|
Post by sophie9901 on Jul 4, 2011 9:34:03 GMT
Thanks Smux! I am just contemplating ordering them some more just incase!! It's ashame because they absolutely love the stuff and since I haven't given them any they've started biting the bars of the cage, and they never used to do that lol!
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jul 10, 2011 11:27:41 GMT
I have now managed to get through all of degutopia's claims of toxic woods (I'll put that into a separate post). From this it is clear to me that a toxic woods list is not a sensible thing and that, as has been suggested by several members, we need a safe woods list.
So far we have (currently listed at the top the toxic woods thread): birch aspen weeping willow kiln dried pine hazel hawthorn plum oak cherry bamboo
To this we can safely add: pear, quince (related to apple) apricot, peach, prune (related to cherry and plum)
I have done some searches of the German-speaking degu forums and web sites and my suggestion is that we limit the safe woods lists to those where sufficient information is available and which may be of interest to many members (and ignore the more exotic ones).
As a general rule, coniferous / evergreen woods all appear to be more or less toxic and it seems that beyond kiln dried pine only kiln dried fir and spruce can be recommended.
As far as deciduous woods are concerned, I currently have the following list of trees to look into: alder (apparently safe) ash beech (very controversial) elm lime tree (apparently safe) maples (apparently major differences between species)
If there are any further trees you think may be of wider interest, please let me know and I will try to dig out more information.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jul 10, 2011 15:37:21 GMT
Degutopia's fanatsia on the theme of toxic woods
I have looked at their list in full detail and I must say I hadn't seen anything quite like it before. There is NOT A SINGLE entry in this long list where the claim that a particular wood is toxic stands up to scrutiny (which of course doesn't mean that all of them are safe).
Many of the “toxic” woods have been taken from similar lists for chins and parrots. There are two reasons why this is not an acceptable approach. First, it is not possible to extrapolate from one species to another, certainly not from parrots to degus. Second, these lists are at least partly “Chinese whispers” affairs where the original source of the claim stays unknown and cannot be checked. What I find even more disturbing is the inconsistent pick and mix. For example, several fruit trees are declared toxic with reference to the parrots list but when ones looks up the corresponding entry in that list it also contains apple!!
Several other woods are included in the degutopia list because of reported effects of their dust. This is of course not relevant to using branches of these trees. On the other hand, wood shavings used for bedding seem to be universally dust extracted these days.
Lastly there are a some odd entries. For example one reference “supporting” the claim that aspen is toxic is the report that material leaching from huge piles of aspen logs over a two year period was, at high concentrations, toxic to water fleas and rainbow trout. I would expect that at this level of irrelevance one could also find “evidence” that apple, hazel and hawthorn are toxic.
Before I looked into this, I thought that, as has been suggested by others, degutopia was just overly cautious. Unfortunately, it's not possible to put such a positive glance on it – this list is utter nonsense from Abale to Zebrawood!
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Jul 10, 2011 19:47:25 GMT
I use lime/ linden wood, I've seen it on safe wood lists. Another reasonably common one that I've seen on safe lists is poplar, might be worth looking into, I think it's in the same tree group as willow.
What's the situation with plum & cherry? They are mentioned on the big german list, but I think the english translation I've seen of what they say is wrong. I think the german site actually says that they commonly use cherry/plum with no problems.
I've also read somewhere that spruce and fir are OK kiln dried without bark, which would be of serious interest to people trying to find suitable wood to make shelves or shelf edging.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jul 10, 2011 21:39:10 GMT
moletteuk - lime / linden trees are found on all German safe wood lists and it's good to have your confirmation. Poplar belongs to same genus - Populus - as aspen; it seems German sites consider all members as safe but I will try to find out whether this can be safely assumed (I suspect they didn't think about the North American poplar and cottonwood species). Cherry is commonly used in Germany and considered safe (I have used it myself). That should apply to all members of the genus Prunus (apricot, peach, nectarine, plum, prune) but I will do some further specific searches on these. Fir and spruce boards are used for cages and shelves in Germany. It seems that air dried is OK for this (the “mounted” in the translation of the German site in the toxic woods thread is an incorrect translation by Google and “stored” would have been more accurate). I will try to find out what kiln dried versus air dried actually means for use in degus cages.
|
|
|
Post by malteser60 on Jul 10, 2011 22:33:43 GMT
I agree with you fred, when I first got my girls I was quite confused with what constitutes safe wood. Degutopia does have a short list of safe woods (next to the button that leads you to the toxic woods) however it wasn't that clear to find at first.
Plus I do query the validity of the list of toxic woods. Most of them are down on the toxic list as the dust is an eye, skin and respiratory irritants. Thing is, most wood dust is an eye, skin and respiratory irritant just by the physical aspect of the dust - mainly being small enough to irritate the mucosal lining of the trachea and lungs, the conjunctiva of the eye, and causing skin rash. This is mainly done by upsetting the water balance in these areas - mainly the respiratory system and eyes, by absorbing water. So, even apple wood dust will also cause the same issues, even though apple wood is safe for the degus.
What is needed is toxicity due to ingestion - preferably toxicological effects on rodents similar to degus (rather than a trout as was listed!). However unfortunately there won't be that much information along these lines. So I guess the best thing to do is to identify those woods that have been used long term by degu owners and their observations on them.
Edit: What I found disturbing is that if you look under teak it only mentions it as a sensitiser, however I know for a fact that the dust is highly carcinogenic (I used to work with teak on boats, especially sanding the decks of boats). I would have thought that would be more important than saying that it is a sensitiser.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jul 11, 2011 11:59:20 GMT
What is needed is toxicity due to ingestion - preferably toxicological effects on rodents similar to degus (rather than a trout as was listed!). However unfortunately there won't be that much information along these lines. So I guess the best thing to do is to identify those woods that have been used long term by degu owners and their observations on them. Thanks malteser, your are pointing at the real issue here. As far as I can see there are no rodents similar to degus about which there is more known than about degus themselves. Therefore we are stuck with a relatively small number of scientific papers which don't help with most of the woods we are interested in. Because degutopia has had such a dominant position in English speaking countries, we will probably have to rely on observations by German and Swiss degu owner. Whereas some of the woods have been used widely and long term, a less clear picture emerges with others and I find differences between their discussion on the two major forums. I'll see what information I can gather to make an educated judgement. Please do keep a critical eye on what I will come up in the process
|
|
|
Post by malteser60 on Jul 11, 2011 13:27:42 GMT
For me smux when it comes to things like what types of wood to give our degus it's not so much mollycoddling or not but what's going to harm the degus and what isn't. So, some woods will be toxic, ergo do not give it to them. I do agree that we need to be sure before we put a wood on the safe list.
I think what causes confusion is that different species of the same genus may produce different effects. Take the willow for example. One type is a no no, the other is perfectly ok and can be bought from pet shops. However what do you do on a website? Mention the two different types of species hoping that nobody will confuse the matter, or just to be on the safe side say to avoid all willow. If you choose the latter though, you will get the confusion whereby people will read on the website to avoid willow, then go into the petshop and see willow sticks for sale. Or do you explain about the difference in the species, then hope that people reading it are 'switched on' enough to understand it. And believe me, I've come across quite a few people that are definitely not 'switched on'!
My opinion, just state the facts, no second guessing, nothing.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jul 11, 2011 13:42:13 GMT
At the moment I estimate that we will be able to extend the list of reliably safe woods to between 20 and 25. This will be an enormous advance from the four “allowed” by degutopia. I think we should therefore err on the side of caution. Malteser, I agree that it can be confusing if different species of the same genus can be safe or (suspected to be) toxic. In these cases we should better exclude the genus as a whole from the safe wood list, with the one exception of weeping willow (simply because products are available in the pet supplies trade) which should come with a prominent warning that other willow species are not suitable.
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Jul 12, 2011 0:44:53 GMT
OK!! I've been reading through this, and wish I could say with certainty that I understand which woods you want me to add to our expanding list . . . but I have a significant disfunction of brain power resulting from a combined issue of forgotten meds (so blood sats are low today) and that lovely female moon thing. You'll just have to speak s l o w l y and then I'm sure I'll catch on just fine . . . I think . . . maybe. What was I saying?
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Jul 12, 2011 18:45:39 GMT
I think if there is a consensus on the german sites that a particular wood is safe because they have been using it for years without noticing any problems, then that is a very good indiciator that it is safe, it's good enough for me anyway
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jul 12, 2011 22:02:13 GMT
deguconvert - Two woods should go onto the safe list straight away. 1) Pear. This is on all German safe wood lists and is also found amongst the smaller set of woods that are particularly recommended. 2) Lime / linden tree. This is also found on all safe wood lists and we also have molette's experience with it. I will - over time - dig up what information I can found on the German sites and where appropriate in the scientific literature. If there is a strong consensus for a particular wood, I agree with molette that this should be enough to include it in our safe woods list. If the picture is less clear, and if there is conflicting information for species belonging to the same genus, it should be discussed whether these are to be included in our list. I only posted the list of the woods I am going to seek more information about so that people can add others that I may have overlooked but which may be of wider interest (this is in particular a question for members in North America).
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Jul 12, 2011 23:00:02 GMT
Super!! I will get those two on right away!
|
|