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Post by saggy on Sept 11, 2022 11:41:58 GMT
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Post by saggy on Sept 11, 2022 11:46:10 GMT
I'll answer as best I can, but may miss a couple of points. Switch the oats, buckwheat etc for nuts and sunflower seeds. This should help her appetite and reduce the carbs, metacam can make them feel slightly sick and she has been through a lot. She will be very wary of anyone touching the op site, so its natural for her to want to protect it. Technically she has an injury so again, she'll sleep as sleep is the best healer. As long as the wound doesn't look red, swollen or is hot to the touch or weeping, it should be ok. Has the vet given her antibiotics as well as metacam? Thanks Savvy She was falling sideways to the opposit side so that's why I was wondering whether she was just used to counterbalancing the weight of the tumour by leaning to the other side. She let me prod it a little which is why I noticed a little fluid build up but this seems to have gone down now too. She's not on antibiotics. How many nuts and seeds shall I give her? Like one peanut a day and a couple of sunflower seeds? It needs to be a balance of what I can get away with giving Fatsy too as don't want food rage/grudges? Thanks again, Sarah
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Post by saggy on Sept 11, 2022 11:51:25 GMT
Like Savvy, I would also recommend switching to nuts and seeds. They have a lot of fat and calories in them, so they should actually be better with helping her gain lost weight. I would not recommend feeding her spinach or other greens right now, because she is already in a weakened state and that could upset her stomach. In case you are worried about iron and the like, peanuts actually contain quite a bit of it (actually more than spinach or the like). Since she is old and small, it will take her a long time to mend, and the most important thing is to make sure that she suffers no other issues during this time and gets a lot of nutrients. Encouraging her to eat hay when possible is also good, since that will keep her stomach working well. Essentially, I would not try to make any large changes to her diet in general now. Unless she actually starts to show signs of some serious issues that require correcting, getting back to normalcy with the food, with added sunflower seeds and nuts to help her build weight, is the right move. 20 grams of tumor sounds very plausible. My Pulla had a mass that, when removed, slimmed him up by at least that much. I would wait with the sand bath until after the wound has closed up completely. They often pee in the sand, and it's not sterile in any case, so it would be very dangerous if any of the sand got into the wound site right now. Keep monitoring the drying skin, and contact the vet if it starts to become a big issue. If they have an email or other way to contact them, you could send them a picture of the injury site and ask for their opinion. All in all, things sound like they're going quite well. It's normal for there to be a bit of fluid build up or some irritation, as long as it does not progress into actual infection or another serious complication.
In case you're worried about what an infected wound site can look like, here is a picture of my Munkki after he was castrated (this led to complications due to an allergic reaction to the sutures used, and he suffered serious infections). This is some days after the initial situation, when it turned out that the wound was suffering from serious complications:
Hi Teemu Thanks for the pic - I know these things but it's hard to not panic with animals as they can't tell you anything. The photo you gave has reassured me as apart from some very slight flecks of red here and there, it's not looking like your photo. Hope Munkki was okay after. Perfect, I've got her some peanuts - perhaps one a day do you mean? If she rests, I've been plonking a small amount of hay right in front of her face and she got the message and is eating it reluctantly :-D
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Post by saggy on Sept 11, 2022 11:54:43 GMT
I've just realized that I haven't read all the posts here, and had completely missed the photos of her wound and your replies, Saggy. That is such a big wound, the poor little love!! Little wondered she was so altered in her behaviors for a couple of days. She would have been somewhat altered anyway, because anesthetic is hard on them, but her body would have been feeling very strange and unnatural, and as you said she may also have been feeling claustrophobic because of unfamiliar hands holding her and being wrapped. I am so glad she is beginning to behave a little more like herself. You are taking very good care of her! Thanks Deguconvert She also went back to banging the noisy bell for 10 minutes either for my attention or to irritate me which is also more normal behaviour and must mean she's feeling more confident to make such a racket out in the open :-P
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Post by savvy on Sept 11, 2022 11:55:02 GMT
I have a similar problem with Ruby the Foody and Sphene. I need to get Sphene's weight back up as she has a growth in her mouth and is currently on metacam, but I daren't let Ruby get any fatter.
What I do, which works for me, is segregate Sphene when I give her her meds, while she's segregated I can weigh her and give her extra treats. She currently has about 6 sunflower seeds, 6 small pumpkin seeds and about a quarter of a hazelnut, with the occasional flaked pea. She eats these while she is on the scales which helps solve the problem of her keeping still long enough to weigh her.
With this regime she has gone from 185g to 204g, but we've done it gradually so she's building weight not fat.
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Post by saggy on Sept 11, 2022 12:15:40 GMT
Sorry I've been absent, you've done really well to get Little One to this point, hopefully you are over the worst now. I think your girls have had oil seed mixes before, haven't they? I would try those again for their mineral content and fatty acids. And any mix of dry forage, the alfalfa is worth a try. You may have to compromise on the carbs, when my degus were unwell or really old all they really wanted was carbs, roots and dried veg can be a good option. My old and sick degus also all developed a taste for fresh grass, which is really good for them if you introduce very slowly. I think her weight is surprisingly good given the removal of the mass itself and the ordeal of the last few days, so overall I would just aim mostly to get her back on her normal diet. If she gets carried away on the wheel I would consider removing it. You might be able to see if her movement is pulling on the wound. I think a few minutes is OK though. In your position I don't think I would pay for the histology, the tumour will come back or it won't so I don't think the type of tumour would help with any future decisions. There's nothing really to be done about her teeth or flaky skin at the moment. Concentrate on checking she is ok in herself and wound care. She would normally have been on antibiotics post op, has this been the case? Hi Molette Thanks, yes she's eating her normal degu seed mix as usual. I've ordered some alfalfa but struggling to find decent forage nearby. They're not impressed with the ones I bought from Pets@home and pretty much ignore it. I'll try and get some dandelion root too as always liked that. I think I have to stay away from the carbs as she has developed a small cataracts but also Fatsy, who's had large ones for a while definitely got worse too and I'm pretty certain she can see less than what she could last week. I would have continued with oats and things if she was still struggling to eat but she's having no issue with her normal foods now. THere's not really anywhere I can get fresh grass from as don't have a garden and I wouldn't trust any from parks nearby as anything could be on them (live in built up city). I can grow them from seeds though as they do like that, just will take a while to grow but am on it. They've had a few dried beans and carrots and fresh sugar snap peas but want to keep them away from parsnips or things with even more sugars. Thanks for your opinion on the histology, yes I think it's not worthwhile for the cost and will leave it. I've added some photos above of the wound site today and kinda happy with it. No anitbiotics were prescribed and I suppose I would rather leave them unless necessary rather than take them as a precaution perhaps. I'm going to be sending the photos to the vets later today and will see what they think too. Okay, she ran a little longer last night so I think I'll leave it in as long as it's no more than 15 mins once per day. I kept telling her no last night and she would look annoyed and jump off but then couldn't resist jumping straight back on. But overall, it was no more than 15 minutes per day. I've got to leave them alone for 12 hours tomorrow so a little worried about doing so but will check on her in the morning and see how she is. I'm struggling to get decent grain free pellets too so do you have a recommendation? I've still been using the rosewood guinea and the older versele laga crispy pellets in the pink and white bags but no shops seem to sell these anymore as a current stock and I'm pretty certain these are just old stock now so there vitamin quality is questionable and they've gone more and more off them. I looked at the versele laga complete and zoo plus claim they are grain free but versele laga website and packaging no longer make this claim (which they always used to) so don't think it is grain free. I've emailed versele laga to ask but am waiting for a response. Do you happen to know. I need to keep them grain and wheat/gluten free. Many thanks again, Sarah
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Post by teemu on Sept 11, 2022 12:20:39 GMT
As for the amounts of seeds and the like, my opinion is that you do not need to be very careful with them right now. Nuts and seeds are fatty and rich, which is why they're usually given in moderation, but stuff like peanuts or sunflower seeds or stuff like that is not something that will make the degus ill, even if they get more in an exceptional situation like this. It'll put weight on them, but that's not a big worry for a small degu that needs to get back on her feet. You can certainly afford to give her a peanut and some sunflower seeds when you tend to her. Not huge amounts, and it's better to do this gradually like Savvy says, but you don't need to be overly worried about being conservative with the seeds right now.
In case you're worried about Fatsy getting angry about others getting treats while she doesn't, maybe you could do it so that you separate them for the feeding and give Fatsy a small portion, while the Little One gets to eat more out of sight? One thing to note is that degus have great eyesight and are very smart, so doing this so that Fatsy can't actually see how much she's getting would be a good idea. But if she can't actually confirm how much the other is being given, then it'd probably be alright?
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Post by teemu on Sept 11, 2022 12:22:18 GMT
Oh, and the wound site looks really great today as well. No infection or irritation from what I can tell. Considering she's getting no antibiotics, it's doing really well!
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Post by savvy on Sept 11, 2022 12:23:31 GMT
Try bunny bistro for forage. www.bunnybistro.co.uk/ their forage mixes are really good, but their degu and chinchilla one has dried veg in it, so I'd avoid that one.
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Post by saggy on Sept 11, 2022 12:41:50 GMT
I have a similar problem with Ruby the Foody and Sphene. I need to get Sphene's weight back up as she has a growth in her mouth and is currently on metacam, but I daren't let Ruby get any fatter. What I do, which works for me, is segregate Sphene when I give her her meds, while she's segregated I can weigh her and give her extra treats. She currently has about 6 sunflower seeds, 6 small pumpkin seeds and about a quarter of a hazelnut, with the occasional flaked pea. She eats these while she is on the scales which helps solve the problem of her keeping still long enough to weigh her. With this regime she has gone from 185g to 204g, but we've done it gradually so she's building weight not fat. Thanks Savvy I've not had any issue weighing her as I just plonk the scales in the cage and Little one quickly jumps on and starts licking - that's why I know she's low in something or more as they lick the weirdest of things when they are. What she could be getting from a salter scale, who on earth knows!! I've been giving them the treats in seperate parts of the cage and giving Fatsy a smaller amount of whatever it is I'm giving Little one which distracts her for a while but Fatsy can hear her munching for longer and soon goes to investigate and I have to stand over and warn her to leave her alone while little one finishes. For the Oats, I was blocking her access completely but again, she was only just allowing it and getting very antsy and only just avoiding grudges or not taking it out on little one - which is actually good for Fatsy and I cannot afford sqabbles at the mo (there was a minor one the day before she had the surgery and Fatsy accidentally cut open her tumour a little). I have to give her something as she can smell exactly what these things are from a mile away and knows exactly what is in which cupboard or fridge almost down to knowing what's in each particular tupperware box. I think her cataracts giving her less eyesight has increased her food sense too lol! I'm not sure it would be good to take Little one to a different room neither as might stress her a little - perhaps I could give it a try but Fatsy was already getting a little faffed about the extra attention to little one the past week so I've made an effort to give her more too. Fatsy is not as fat as he used to be as did decide to start exercising in her old age for some reason so no longer has the rolls of fat and I've kept her near completely carb free since the cataracts showed up so I don't mind her putting on a little weight but I really need to avoid anything making her cataracts or overall health worse. I'm assuming seeds and nuts aren't so bad in this regard but let me know if they are. Many thanks again, Sarah
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Post by savvy on Sept 11, 2022 12:55:36 GMT
To be very gross, what she's licking is where she or Fatsy have pee'd.
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Post by teemu on Sept 11, 2022 13:12:29 GMT
You could try if the Little One would be okay eating on your hands near the cage. Some of the degus I have are fine with eating while I hold them or have them on my lap, and others are not. Being held by a person she trusts would stress her out way less than being taken to a different place to eat. If that works, you can then placate Fatsy by giving her a small bit of treat when you put Little One back.
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Post by saggy on Sept 11, 2022 13:17:50 GMT
To be very gross, what she's licking is where she or Fatsy have pee'd. Lovely lol. I don't think they've peed on it though and it's only in there for a minute. Ewwww!!
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Post by saggy on Sept 11, 2022 13:31:52 GMT
You could try if the Little One would be okay eating on your hands near the cage. Some of the degus I have are fine with eating while I hold them or have them on my lap, and others are not. Being held by a person she trusts would stress her out way less than being taken to a different place to eat. If that works, you can then placate Fatsy by giving her a small bit of treat when you put Little One back. Yeah, I'll try a few things including that. Little one has no issue with sitting on me for food or otherwise but I think Fatsy would need to be fed first otherwise she'll be launching herself at the cage door. It seems I don't have to worry about Fatsy's weight as much at the mo as suddenly remembered she's running like a loony the past week. When she started getting cataracts and having problems from just being so fat after Tweeny died, I decided to try and link running on the wheel with treats and getting attention from me. So that's all she's been doing all week come to think of it - running whilst looking straight at me in a "me, me, me and where's more of dem oat things" kinda way so she's looking pretty slender this week. Just weighed her and she's 230 which is actually a little less than usual (normally 250 since she took up excercise and used to be 300+) and been so distracted hadn't really thought about the fact that the link attempt had actually been sucessful :-D Little one is now up to 182g which is 4g in two days. And she doesn't look quite like the bag of bones she appeared to be before the surgery so definitely much improvements there.
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Post by saggy on Sept 11, 2022 13:36:45 GMT
Oh, and the wound site looks really great today as well. No infection or irritation from what I can tell. Considering she's getting no antibiotics, it's doing really well! Thanks so much, it's make me feel so much better/relieved to have someone else's opinion on it
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 11, 2022 23:29:20 GMT
I was thinking the same thing as Teemu said . . . her wound is looking pretty good!
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Post by saggy on Sept 12, 2022 7:59:05 GMT
Aahhh, the stiching comes away/loose at one end so will have to take her back to vets as seems a bit too early for this also seems a bit scratchy/irritated with the area. Really do hope they think antibiotics are necessary.
I'm sure she's acting a bit weird but not sure if it's me projecting or reacting to me as I stressed quite a bit when saw it!
I hope she doesn't become too traumatised again as she was doing so well and really hope she doesn't have to go under again :-(
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Post by moletteuk on Sept 12, 2022 9:47:10 GMT
Hopefully it's not too bad and maybe they can put a bit of glue on it, I would have thought worst case is a whiff of gas to put a couple of stitches in but I would hope that's not necessary. I think her weird behaviour after the surgery was mainly down to the general anaesthetic, so she shouldn't have to face that again.
I've looked at the website and I don't see anything that actually suggests grains for the Versele laga Complete degu, it looks ok to me, the VL Degu Nature also seems to be grain free but it has bits in they can eat selectively and seems to have quite a lot of peas in. Rosewood Naturals Meadow Menu for degus is grain free so I think you could look for that as well as the guinea one, if that widens the search. It looks like JR Farm Grainless Guinea still exists but maybe not easy to find, that's a quad pellet that looks very similar to the Rosewood.
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Post by teemu on Sept 12, 2022 11:54:08 GMT
It sounds like her nails might have caught on the stiches and pulled some loose. The surface stitches would already be weakening (skin heals pretty quickly), so it's not too surprising. Depending on how it looks, the vet might just put some temporary glue on it. I think Moletteuk is right that they likely won't need to put her to sleep, just sedate her a bit. Or if the wound looks like it's closing well, they might even decide not to stich again.
You can use this opportunity to also bring up your observations about her behavior and ask their opinion on it. And do mention that she was very stressed about it the last time, because that should figure into their decisions about how to treat her.
In any case, you've been doing a great job! I know things like this are very stressful, especially when the animal is also all stressed and confused by what has happened, but you've been keeping the ship steady and doing all the right things. It's very easy to start second-guessing every behavior and thing you see happening now, since you're worried about her and scared that she might have something wrong with her. But the fact is that she's moving, eating, drinking and doing well with her wound, so everything is going in the right direction. It's not uncommon for stitches on animals to get frayed or come loose, that's just something that unfortunately happens with these things. It's an easy fix, and the main thing is that she's otherwise doing very well.
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Post by saggy on Sept 12, 2022 13:38:25 GMT
Thanks Teemu and Molette
Sorry I meant hope they don't think it necessary for them to give antibiotics earlier!
We just got back and they were still pretty happy with it. Although a couple of stitches undone and sticking out, they said that it wasn't one long lot of stitching anyway as had to do botch job and that even if a couple come out, the others won't follow as did seperate ones. Although early, they seemed happy to leave it as is where it seems to have healed so well and not seperating - said to try and stop her moving so much fo a few more days just in case and to go back if I see it seperating or changing for any reason. They didn't want to try and cut the loose stitch material off for now as can only use scalpal and couldn't guarantee she'll stay still enough so they would rather leave it as is. They said to dab the base/scabs with water of where they are a couple of times a day to try and slowly soften and dislodge the scabbing and the stich material will likely fall off with the scabs.
Although the area is redder at the top etc, they think it's because she's agitating it more with her foot especially now some are loose/sticking out and obviously she has some bunched up skin from rushed stitching but they didn't think an infection was present as it stood. They said to take her off the metacam from now and see if her scratching goes down etc. This might help her not run so much too as always goes for a run a little after pain meds.
Although her behaviour was erratic after I saw the stitches - I suppose she could have realised my heart and adrenalin were up and reacted in responce as she was fine just before this point but I didn't know when they had come off in the previous two hours - she had been snoozing with Fatsy so there is the chance that Fatsy was chewing things she shouldn't be.
Little One was very stressed to be take away again but strangely, Fatsy did not take it at all well this time and wouldn't even eat a hazelnut while there (took her to try and keep little one calmer) but they are both seemingly okay now - perhaps she thought it was her turn to be shaved and mutilated lol? Or maybe the state of Little one affected her more than I assumed. They started coming round in the car on the way home as they seem to have figured out that second car journey means going home and apart from Fatsy being very snoozy and clingy to me, they don't seem too bad thereafter - eating, drinking and just snoozing. Little one is more active than Fatsy and already banging her bell at me - she's been doing it 10 minutes now.
However, one very strange thing happened I've not see before. At the point I was getting Little One into the carrier to take her to the vets, one of her eyes filled with something white/milky - not gunky, just like white tears. She was excessively stressed at this moment and was trying everything not to go back in the carrier. It only lasted a minute or two before it all cleared away and nothing since - no dampness or anything else of note. I mentioned it to the vet nurse whom didn't really know what that might have been and couldn't see anything wrong with eye etc but she said keep an eye on it and if it doesn't happen again, they aren't that concerned.
It's so hard when being a single mum as don't really have anyone to share the stress, worries and decisions with so just having you guys to vent and talk to helps more than you can realise so many thanks for your patience and all your advice and help. It's not helping that I've had a heart/autonomic nervous system issue (they say from long covid) and although it's better, I still seem to have an excessive stress responce at the mo which just kicks it all back off.
Okay, so will take your advice and keep saying to myself, moving/eating/drinking - don't panic :-D
Sarah
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