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Post by deguconvert on Feb 29, 2012 14:52:49 GMT
That same salad package costs three times that amount here. Food costs have at least doubled over the last year here, and it is increasing. The city we live in has one of the highest costs of living in Canada. Finding what I can outside for free, may have to become a family endeavour through the summer in order to reduce costs.
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 1, 2012 15:33:03 GMT
I think monetary cost and time cost are affecting people getting into natural nutrition. You can buy 4kg of Gerty Guinea for £4, Pets@home nuggets are £2.30 a kg. From what I've seen, many natural nutrition products in a comparable dried form are around £10 a kg. Obviously seeds & cereals cost much less. It's also difficult to say just go out and collect stuff for free because this takes a lot of time, which is also often in short supply.
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Post by deguconvert on Mar 1, 2012 16:20:03 GMT
My observation about the cost of the salad was more along the lines of envy to be honest. I did not intend to provoke annoyance or anger. My apologies.
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Post by Maravilla on Mar 1, 2012 16:35:02 GMT
It's also difficult to say just go out and collect stuff for free because this takes a lot of time, which is also often in short supply. Well, IMHO you are overestimating the time needed for this. I agree that there are regions where it is more difficult to find suitable plants and have longer ways to find appropriate places. But for most people it would just mean to have a nice walk on Sunday afternoons during the summer period. We are talking about one walk per week. When I took care for 2 rabbits for a couple of months I had to collect more than 1 kg of fresh green every second day...
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 1, 2012 17:30:58 GMT
I completely support natural nutrition. My degus eat 50% natural nutrition.
Perhaps I haven't made clear the purpose of my comments. I'm certainly not trying to be inflammatory or deter anyone. I'm trying to discuss the reasons why more people aren't getting involved in natural nutrition. I'm trying to put forward possible reasons why people are reluctant so that we can help them overcome these hurdles. I'm trying to demonstrate how people at the opposite end of the scale to you might feel.
So far we have talked about how to go about feeding natural nutrition, which is an amazing achievement, a real advancement in degu husbandry. But it's value is limited if many degu keepers are left thinking, rightly or wrongly that it is too expensive, or too time consuming, or some other reason that we need to establish.
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 1, 2012 20:14:03 GMT
If we consider costs on the basis of a mixture of Science Selective squares and Pets@home nuggets, then a 50% natural nutrition using only bought ingredients could be about £ 2 / month / degu more expensive. So you agree with me that bought in natural nutrition costs more then?
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Post by Karma on Mar 2, 2012 4:13:39 GMT
I totally agree deguconvert. I've been watching people give prices here and I was under the impression that europe was more expensive but no way!! 1kg of versele-laga pellets = $8.49 (and yes we are the cheapest pet store as per all the customer comments), degu nature is roughly the same. 15oz of hay - $5-20 depending on the brand/type critter nation with shipping costed me $370 and that was an amazing steal!! When we had access to the ferret nation a year ago with a different wholesaler - it would have been roughly $700 to buy in Calgary. Vegetables are very expensive (hence why I'm planning to make an actual garden this week instead of growing lettuce in between the flowers). Living in the city also gives other issues. Where to look for edible plants? Most of the pathways are all grass and not "natural" vegetation. I do live beside nose hill which is a completely natural area but since it's a national (provincal?) park I'm not allow to remove plants from it - plus there are a million dogs everywhere that poop. I would have to drive outside the city to find areas where to collect. I would LOVE to collect and have my degus are completely natural food but I really don't think it's feasible here. However deguconvert, just think of the millions of dandelions we can collect Maybe we should build and run a greenhouse for all the calgarian degus and rabbits and other animals lol
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2012 12:28:04 GMT
That's not so bad.. Here in Norway, 1 kg of Versele Lage Degu nature costs ~17,19 USD/16.98 CAD. My JR Farm degu special is ~16.58 USD/16,37 CAD per kg. For regular quality hay it's ~8,95 USD/8,83 CAD per kg. For better hay (meadow with herbs) it's 31,85 USD/31,45 CAD per kg. These prices are from the most common brand of petshops, excluding the JR farm, who is from a webshop. But in all fairness, this is just Norway, not Europe at large. We are not part of the EU, and we have always been one of the most expensive countries in Europe, if not in the world. As for vegetables, I am rubbish at remembering prices.. But the cherry tomatoes I like is ~7 USD/CAD per 200 grams. Lucky for me though, there is quite a bit of terrain all around, which will make forarging in the summer easy. I have always had lots of herbs on my veranda, and this year will be no exception. I am confident that going for a more natural diet will lower the costs of feeding my degus quite substantially
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Post by listracian on Mar 2, 2012 13:47:53 GMT
I think you need to take into account how many degus you are feeding in this. I have 10 and normally buy a 15kg bag of guinea pig food for £14.50 which lasts 3-4 months possibly more, I have never checked exactly how long it lasts but a loooooong time. I did the maths and buying fresh veg would not in anyway work out cheaper or even the same. Along with the hay they need on top of that its just not feasible. I also have a dog, chickens and myself to feed, a car to run and can only work 12 hours a week with uni. My goos are all healthy and have always been fed the same food and no problems though yes it would be nice to feed them a natural diet its just not feasible. It's too expensive. Not only that with work, uni, the two voluntary jobs I have for my work experience module I don't have much time to go out and look for stuff. It's depressing but I don't have the extra time if I want to give my animals the time they deserve.
That however is just what I have found here, time and money is a large reason why I can't do it. I love my goos and play with them when I can and they are healthy and their health is what matters.
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Post by fred on Mar 2, 2012 18:57:44 GMT
As I have written on this forum before, Gerty Guinea is not suitable as a hard feed for degus. It has a calcium:phosphorous ratio of 1.2 : 1 which is too low. There are several scientific studies that show health risks associated with an improper calcium:phosphorous ratio. This is also recognised by Degutopia ( www.degutopia.co.uk/degudiet.htm ): “Degus, like many other animals, require a calcium:phosphorous ratio of 2:1 in their diet, in order to allow them to absorb calcium efficiently. An improper calcium:phosphorous ratio (e.g. equal parts), or no added calcium or phosphorous in the diet, causes calcification of the kidneys of the degu. It also causes dental problems in degus, such as overgrowth of the roots and crowns of molars and incisors. The correct dietary intake of calcium and phosphorous for degus is indicated to be around 12 g kg-1 calcium and 6 g kg-1 phosphorous.” I am sorry to have to put it so bluntly, but any degu owner who disregards repeated warnings and insists to feed only Gerty Guinea (plus hay), acts irresponsibly.
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Post by listracian on Mar 2, 2012 19:11:51 GMT
I don't think anyone here has said they only feed gerty food.
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Post by deguconvert on Mar 3, 2012 1:04:28 GMT
Nope, no mention of GERTY Guinea pig food being used, just A guinea pig food. I also feed A guinea pig food, but not Gerty. I was not impressed with Gerty. But I do keep a guinea pig food (Hertz Living Creatures) in my mix because I have two out of my adult degus that will ignore everything else I put in the cage for them to eat, (except sunflower seeds which we know they can not have too much of) and rapidly begin to drop weight if I don't have them there. As it is, one of the girls is on the thin side, as I thought to reduce the amount of GP pellets and try to force her to eat more of the other foods available to her, but she steadfastly refuses to eat anything else.
Modified this because I realized I wasn't as clear as I should have been about not liking Gerty, but do use a GP food that isn't Gerty.
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Post by davx on Mar 3, 2012 7:15:31 GMT
There is a rethinking... fact is that cities are species rich and the question is more where to find the plants, but fact is also that the situation in urban regions is totally different to rural landscapes.
It really needs time to find ways how to use cities for collecting fresh food. There are many places overused by human activities as well as pets like dogs and cats. On the other hand there are also more calm hoods, sometimes with old seldom used buildings and green parts. Weed is growing tall and abundant. Also close to water (rivers, lakes etc.) often is an abundant plant growth. Also often a good choice are the edges of the cities or bigger forests. It is not uncommon that they aren't overused by humans and pets and often they are easily reachable with public transport. Of course we have to plan a walk of about 500 m, 1 km or even 2 km. But it might be an option to combine this with a Sunday evening walk trough the urban nature or eventually it is also possible to go there in the evening after work.
Here in Germany and Switzerland also other sites for collecting plants are discussed and used, like meadows or green areas of libraries, universities, even cemeteries (here often animals aren't allowed to walk around).
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Post by deguconvert on Mar 3, 2012 8:36:09 GMT
Davx, can you tell us if the cities of Germany and Switzerland use insecticide or herbicide sprays on the city green areas? Our school playgrounds and many of the green spaces are often sprayed with both these chemical types to control mosquitoes and to kill dandelions etc., which make them a hazardous area to collect from.
How about those of you living in the UK? Do you know what areas of your city are sprayed to control insect and weed growth?
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Post by listracian on Mar 3, 2012 9:26:19 GMT
As you don't know what it is and I said it is similar it's hardly worth judging someone on information you don't have. I also know a lot more about nutrition then you seem to give me credit for. We are all able to do our own research.
Also DC - a lot of our fields around here are all spread with stuff to protect crops and I have seen it cover the footpaths etc. They get sprayed a lot around this time of year though the only time I haven't seen them spraying is around late Oct-Feb time, when it is cold and frosty. Thats out in the countryside though, I don't know about the city but I wouldn't want to, they put stuff out to poison loads of the squirrels here.
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Post by fred on Mar 3, 2012 9:30:25 GMT
As you don't know what it is and I said it is similar it's hardly worth judging someone on information you don't have. I also know a lot more about nutrition then you seem to give me credit for. We are all able to do our own research. Then why don't you give us the ingredient list and the calcium and phosphorous content?
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Post by listracian on Mar 3, 2012 9:55:57 GMT
I don't have the bag of food. Like I said I only have to buy it every few months and it gets emptied into a box as I don't have room to store it. When I buy some which won't be for another month or so I will let you know.
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Post by nuttz on Mar 3, 2012 10:38:28 GMT
**sinks in chair and admits** i also use a guinea pig mix, although not Gerti as ive never seen it out here for sell, my mix is called guinea pig crispy........i think, not sure as i always empty the bag into a large container. the reason why i use this is, because out here degu food isnt too easy to find, infact i did find one pack the other day in a pet store for the first time but i have two reasons not to buy this product, 1:- because its only 1kg bag and costs almost 6 euros and 2:- because on the pack it mentions for degus and gerbils, for some reason that doesnt sound right, as im sure that degus dont eat the same as gerbils so this set alarm bells ringing whether it was safe?! ive been feeding my goos guinea pig food since the beginning of time and they dont show any signs of ill health, all my babies that were born back last october were all very healthy and i dont think this would be the case if the food i gave was bad for them! i only feed them hard food every other day, the days in which i do not give them guinea pig food i give them as many natural products as possible,(to name a few:- parsley, they love it, sage, broccoli, cauli, just this week i brought them a mix salad bag and celery to try, ive also made and dried my own mixes that contain peppers, tomatoes, courgettes, carrots etc, etc) two of my boys really arnt impressed with the fresh foods but the rest love it and the more i offer the more they seem to enjoy. also this way of feeding has helped so much with the problems i was having with selective eating, they were only eating all the nice bits and leaving the nuggets (brown bits) now, i find they eat pretty much all of the mix. ;D as for the costs, hmmm.......im really not sure if its any cheaper but ive brought heaps of seeds and shall be starting my own little veggie patch at the back of my garden in the next couple of weeks (just waiting for the weather to warm up a bit first) im sure, if, my selection is successful, then feeding them more natural products will prove to be cheaper?! "i hope"! as for the time factor......for me, i havent got a problem with time, infact i love going for walks but my problems are more to the fact that i dont know what to look for, i dont know whats safe and im terrible at plant/ weed identification plus in summer, spain is pretty dry so not many weeds etc about, as those are pretty much browned in the sun. although i did manage to get them loads of willow tree branches last weekend and they love it ;D i really love the fact that many of us are trying to feed our goos a more natural, balanced diet but i also understand that it is very difficult to do so, all we can do, is do our best. im certain that nobody here would do their goos any harm! here is a couple of pictures of my last mix that i made, TBH im pretty proud of myself ;D
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Post by smithomatic on Mar 3, 2012 11:18:20 GMT
I think even I would eat that nuttz... lol Originally I began feeding my degus on Degu Xtravital, I dont know what your opinions are on this hard feed but to me it seemed pretty well rounded. The goos loved this food, way more than the degu nuggets. Unfortunately it was hard to get hold of and is very expensive for very little around here. Needless to say I scribbled down the ingrediants and went on the hunt. I have found a local pet shop that has large bins full of different kinds of chinchilla, rabbit, guinie pig and hamster muesli. Its all open and self service, like a pick n mix, so you can choose what you want. I always take my scoop to the basic guinie pig food carefully selecting from the bin what I want. I tend to get the dried peas and brocolli, oats, locust beans, dried carrot, exruded wheat and pellets, dried grass, popped corn, and mash dried celery. I take about 20kgs of this home with me. I also collect large quantaties of seeds (mixed) and millet spray. Finally I also purchase; dried plantain, dried dandelion, birch and apple leaves, and a camomile salad (containing many different safe herbs). I arrive home and mix all these ingrediants together. One large handful of each different product then mixed together in a tupplewear container tends to last my 4 boys 1-2 days. I leave the food inside the home until they have finished it. I also tend to make a trip to the local supermarket where you can buy a living basil, rosemary and thyme plants. I plant these in the cage for the degus to eat but also for aethetic reasons as it looks very natural. Il also buy a few bags of fresh to feed aswell. I compliment my degus diet with fresh veg when they are happy to accept it - usually a tomato. During the winter I collect vast amounts of dandelion leaves, birch tree leaves, apple tree leaves and grass to feed fresh and dried. @dc I usually find the safest places to pick fresh food, in the more habitated areas, is where the dandelion weeds are growing well. Regularly sprayed areas tend to yield unhealthy and few dandelions but the safe areas usually have pockets where hundreds of the plant live. They are usually ready for harvesting again in just a few days too because they grow so fast. Josh
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 3, 2012 11:28:44 GMT
Gerty Guinea is relevant as a cost comparison for the plain fact that lots of people use it. Suitability is a different topic. That mix looks great Nuttz, soooo Mediterranean! Weeds are sometimes sprayed in urban areas in the UK, often with glyphosate, which is a systemic weed killer so it is absorbed through the whole plant, and can take a few days to show effects, which could be a worry. I think this is mostly done on pavements, or where they are clearing overgrown areas, where verges are encroaching on footpaths and so on. I think flower beds are usually hoed for weeds. I think insecticides in public urban areas are likely to be quite limited, probably only used for things commonly infested like roses, are a specific plant or tree with a problem. Also, WOW! at some of the international food costs! Is it possible to buy hay locally by the bale? Are pet food costs in the same proportion to people/livestock food costs, or are pet owners specifically being exploited?
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