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Post by saggy on Sept 12, 2022 14:18:12 GMT
Hopefully it's not too bad and maybe they can put a bit of glue on it, I would have thought worst case is a whiff of gas to put a couple of stitches in but I would hope that's not necessary. I think her weird behaviour after the surgery was mainly down to the general anaesthetic, so she shouldn't have to face that again. I've looked at the website and I don't see anything that actually suggests grains for the Versele laga Complete degu, it looks ok to me, the VL Degu Nature also seems to be grain free but it has bits in they can eat selectively and seems to have quite a lot of peas in. Rosewood Naturals Meadow Menu for degus is grain free so I think you could look for that as well as the guinea one, if that widens the search. It looks like JR Farm Grainless Guinea still exists but maybe not easy to find, that's a quad pellet that looks very similar to the Rosewood. Hi Molette I've learnt vegetable extract can often be wheat derived especially in Europe and derivatives of vegetable origin can also be questionable. They always used to state grain free on many of their products and still state without cereals with their Degu Nature so think the way they now miss this on their website/packaging on their complete means it likely has grains in I would imagine. I tried the Rosewoods degu years ago and for some reason, they wouldn't touch it with a bargepole no matter how many days they went hungry - and I am extremely stubborn and will wait it out for days without budging without an ounce of guilt until they give up lol. I would be happy to stick to the rosewood guinea but as mentioned, because shops are seemingly not stocking it anymore, and only on amazon, I'm wondering whether it's been discontinued and is older stock as they seem to eat less and less of each pellet now - couple of nibbles and drop it. I suppose it still smells good so probably okay but always seemed to be something they were missing if they were just on this. After writing the above, it appears still in manufacture and just seemingly changed stockists from where I used to buy it (no longer with Pets@home or the range etc but now stocked by wilko and Jollyes and so on) I think the VS crispy pellets are likely way past their sell by date even though I found a few odd stockists left and seemingly no longer produced - it has lost it's smell even though newly opened packet so possibly not worth even giving them the rest I have regardless. JR farm grainless guinea was always okay but as you mentioned, hard to get hold of. Zooplus was always so great for everything but they're not worth ordering from anymore as they just do less and less of what I used to order - shame. Wish we could just join the EU again ;-) The VL Degu Nature I suppose would have to do but there's just too many bits I'm trying to avoid as every days items, especially the parsnips for Fatsy but I suppose I shall just have to sit there picking it out while watching a film :-D
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Post by saggy on Sept 12, 2022 14:34:37 GMT
Actually - although rosewood listed on Wilkos and Jollyes, it's not available on the first and barely any stock to order from Jollyes so perhaps I'm right?
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Post by teemu on Sept 12, 2022 14:59:18 GMT
Good to hear that they didn't need to do anything strenuous to her this time. Now just keep everything normal and let her settle back. You're doing great!
Fatsy can sense that her sister is scared and stressed, so when something exceptional happens, she's much more liable to start freaking out as well. For future trips, I'm not sure if I can recommend putting them in the carrier together. My experience is that degus can become really freaked out and lash out at each other if you force them into a small space. I tried to take my boys to the vet together so that Pulla could keep Munkki company while he was being operated, but they actually started fighting on the trip there. On the return trip, we had to put Pulla in a cardboard box. Similarly, when I brought my three girls home from the pet store, they were screaming and fighting the whole way. I think it's just a stress response. "Trapped rats" comes to mind as a saying.
But that's just my experience. Obviously it did not happen this time, and it's entirely possible that it won't happen the next time either in case you end up doing it. Just thought I'd mention it, since I was really surprised at how hard they freaked out over it...
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Post by saggy on Sept 12, 2022 15:24:01 GMT
Hi Teemu
Thanks for the encouragement - honestly.
She was fine when we first went to Vets a couple of weeks back for the vet to look at tumour before surgery booked so unsure why she stressed so much this time. They've never had a fight in the carrier even when my other one died with various trips or when they had severe fights in the young degu stage and needed treatment for injuries - they just huddle when they're scared and sit as close as they can to me (it even stopped them fighting for a bit when they were seriously fighting years ago because they all had to go to the dreaded vets for treatment) but I will take that into account just in case. Although since they were around two, they won't ever fight if I'm there either - only if I'm not there (they will stop immediately if I walk in mid-squabble and pretend they're friends sitting next to each other both shaking, visibly angry, hair raised and perhaps with an evident tuft of hair still in one mouth with the odd slight kick from the back leg that they think I won't see but obviously pretending in the hope that I'll leave the room so they can continue their squabble - and this can go on for hours if I don't leave) lmao :-D.
It seemed to help little one but perhaps it's better for her to come back to a chilled Fatsy next time :-D
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Post by moletteuk on Sept 13, 2022 13:27:32 GMT
It's a bit scary how little regulation there is for ingredients lists for pets compared to the EU regs for humans. I suppose it is probably a grey area if they are using wheat chaff/ straw/ waste materials which is likely contaminated with some grain. I hope the manufacturer gets back to you. Don't the packets even have manufacturing dates or use by dates on them? I thought they usually did when I last bought any, admittedly 3 or 4 years ago.
I guess a lot fewer people are keeping degus in the UK since Pets@home stopped selling them, so demand has probably dropped on top of Brexit problems. It'll be a bummer if the healthier ones are the ones that get dropped.
If you get stuck you could explore the Pre Alpin products sold for tortoises, but I don't think they have any vitamins added, so you would need to supplement vitamin d at least.
I hope Little One and Fatsy are doing OK today.
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Post by saggy on Sept 13, 2022 17:53:30 GMT
Hi Molette
Thanks, yes, I can see a fair few more grain free guinea pig ones but a fair amount of soy and no info on calcium phospherous ratios. You're pretty good with this stuff, if I post the ingredients in the food section, would you be happy to comment?
Little one is good. Not having the pain meds yesterday did stop her from running so figured that would work for a few more days. I had to go to work today and since I came back, she's unfortunately running and darting everywhere, even jumping onto higher things she's never jumped on before in a "whee I can move and do anything" kind of way (even stood on top of the mineral block which I didn't think actually possible and not really sure how to stop her with the exception of enclosing her in a really boring part of the cage without even a ramp!!
However, Fatsy is just not right. She seems sad, sleepy and just not herself - not running in an attempt to get treats etc. Maybe too many treats the past week has caught up with her - especially yesterday as was trying to give them whatever on trip to vets. She's still eating but just not excited to be and not staying so long at food bowl etc. She normally eats all her seeds and then goes to little one's bowl once done and continues but this morning she finished and went to sit elsewhere before little one even finished. She's wanting comfort from me too more than usual. I just don't know what to think as can't see anything particularly wrong. I'm not going to give them anything but there normal diet since we got back from vets yesterday and hopefully will pass. Ahhh what do you do!!
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Post by savvy on Sept 13, 2022 18:08:49 GMT
Has Fatsy been on heat in the last couple of days, if so, it can really drain their energy levels for a couple of days.
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Post by teemu on Sept 13, 2022 19:01:41 GMT
It sounds like she might have been really spooked by the vet. Animals often learn to associate vets with stress, bad times and general discomfort. It may well take a couple of days for her to realise that everything is back to normal and fine.
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Post by saggy on Sept 13, 2022 19:05:55 GMT
Hi Savvy
I'm not sure they go on heat these days - I had just assumed they were too old now as they stopped with the cranky side every 21 days some months back. She always used to get antsy rather than drained anyway and go looking for squabbles - she was always restless when hormonal?
I'm beginning to get a sneaky feeling she's doing it on purpose or for my attention? I left the room and heard her suddenly running (little one is more nimble and not so ploddy) and when I sliently came back in and she finally saw me, she quickly jumped off and reverted to depressed, downtrodden and sluggish and thinking about it, the slumping is always somewhere where I can see her even if it means she has to change location because I've moved somewhere else in the room. Perhaps she figured sad/sick degus get more treats and attention - I wouldn't put it past her.
And even when she was in the carrier yesterday and seemingly shocked/scared - she still lifted her arm up in the way that they do when I tickled her underneath and I would assume she wouldn't do that if she was that stressed as normally only when really relaxed??
I don't work Wednesdays so can keep a close eye on them tomorrow at least and see how they both are.
Little one Won't stop eating lol - she's even demolished the two bowls of boring nuggets.
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Post by saggy on Sept 17, 2022 22:29:09 GMT
Hiya Guys Just an update. She's been doing really well and already back up to 198g which I think is probably more than can be expected in such a short amount of time. There's a small raised area left but I'm not going to get too concerned as this is where a larger scab remains so hopefully that will go down later once healed and not a cyst/abscess etc. Either her or Fatsy have groomed the scabs off and sticking out stitches themselves! She's not scratching it so much anymore. I'm assuming there's little chance of infection now so have stopped panicking and just keep my fingers crossed that the tumour won't come back. They've been back on carb free diet and as little sugar as possible since we last spoke but it's really amazing and horrifying what just a few days of carbs can do. Little one definitely developed some small cataracts but can still see fine - in fact she seems to have gained a new lease of life and is jumping off me onto radiators and so on - which is actually unlike her considering her general nervousness!! Sadly, it appears Fatsy can't see at all anymore and is maybe why she seemed so weird for a few days and stressed more than she usually would in the carrier - I suppose it's more disorientating when you can't see what's going on. I'm hoping that maybe they'll reverse a little so she can see again but will assume if not, she'll be okay enough? I'm guessing I should be careful about changing things around in the cage now? but is there anything else I need to be conscious of or need to do once blind? Will she still be happy enough? I can see that Little one likes Fatsy to sleep over her naked part now - anyone have any idea of how long it will take for her fur to grow back - do I need to keep her warmer that usual in the meantime as the colder weather comes in? I've added some photos for you to see her wound now :-)
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Post by saggy on Sept 17, 2022 22:33:34 GMT
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Post by teemu on Sept 17, 2022 23:02:27 GMT
Oh, she's doing very well indeed! The whole thing has basically closed up, and that scab shouldn't give you any hard time at all at this point. If it starts to get red around the area or the other signs of infection, you might have to do something about it, but I'd say it's very unlikely at this point. You've done really well with all this From the pictures, it looks that Little One is already pushing up new fur (I can see some fuzz on the skin), so it should not take too long for the whole thing to be covered up again. Blindness would explain why Fatsy has been so stressed. If she can't even see, she'd have a really hard time understanding what's going on with all this, especially when she's taken to a strange place that smells weird and is full of sounds she does not know. I don't know about blind degus specifically, but I've kept blind or near-blind rodents before, and as long as the environment is controlled and familiar, they tend to do very well. So keeping the cage the same and essentially making sure that there are no large falls or stuff like that will go a long way. You'll also want to be careful of making strange noises or touching her without warning or things like that, because she might get spooked. Just, generally making sure that she has a familiar environment where she feels safe.
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Post by savvy on Sept 17, 2022 23:04:39 GMT
My Ruby the Foody is blind from cataracts so I may be able to help. Their whiskers are super sensitive so she uses those to navigate around the cage, although I try to keep everything where it is. Her biggest problem is the water bottle, but she locates the spout by slowly moving along the bars until she reaches it and then follows it down to the end.
She's super nervous if I happen to get too close with my hands which is understandable, and she'll squeak and run off.
Ramps and gaps are obviously a big worry and she has dropped through to the next level when she's not been concentrating on where she is or what she's doing.
All in all, degus can deal with blindness quite well, so I wouldn't worry too much.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 17, 2022 23:24:28 GMT
I'm so pleased to see how well she is looking!! SO AWESOME!!
I ditto Savvy!
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Post by moletteuk on Sept 18, 2022 10:48:18 GMT
Wow! I'm so pleased Little One is doing so well, she looks great! Well done you for providing such good care and balancing food and pain killers so well to allow such a remarkable turnaround. The fur should grow fairly quickly into some kind of covering and from memory maybe 6 to 8 weeks to be fully grown. I am wondering if they are overgrooming it a little as some areas look like the fuzz is coming back quicker than others, nothing to be done about that though, and I like thier teamwork with Fatsy covering the bare patch when they sleep. As long as they have some kind of nest she should be warm enough.
It's interesting and a bit scary how sensitive your goos are to food (and I think meds in the past too). My last degu ate more or less whatever she wanted for her last year because she had a tumour that whole time and I wasn't expecting her to live so long, she never seemed to have any ill effects at all from the high calorie diet but I do credit her appetite for fresh grass and forage during this time for allowing her to get away with the rest of the diet.
Looks like I forgot to say yes, that I will look at any ingredients lists for you!
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