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Post by fred on Jun 29, 2011 20:44:29 GMT
Since this has come up in another thread to generally question information provided by the RSPCA, and since I have always found degutopia's (and some other sites') “toxic woods” lists rather irksome, I would like to make some comments here.
Degutopia's “toxic woods” is a misnomer, it should have been called “woods that have been found toxic to other species”. It's just not possible to extrapolate to degus. It would be the same as saying sugar is good for degus because it is good for other rodents or saying sugar is toxic for other rodents because it is toxic for degus.
In fact all of the woods recommended by the RSPCA have been used in Germany without any ill effects. A particularly good example is oak. Degutopia refers to a chin site where the argument is that it may be toxic to chins because it is toxic to horses (!!) because of its tannin content. In contrast, there are scientific studies that have shown that tannin is not toxic for degus.
Another wood that is declared toxic by degutopia but enjoyed by German degus is cherry. It is also enjoyed by by my two girls without any ill effects.
The problem with the internet is that the information on it is not subject to ANY checks whether it is accurate. Often information is transferred from one site to the other and with every transfer it becomes less reliable. The internet is the place where myths flourish and we should never take it as gospel.
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Post by woodchip on Jun 29, 2011 21:00:06 GMT
Can this be said for the information on the RSPCA website then?  Cheers for that Fred. I'd not heard any references to oak being okay for goos. |
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Jun 29, 2011 21:07:37 GMT
Birch, Aspen and Willow have all been contested by Degutopia as being toxic for degus.
These woods have been used for decades by degu owners in eastern Europe without reports of ill effects.
Birch is by far the most popular for using in the degu cage (branches and logs) and degus are known to love ripping off the layers of white bark from the branches.
Aspen is very commonly used as bedding and Willow is also often used in the degu cage.
As was already discussed in other threads last year, these woods have been mostly contested due to the fact that they had a negative impact on the health of certain animal species (usually mice) and not Degus themselves.
On these matters Degutopia seems to be very cautious. I was actually suprised to find out many of the Toxic woods on Degutopia have actually never had negative impacts on the health of degus.
Degutopia is the largest english degu website. Many new smaller degu websites copy the information on Degutopia...spreading the info all over the web.
When I started learning about degus, I was very confused between english, french and german sites. The information I found on safe woods, diet and cage size requirements condraticted each other.
But after speaking to many experienced degu owners, I was not confused any more.
Degus have been domesticated in Germany for quite a bit longer...when it comes to degus, they know their stuff.
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Post by woodchip on Jun 29, 2011 21:09:12 GMT
OK. It seems like there is more conflicting notes on the web about "safe" woods for degus than on JFK.
Based on this, my new found knowledge that goos won't curl up and die if they sniff a bit of willow and Fred kindly highlighting that oak and cherry are fine for european goos I thought it would be a good idea if we could all list the woods we give our degus (or know are safe) then I can update this thread with any new woods. This is not intended to go against the good work of Chloe at degutopia, but feel it would help the degu community if we were to expand the "safe wood" list.
Not all this wood may be technically safe, but it will be a list of woods "we" have used without any ill effects.
1) Kiln dried pine
2) Apple
3) Hawthorn
4) Weeping Willow (not the white/silver barked willow) - HEAVILY DEBATED
5) Hazel
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Post by woodchip on Jun 29, 2011 21:11:21 GMT
I've just started a thread for a list of "safe" woods. That way we can discuss it here and then list the "safe" woods in the other thread. If it could be stickied when it's a bit more complete that would be good, NWR.
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Post by smux on Jun 29, 2011 21:29:48 GMT
When it comes to willow, Degutopia's problem is they don't differentiate between the types...normal Willow is the toxic (or, to be more specific, least healthy) wood while "weeping willow" isn't...many shops sell wood sticks made from weeping willow. If the bark on the willow tree is a strong white, it is the normal willow tree. BTW, willow is bad because of its high tannin content and also a small amount of salicin. If there is scientific evidence that proves these two are in no way poisonous or dangerous to degus, this should be documented and kept online somewhere (although I disagree with the means by which this evidence would have to be gained, degus would have to suffer or at least potentially suffer). I wrote something on the happydegu wiki a while ago, haven't updated it in a while but it's still there. happydegu.wikia.com/wiki/WillowI also documented Hawthorn at happydegu.wikia.com/wiki/Hawthorn and planned to do a few more woods, but got bored and didn't get much interest from anyone else to help with it :-P happydegu.wikia.com/wiki/Wood_for_Degus has a list of woods and their status. I wanted to do a traffic light system for scoring each wood, and list them alphabetically, but never got around to it. |
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Post by fred on Jun 29, 2011 21:50:24 GMT
Can this be said for the information on the RSPCA website then? ;)s. Totally I wouldn't trust their website any more than others. It's just when four independent websites in four countries say roughly the same (and in one country it's actually the law), then yes I am somehow ready to let this become my gospel  |
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Post by sophie9901 on Jun 29, 2011 22:08:31 GMT
Thanks for starting this thread fred! I think it definitely needed to be done, and woodchip thank you for starting a "safe wood" thread, that will be really useful to me, especially when I finally get round to building a new cage. I give my goo's willow sticks regularly (shop bought pre cut etc) and they have never had any health complications so I would love to protest that. Fred can I just ask what scientific experiments these are that you claim prove some evidence to support the safety of tannin to degu's? Thanks guys |
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Post by smux on Jun 29, 2011 22:52:05 GMT
The real problem with what's hot and what's not (good and bad) with regards to woods is that if a site says it's safe then we use it and our degus get ill, we have no-one to blame except ourselves. If a site claims it is safe, there needs to be documented evidence to prove this rather than just a simple good/bad, and for the most part this is what Chloe has done with degutopia...sadly, some of the information is inaccurate or poorly described (see willow I mentioned, above) and can be misleading. Any information provided to confirm or deny the safety of a wood needs to come complete with an extensive explanation of why it might be considered toxic by others (like I have done for Willow on the wiki) and why it isn't or where the confusion might be.
Fred, if you're interested, I can have it added to the wiki for other people to read through (properly attributed to the author, of course, I do my best to link the source so people know where to go to find out more about it...I don't claim the information is mine unless it actually is :-P) or you can sign up and make your own contributions. If people started to work on it with me, I might go back to working on it a little more :-P
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Post by deguconvert on Jun 30, 2011 0:12:08 GMT
Shall I remove the current list of toxic woods?
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Post by weaselprime on Jun 30, 2011 2:06:02 GMT
Got Wood?
sorry I'm being childish (reason 76 why I shouldn't have kids)
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Post by amie on Jun 30, 2011 3:01:26 GMT
"(reason 76 why I shouldn't have kids)" LOL! Why? Because you haven't got wood? I'm sorry, lol Now I'm being childish. This is a SERIOUS thread! |
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Post by amie on Jun 30, 2011 3:11:28 GMT
Mine have had Willow, Apple and kiln dried pine so far. I'm still catching up with the whole buying different wood for them. They have plently of wooden toys though.
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Post by fred on Jun 30, 2011 8:48:28 GMT
deguconvert, smux, woodchip – if none of you has objections to this, I would suggest to move all posts in this thread which are aimed at extending the list of safe woods to the ultimate wood thread. I'll hold back with my responses to questions raised for now but will post as soon as soon as it has been decided in which thread(s) to follow this up.
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Post by deguconvert on Jun 30, 2011 18:01:51 GMT
Just so you all may know, I have already modified the first posting on the Toxic Woods List thread, listing the safe woods that we have alread discussed. I'll see if I can move these over . . . might be easier to just lock this one though.
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Post by fred on Jul 1, 2011 16:52:32 GMT
woodchip – thanks for starting the ultimate safe wood threat. It will be good to have the list of safe woods systematically extended. It is so frustrating when you live in city, are not (yet) prepared to vandalise your neighbours' gardens, and are therefore left with so few options. I would suggest that we include only woods where 1) we can give a sound reason why their previous inclusion in toxic woods lists is misplaced and 2) they have been frequently used without effect (i.e. more than just anecdotal “evidence”). Where this is not the case we should still err on the side of caution. smux – while there should be a simple list here on the forum, I agree that there needs to be some documentation. This should be organised in a way that is simply not possible within a thread. I'd be happy to help with the wiki for those woods considered safe (but for time reasons would shy away from the maybes and definitely toxic ones). There is a German degu wiki with pages for individual woods and I could have a look how much useful information there is. sophie9901 – They fed different diets with low and high tannin contents (i.e. more than just branches for chewing) and found no ill effects ( www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9406439 , www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341951 ).
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Post by sophie9901 on Jul 1, 2011 18:01:36 GMT
Thanks fred those links are very interesting  |
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Post by weaselprime on Jul 2, 2011 1:35:17 GMT
Just occured to me, and not sure why I didn't make this link before (d**n night shift brain) willow bark contains salicylic acid (the same stuff thats in aspirin) which causes liver damage in people (in large doses),gastric ulceration (in small long term doses) and thins the blood. I'm going to have a look around at which willows have higher concentrations as I think this is the most likely cause of toxicity.
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Post by sophie9901 on Jul 2, 2011 22:10:26 GMT
Hey weaselprime please do look this up; it's all very interesting, I've stopped giving my goo's any form of willow for the time being until more people have confirmed the affects |
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Post by fred on Jul 2, 2011 23:03:58 GMT
Weeping willow, which is the one in rodent sticks and toys, is completely safe to use (has been in Germany for many years).
There seems to be little information about white willow and I would avoid that (not used in pet products anyway). It may contain more salicin than weeping willow, let's see whether weaselprime will have more on this.
Willows are not in degutopia's toxic list because of salicin but because of some old dermatological research which has no relevance to degu keeping whatsoever (it's reference #92 which accounts for many wrongful placements in that list).
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