New and need advice

[danikilvy]

Hi all,
I'm new to this site and I'm a new Degu owner and recently as of last night a chinchilla owner too.

I had 2 degu girls we got them 3 months ago. They were 6months old and called Betty and Wilma. Unfortunately Wilma passed away a few days ago.
I'll start from the beginning and I'm hoping that someone may be able to shed some light on what happened?
During the last week of December Betty and Wilma starting arguing a lot more, I wondered if it was because of puberty or if they were in their mating season or something. It was more that Betty wouldn't leave Wilma along she kept sniffing her behind and following her around the cage. Sometimes she would mount her (which I thought was for dominance) but she kept trying to do it over and over again. Wilma got fed up and started jump kicking and flipping in defense. They never locked in a ball fighting but blood was drawn from Betty on her mouth which was healed by the next day.
We isolated Betty as she caused it for a bit and gave her a time out. They were back to be friends again and New Year's Eve they were the best they've been in a while. In the morning I found Wilma on her side and almost lifeless. We took her out and all she wanted to do was cuddle up to me. She didn't want to eat or drink anything. We took her to the vet (who don't specialise in Degus) but she was forefed a little bit of recovery food and was giving anti inflamitory and antibiotics for her cuts but these never healed. She passed away 2 days later after us trying everything we possibly could.
Without knowing what happened as I was asleep I can only think that Betty had severely beaten her sister up and Wilma didn't want us to save her as she was not taking any food or water even when we were trying to force feed her.

Betty now runs around her cage chittering to herself and seems to be pretty happy being on her own. I know Degus aren't supposed to be on their own hence why we have chinchillas now as we thought if she didn't like other Degus maybe she wants a friend in another species. Today she has been building a nest then taking everything out and rebuilding it again she has also chewed pretty much everything wooden in her cage (we have chew toys, bridge, shelves) she's also chewing the metal cage. She has plenty of time outside her cage daily and lots of things to keep her occupied in her cage so I don't think it's boredom

Can anyone help me?
Thanks

[yasmin]

Oh my, how tragic. My sincere condolences. Poor little Wilma – may she rest in peace.

How bad were the bites?

I have a degu that seemed happier when his cage mate passed away. However, it's been six months now and he showing signs of loneliness.
Not sure if the chinchillas can provide any companionship – more likely they may frighten Betty and make her more protective of her space, I think. The nest building activity seems odd to me. What kind of a cage is she in?

[deguconvert]

I am so sorry for your loss, Danikilvy! These last few weeks must feel so tragic and unreal to you. I would definitely say they were into their adolescent/young adult stage, which can be extremely violent for some. Females don't usually respond so aggressively, but there are some that do, and it is possible that their fighting caused internal damage.

Chins are nocturnal, whereas degus are diurnal like we are. So having them live together isn't the best thing for Betty. Just because Betty and Wilma had a really nasty beginning to their adolescent stage, doesn't mean that Betty is beyond being bonded and living happily with another degu. It could mean it will be very difficult though. There is the potential that she would bond with a male successfully, but you would really want the male to be neutered though. Degus can reproduce like crazy. Some females that are very aggressive just don't get along with other females, but can do very well with another male. Is that something you might consider? Do you know how to distinguish between the male and female degu?

Being newish to degus, how much do you know about degus in general? We have a lot of great information on our forum. I can point you to some great reading if you are up for it.

[uglibug]

So sorry for your loss, it must have been quite a shock. Our girls also had a horrible adolescent stage, almost constant fighting for nearly 6 months but thankfully they did settle back down in the end and, despite many bites and scratches (some quite nasty ones), no serious damage was done. It may be worth waiting for her to grow out of this hormonal phase and trying intros with another goo. She may not take to another but she will start to show signs of stress if she is lonely. Look out for her getting clingy, fur pulling or lowering of activity levels as these would all be signs she is missing company of her own kind. For the short term, try getting her a small stuffed toy, some goos like them to cuddle up to, and a heat pad could be useful since she has no-one to share body heat with.

[danikilvy]

Thank you both for the condolences and replies.
Yasmin there seemed to be scratches on Wilma and one of her ears were torn in a few places. She also had something on her front left paw as this was bleeding as well and she had severe cuts and swelling around her mouth.
Deguconvert I've been looking at info and done some research before we got them from degutopia I found that very helpful although I must admit I couldn't find anything exactly like this situation on the web anywhere I almost felt as if Betty was some sort of rouge or lone degu or something as I found her behavior strange compared to what I had read about. What do you think this nesting thing is she has kept doing the last 24 hours? Is it a hormonal thing? Also she seems to be burying her food a lot more recently and she's bathing quite a bit. She also has an obsession with going in her exercise ball when she's not in her playroom. Is this also a hormonal thing?
Yes I checked degutopia about the sexing where the cone is more far apart on males than females. Betty and Wilma were both female.
Her cage is the wire one from Pets at Home the measurements approx are L 3ft W 1.5ft H 2ft
The plan is that as we currently have our flat for sale once we move to a house I plan to get one of those tall cages with lots of levels in them for her but that's when the room is there for it.

The chinchillas seem to not be nocturnal they're out and about right now and they go to sleep when I got to sleep at night. Also (Fudge and Whispa) the chinchillas have been good with Betty and Betty seemed to enjoy them for a few minutes then she starts trying to dominate them and trying to mount them and peeing on them etc (even though they're three times her size) so I hope that in the future they can be friend but obviously the introduction will be a slow slow process and the same will be once we then get a neutered male for her because I don't want her alone.
But getting a male won't be until we move and get the tall cage.

Thank you again to you for replying I don't feel alone in this anymore

[danikilvy]

Thank you Uglibug for the advice I shall try that for her see how she is. Her activity levels seem to be higher than ever at the moment. Do you happen to know when she might grow out of this stage is it until they're about 13 months old? In which case she's got another 7 months to go.

[uglibug]

Our girls settled down at about 12 - 14 months but some will settle quicker than this and I have heard of it lasting til 18 months of age.

[danikilvy]

Ok thanks. At least I know a timescale for her to settle down.

[deguconvert]

We have a member who had two females, and they got along fine with each other, but one of the girls consistently had a very marked increase in activity during her cycle. It took a couple or three months to firmly have her activity associated with her cycle (degus have a 21 day cycle) but with keen observation and tracking all things out in a log, her owner did an excellent job of discovery. There were months of "what to do" kinds of discussion, and then her owner settled on introducing a neutered male. It took some more time for the intros, but once they were all together, the influence of the male in the cage completely settled the one girl and her hormones down. They made a very happy group of three. (Well . . . for a long while, but a different and unforeseen issue arose that caused changes.) Anyway, looking into a neutered male would be a direction to consider down the line.

The P@H Thickets cage has a nasty rep here, and though they push that cage almost exclusively for degu housing in that chain of stores, it is one of the worst you can get. It is simply not large enough for one degu, let alone two. It is very likely that the size of it contributed significantly to the conflict of Betty and Wilma. Not to say that the adolescent stage is less significant. By no means! But when you have adolescents in a cage of that size, it becomes a pressure cooker with no room for the "heat" of hormonal/dominance aggressions to be otherwise dispelled. Their stage in life is an issue. The size of the cage is an issue. Put both of these big issues together, and you have a powder keg catalyst for destructive and potentially deadly behavior.

I am going to point you toward some of our information threads, that are somewhat different that you may have read on Degutopia. Please read them at your leisure, as I am sure you will find them very helpful and illuminating.

deguworld.proboards.com/thread/19754/beginners-guide-degu-keeping
deguworld.proboards.com/thread/13040/nightwishravens-beginners-guide-degu-keeping

deguworld.proboards.com/thread/5337/new-degu-owner-advice

deguworld.proboards.com/thread/9396/forums-cage-size-recommendations
deguworld.proboards.com/thread/6918/show-cage
deguworld.proboards.com/thread/19667/cage-build-diy-tips-tricks
deguworld.proboards.com/thread/18717/improving-metal-cage

deguworld.proboards.com/thread/16425/degu-feeding-guide

deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17618/introductions-fighting-quick-guide
deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17619/deguconverts-detailed-introductions-fighting-guide

[moletteuk]

It sounds like there might have been an element of bad luck in Wilma's death, I think Betty definitely deserves a second chance at companionship.

Husbandry has moved on quite a lot in recent years and we try to keep our information up to date, more so than Degutopia, so our beginner's guide (linked above) is a great place to check you are up to speed on everything. Cage size in particular is so important for degus (and chinchillas) with them having such complex social relationships and need to be able to get away from each other. Taller, multi-layer cages still need to be a minium of 100cm wide to allow a flat run.

[danikilvy]

Thank you both for the advice. I will definitely look into those threads now!
Once we move to a house (we hope writhing the next 3 months) we will be getting a much bigger cage (each) for goo and Chins.
Are there any recommended makes of cage to get? Or certain type?

[deguconvert]

The double Critter Nation cage. That is a really good cage. There is also the double Aventura, but it is not easy to put together. You could read that as a royal pain. Once it is put together, owners seem to love it.

[moletteuk]

Aventura or Explorer 2nd edition are the UK versions of the most popular cage style. Longer is better but it's very difficult to buy a longer cage that isn't stupidly expensive.

[danikilvy]

That's brilliant thank you so much!
When he time comes to move I will be getting that pronto!
I just wanted to ask what you guys might think if I made a cage with 2 of those p@h and put them one on top of the other and made it so it was accessible to make one big cage? Would this be ok for 2 goos or 2 chins?

Thanks again everyone

[moletteuk]

Forgot to reply to this, sorry!

I think you need 3 PAH cages put together to meet our guidelines for 2 degus, but this can work quite well and gives you lots of flexibility, and depending on where you live you can often find them for sale cheaply on second hand sites. You need three together because the small doors mean you can't put full area shelves in to double up the floor area for each cage.

I don't know about chins, they need at least as much space as degus, probably more.

If you look in the 'show us your cage thread' there are examples of stacked PAH (thickets) cages in there. deguworld.proboards.com/thread/6918/show-cage?page=32