no, DON'T clean it, LOL!! In fact, you could even put a handful of each of their used substrate in there and mix it up really good before putting them in, just to reinforce the understanding that they are supposed to be together.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Feb 26, 2018 22:59:47 GMT
Great advice, thanks!
We're planning to do another week of nightly meets and work up to the playtime to be safe. It's taken so long to get to this stage I don't want to go too fast too soon. (I've noticed I keep saying this and then we end up not playing it safe because the signals tell us otherwise but it's the plan for now anyway!)
We did another 10 minute meet tonight that was mostly positive (so happy we got more adorable grooming!)
I'll post on here when we do a playtime in case anyone is reading this because they're in a similar situation. If this is the case I can only advise to give it plenty of time, let them go at their own pace, don't give up and do any meets/introductions late when they're sleepy because we saw better results at these times. The most important thing is to read the signs and give them space. Be patient! There were times when I thought they would never make friends - it's taken 6 months of separation to get any sort of positive result.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Apr 29, 2018 20:25:31 GMT
I just don't understand degus! They're such complicated little creatures. They'd been doing so well we were doing shared playtimes every night and they would groom and cuddle each other. Tonight they even degu piled and were happy as could be. We decided to clean the cage properly and cleaned all the toys mixed them all up. Mixed the substrates and put the cage back together and everything it took hours. The entire time we cleaned they were degu piling in the wheel in the pen. Happy as lambs.
We put them in together on the same ledge and off they went exploring. They met a couple of times, no tweeting a lot of ignoring but they weren't aggressive. On something like the fourth meet up in the cage about 5 minutes into it -BAM! Pippin bit Merry. He didn't bite hard enough to draw blood but it was enough for Merry to run away shouting. Pippin chased after him biting him as often as he could before could separate them. Poor Merry was so shocked he was crying out and looked miserable in my hands.
We gave them a good ten minutes away from each other and put them back in the pen. At first Pippin wasn't too pleased but there was no violence and they were tweeting to each other. Eventually they groomed each other and made it up. After a couple more grooms and some cool down time together we decided to try again. From the same hands we put them back into the same bit of cage. They lasted ten minutes and Pippin flipped and bit Merry again.
We tried the pen one more time. They made friends quicker this time and I put them on my hands to try the cage again for the final time. Pippin started grooming Merry on my hands and out of nowhere he bites him. We split the cage up and put them side by side again.
We really don't know what to do or where to go from here. It's been 8 months and I'm about ready to throw in the towel. (I won't just grumpy from wasting my entire day and making it worse.)
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Post by claire on Apr 30, 2018 4:01:07 GMT
I know nothing about introductions the only thing I can say is I used to set my big boy off in a rage if I cleaned his wheel. I was over cleaning so I stopped cleaning their toys and huts and tubes just food bowls water drinkers and sandbath and he settled down alot. I'd clean everything they run around all happy then few hrs later ratty would start picking on whoever was closest to him at the time (i had 4 then)and just would not stop chasing. He was coming up to 2 yrs old at the time. Just a bit of info I thought I'd share in case it helps
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Apr 30, 2018 9:47:29 GMT
Hi clareh. Thanks for the advice. I think you have to do it a little bit differently when they've been living separately. As far as my little knowledge on introductions go you should clean everything only in this situation. I did mix their old substrate though and sprinkle it about the cage. Both degus at first seemed unfazed by them being in the same cage together but Pippin must have just decided he didn't like the idea after all.
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Post by misscatafer on Apr 30, 2018 11:19:26 GMT
Is the playpen in the same room as the cage? It sounds like they are able to live harmoniously in the playpen.. So maybe you need a way of making them feel the cage is part of the playpen by just adding a ramp something for them to travel back and forth between cage & pen for a few hours. Just an idea.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Apr 30, 2018 13:04:05 GMT
That's a really good idea, thanks.
We started them off meeting on a duvet upstairs free to move around on a bed to be in as unfamiliar an environment as possible. Then we moved them into the downstairs hallway (the room next to where they live) on the same duvet (we dubbed it the friendship duvet because it seemed to do the job) and put the duvet underneath the pen walls with just a sand bath. We gradually added a bit of food and the odd toy until we took away the duvet and replaced it with the lino we usually use for playtime (toys and food still in the same places so it wasn't so different.) Then we decided to move the pen (keeping the layout the same) into the kitchen (open plan and close to the dining room where they currently live.)
I guess what I'm trying to explain is the long draw out gradual process has worked so far for them.
I'll try tomorrow to put the pen next to their cages but keep it in the same place tonight so they don't flip out and hopefully they can get familiar with being together in that general area of the house and we can try again in a couple of weeks all being well. I'll not allow them to go into cages for a while as I think feelings are still a bit hurt from last night. Also they are currently in cages with mixed smells and toys so they're definitely not in the highest of spirits at the moment.
It's just little Pippin. He can't seem to make the jump from pen to cage while remaining friends. It's just too much for him at the moment!
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Post by moletteuk on Apr 30, 2018 16:57:10 GMT
You are doing really well, this is just a set back, and we have gained extra information from it, so it has been useful if extrememly frustrating.
Were you doing the full clean to create the 'neutral' territory to try to get them back living in the same cage? The rules aren't hard and fast, you have to figure out what works for you, and expand on what is working for you. So we know that familiar territory is key for your boys. I think you and MissC are dead right that you need to work from the pen towards their cages, getting them to accept a bit more at a time. If you can connect the cages to the pen, but restrict access to only one level of each cage at first, or even just attach a little bit of the submissive degu's cage first. You are also right that they will need a few days to cool off, so I wouldn't hope for much this week.
I'm really optimistic about this, you're threequarters there since they have proved they want to be together, you just need to trick them out of their territory pride.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on May 1, 2018 7:30:10 GMT
Thanks. Sometimes you just need to hear from someone else that you haven't failed. It too often feels like I'm failing them or that I've done something wrong. It's very hard to know what they'll do in certain situations. One second they're degu piling and grooming the shizzle out of each other and the next they're fighting.
Yes the full clean was so neither of them got too jealous or annoyed that their toys had been dished out for them both.
Perhaps we need to start by blocking off the top level and having only the submissive degus part of the cage accessible. I did think that maybe they were fighting over territory because the cage is double the size of what they're both currently used to.
We briefly tried a meet last night but it looks like for now we've gone back a few stages. They both puffed up and wouldn't even speak to each other. Just kept chasing each other round and patting each other's bums until one ran away. Even Merry (the submissive) were being aggressive.
The plan is to try separate playtime tonight and then back on the bed after with the duvet of friendship like how we used to.
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Post by bouncy on May 1, 2018 7:51:26 GMT
This must all be heartbreaking for you! I, too, would stick with playtime meets, then expand it to allowing limited access to the cages. It will be interesting to see if Pippin can go into Merry's side without fighting, and vice versa. It may also help you work out which scent to retain to get them back together. Have another think about anything that may have changed. It can be something as simple as using a different brand of soap, scented candle, or a new person visiting the household. It may even be something that your neighbours have changed, or roadworks outside? Mine are freaked by fans, because it prevents them hearing properly, and windy weather has the same problem. I'm very conscious that degus hold grudges longer than any creature I know, so be careful not to try and push things if Pippin has had a strop, even though it all appears one sided. You're doing a marvellous job, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that things resolve themselves soon
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