jr
Foraging Degu
Posts: 90
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Post by jr on Jan 18, 2017 16:40:40 GMT
Good afternoon - I hope everyone is well!
I have a 2 year old (pretty much 2 today) degu who has dental issues with long incisors and overgrown molars/spurs etc. I have taken her to the vet once before in late November and they sorted out her teeth and reported no great issues. After a couple of days of feeling a bit miserable she returned to her normal eating patterns etc.
I noticed some recurring teeth discomfort 2 weeks ago and clearly overgrown as of last Friday, so I took her to the vet today for her teeth again. I know this is sooner than ideal, but there you go. Anyway, they went to perform the same treatment, but before doing it the vet called me up to suggest the possibility of euthanasia. I was a bit surprised the vet wanted to euthanise her so soon!? She is only just 2 years old and the sole reason was because of mouth sourness, bad awkward spurs and a loose tooth meaning that the vet believed her quality of life was adversely effected.
She had only been at all miserable for the past 3 days, but still running happily around when given freedom etc. Given what I have read on here about other people's degu tooth troubles, ongoing and otherwise, this seemed super soon compared to them who sound worse than mine! She has lost quite a bit of weight, but she was a BIT chubby before so I don't know if this made the vet think she's at death's door compared to then. I'm a bit disturbed by the notion of euthanasia like that after just 2 times sorting her teeth. I gather her teeth are indeed bad and when they overgrow she is miserable, but the way they were described does not sound as bad as some on the boards who are still going relatively strong so I'm not sure what to make of this.
When I went to collect her the vet further explained that her rear teeth were too hard to get to and still overgrown/slightly holding her jaw open. Presumably they won't be interested in treating her again when this inevitably recurs in a month of so and implied as much. Does anyone know of a vet who specialises in degus in the London/Sevenoaks/SE area please? Ideally they would actively specialise. For example I live not too far from Sevenoaks and Elands is listed as a specialist degu vet on Degutopia, but their degu person left years ago and the others had no particular experience beyond typical small mammal treatment.
I really want the opinion of someone who definitely knows their stuff about degu teeth before I give up on my youngish degu who is still full of beans otherwise!
Thanks very much!
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Post by bouncy on Jan 18, 2017 16:58:15 GMT
My goo specialist is a bit too far away, but perhaps @garfunkel&Tibbs85? I have an adult goo, who is probably one of the ones you've read about on here. It's NOT the end of the world. My little dude has molar roots growing up through his nasal cavities, seen from xrays. The vet said to just keep going. He's on daily pain relief (which he loves) and is otherwise happy. The goo vet said that a time may come when he's had enough, but that's certainly not now! He gets spurs trimmed, and gets over it quickly. I would suggest you consider a couple of things. First of all, did the vet take any xrays to get a look at the roots? Another vet, who gave him a general health check, said he can't have teeth issues because she could feel along the jawline. I now know that's not a given. The next thing to consider is diet. There has been a lot of research in recent times looking at the ideal ratio of potassium to calcium, and supporting a move to a more natural diet to help with tooth wear. If you are using a prepackaged food, have a look in the diet section for analysis. The third thing to consider is natural sunlight. Just like humans, they need UVA/UVB to help their bodies achieve the correct use of what they eat, thinking primarily of vitamin D. These rays don't filter through window glass. Again, there's a very helpful article, I think in the habitat section. I've moved all of my fuzzballs onto a natural diet, and have just made steps towards UV lighting, so it's possibly too early to tell, but I'm hoping it will make a difference. EDIT! deguworld.proboards.com/post/81515/thread - pre-made foods deguworld.proboards.com/post/104630/thread - dental health deguworld.proboards.com/post/122032/thread - Lighting
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jr
Foraging Degu
Posts: 90
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Post by jr on Jan 18, 2017 17:28:49 GMT
Thanks Bouncy
I was just a bit taken aback really - and now unsure whether I'm being cruel by keeping her alive or not when over the past 2 months I've never once thought that or even close! I know her well as I mainly work from home and though I know prey animals hide pain I'd like to think I know when her quality of life is actually down. Super confused at present.
It just seemed all a bit mad, I had to firmly persuade the vet not to put her down over the phone!
I'm not ridiculously far from CJ Hall in London (about an hour and 10 mins drive) and this degu is a very calm stress free one so a journey won't bother her - I have heard good things about them and especially the specialist equipment they have available so they may be able to treat her teeth more effectively.
They did not take an x-ray at any point. The vet said her rear molars are visually overlarge and pressing against each other and that they were growing unusually. I don't think they had the correct equipment to reach them, if any such equipment exists.
Man I'm just shocked - I was ready for her teeth to be a bit of a chronic problem, but never once entertained the idea of euthanasia.
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jr
Foraging Degu
Posts: 90
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Post by jr on Jan 18, 2017 17:31:04 GMT
Also thank you for the advice on diet etc - I use the Beaphar stuff and the definite problem with that is they pick and choose their favourite bits. Presently I'm trying to fatten her up if I'm to take her to CJ Hall in a couple of weeks so giving her that, hay and tiny soft oats that she can just outright swallow.
Once I get a more informed opinion on her teeth I'll look at lifestyle more.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2017 18:15:38 GMT
I can't advise you really but I hope you get the help you deserve. Emziedee is in your area so hopefully she'll help x
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Post by winic1 on Jan 18, 2017 18:43:50 GMT
You know your pet the best, if you don't think she's suffering, I'd bet you're right. Some vets are just idiots. When we got our first two budgies, one soon started showing signs of being sick. Took him to the nearby vet who did see birds. It was an infection easily treated with antibiotics.
But, right in front of my two kids, ages 8 and 12, this anal orifice says to me, "It's what, a $20 bird? Do you really want to bother spending the money on it to fix it?" Right in front of my kids who are worried about their first bird ever.
You can bet HE never saw us again, and I have readily offered my opinion of him to anyone I heard considering using him for any animal.
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Post by moletteuk on Jan 18, 2017 20:04:27 GMT
Check out vet thread for vet recommendations, CJ Hall are supposed to be excellent, but expensive, we have had a member use Beaumont Sainsbury Animal Hospital recently and were pleased, they were also expensive but are supposed to be more affordable than CJ Hall. You may do better for long term affordability if you look out of London. Probably worth phoning for experience levels and guide prices. I understand the back of the mouth can be difficult to reach sometimes, there can be a risk of damaging the jaw joint when they have to open the mouth really wide, we have had a couple of members who had to have degus put to sleep after damage to the jaw from surgery, so this is a real risk. But, I don't remember any reports of a good vet being unable to trim all the teeth before, so I think you should definitely seek a second opinion for your girl (name?) If you have been feeding Xtravital and they are selectively eating, you could have a serious diet issue with not enough calcium (and too much phosphorus). Briefly, you can improve the diet by feeding lots of forage in a variety, you can feed a high calcium seed mix, you can buy this from Ratrations or make your own using our charts deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15602/vegetable-seed-nut-nutrition-chartsWhile you figure things out you can change your Beaphar mix to Science Selective and JRFarm Grainless Guinea (or Rosewood Naturals Guinea/degu/chinchilla) and Versele Laga Crispy in some combination. To keep her eating and try and fatten her up right now, the seed mix will help, and you can feed a few more fatty ones that are well liked like hemp, milk thistle, pumpkin, sesame. You can also feed nuts, crush them up if that makes it easier for her. What is she like with moist food, could you try her on some Critical Care or Supreme Recovery? What is the enamel colour like on her teeth and cagemates' teeth?
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jr
Foraging Degu
Posts: 90
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Post by jr on Jan 18, 2017 20:46:16 GMT
Thank you for everybody's responses.
I will likely try CJ Hall because apparently they have specialist equipment for complex/referral chinchilla dental work that is adaptable to degus and I have a call with the vet tomorrow. The money is fine, nothing too good for the old degu, I just want a vet whose immediate response to dental difficulty isn't the needle really.
Ok perfect I will buy the Ratrations stuff asap - my degus did used to have Science Selective, but disregarded it ever since the Xtravital. I'm loathe to switch the one I need to fatten up over the next fortnight so will provide her with a large selection of foods. Their stubbornness over not eating things they don't enjoy is quite remarkable for small creatures who are supposed to get hungry quickly.
I put in some critical care each day, but she isn't much interested in it. The best success I have for the recovering degu right now is with finely chopped 100% oats that she can swallow almost whole. It's only the first day though obviously. She seems very knocked about after this visit... can't drink properly because her mouth hurts too much so only taking tiny droplets at a time. Depressing.
Both degus have consistent orange enamel so that's going for them at least.
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Post by moletteuk on Jan 18, 2017 20:59:45 GMT
Good that their teeth are orange They can indeed be very stubborn over food, the Science Selective is usually well liked, but by all means offer anything you can think of to tempt her to eat at the moment. Have you got some metacam painkiller to help her over the next few days? The old vet should give you some via a phonecall if you don't already have some. What weight is she? If she really needs some food quick, it might be worth considering trying syringe feeding her i.e. restraining her by wrapping her in a towel/ cloth and squirting the syringe into the side of her mouth.
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jr
Foraging Degu
Posts: 90
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Post by jr on Jan 18, 2017 21:10:13 GMT
I do have some metacam - every time she gets back from the vet she basically sits still huddled in a ball until about midnight so I don't want to disturb her from that position really. Is the only way to get them to take it by using a syringe in their mouth? They always seem to tell if you put it on food.
I have seen her eat the small oats I mentioned today in multiple visits (3) and though some just fell out of her presumably swollen mouth, she definitely took some down so I don't think I need to "force feed" her for today. The lack of water she's successfully taking in is another concern though so I'll have to consider syringe feeding her water or cc tomorrow. Stress stress stress.
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jr
Foraging Degu
Posts: 90
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Post by jr on Jan 18, 2017 22:32:34 GMT
Eurgh I noticed when I picked her up just now to syringe her metacam and critical care that she's actually really thin and boney to the touch. I had no idea because she doesn't like being picked up and is always fluffed up so clearly she hasn't been eating at all properly because of her teeth. I'm gutted and incredibly annoyed that it seems I haven't kept a proper eye on her. Would a vet like the one I mentioned provide boarding to give ongoing critical care to recuperate her as well as look to operate on teeth at a later date? I feel I can't necessarily give her good enough care when she's this thin. I'll call them to ask either way when they open.
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Post by savvy on Jan 18, 2017 23:33:50 GMT
If its of any help or comfort. I had to take one of my cats to a vet when she was about 6 months old. She had developed bald patches with scabby skin. The vet said that she was auto immune and advised me to have her put to sleep. I refused to let them.
I took her to a second vet who diagnosed ringworm. One course of tablets over 10 days and no further problems.
She died on 27th December 2016, aged 19years and 9months. And had a full and very pampered life.
Go with your instincts, you know her better than anyone and you will know if she is a little 'off.'. I always go for a 2nd opinion if there's doubt on the advice given by the first vet.
There are vets out there who will suggest euthenasia because they just can't be bothered doing any research on that particular problem or species.
You could try her with some baby food as its soft, you could always put some critical care and oats in with it.
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jr
Foraging Degu
Posts: 90
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Post by jr on Jan 19, 2017 8:50:31 GMT
Thank you I'm taking her to the other vets tomorrow and they will board her prior to care if necessary, though they thought it might not be despite what I said about how thin she is.
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Post by moletteuk on Jan 19, 2017 11:07:00 GMT
If you can manage it at all, then I think she would be better off at home with you and her cagemate. The vets is usually a stressful environment for a degu, dogs barking, unfamiliar people, no friend and familiar things around.
Have you weighed her, or kept any records of weights before? If not, try and weigh her on a kitchen scale, get her in a tube or box and weigh the whole lot and substract if that's easier. We tend to recommend regular weighing because as you have found, most degus don't like to be picked up, so it isn't always easy to catch watch loss early. Mine are trained to walk onto my hand for a treat, so I get an idea of weight but I still can't really feel body condition.
Metacam isn't usually too hard to hide on food because it doesn't taste too bad, but if she is struggling to eat, then the most reliable way to get it in is via syringe. You could try hiding it on a small piece of shredded wheat, a bit of verele laga Crock Herb treat, a piece of nut, on dried veg, on oats, etc
The syringe feeding gets easier with practice. Are you using a towel to wrap her up? We call this making a burrito, most of us find this is the easiest way to restrain a degu, the feeling of being enclosed all round seems to stop them struggling quite so much.
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jr
Foraging Degu
Posts: 90
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Post by jr on Jan 19, 2017 11:56:04 GMT
I would definitely not consider taking her to the vet for recuperative care if it was my other degu in question because she gets easily stressed. This one is quite odd and is not noticeably bothered by noise and/or weirdness and is fine alone too. She's very chill, particularly for a degu. I really want someone who is at least in a position to help to look at her teeth based on the shock yesterday. If she doesn't look well enough to travel I won't take her. My issue is what if she continues to lose weight with me before I get the vet to look at her rear molars, which need urgent treatment either way because they are holding her jaw open and stopping her eating. She tries to eat as often as usual, but the food more often than not just plops out of her mouth and she seems to give up rather than keep trying. Occasionally she will make a concerted effort to get something down and it takes a long time. Presumably this is just eating the bare minimum to survive. I was stressing over her lack of water intake and have helped her out with it, but I see degus can go for a while without water so half a day or so shouldn't be too hard on her. Yesterday after I syringe fed her she was taking the critical care out of the syringe by her own volition the next two times (she had 3ml total). Today she looks better than her post op self yesterday, but not interested in the critical care except for half a 1ml syringe so far. Seems annoyed by it. She may feel she's getting what she wants to eat as above, despite how little that is. I'm not sure whether to syringe feed her the critical care based on what I've said as she's so relaxed at present. She has got SOME food down. As I wrote this she took another ml of critical care (well less the amount that went on the floor...) I've set her up a little area next to the radiator because her cagemate keeps bothering her (not very understanding...), though she can come and go - she yearns for warmth presumably because she's so skinny so I have the thing on full blast and she loves it - she's taken up residence INSIDE the bag full of woodchips. I've attached a pic so you can see how thin she is now that she has her fur flat (normally it's all fluffed up). Her eye looks a bit irritated too today, though apparently dental pain can cause this!? God... it just amazes me AMAZES me that I hadn't noticed and as far as I knew she was 100% on Wednesday and acting absolutely normally. For her trip tomorrow I will put a heat pad in the carry cage. Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 13:24:30 GMT
Poor little thing, she looks extremely slender. She looks more ratty like. In what way is her cage mate bothering her? As long as it's not constant harassment to the point things get nasty I would say she's okay with her friend. It'll maybe bring her comfort being with other degus. I think perhaps the vet would be more stressful for her if she had to stay there than she'd physically let on. Yes it can irritate their eyes depending on the issue, I don't know too much about it, but I usually see eye irritation and dental problems going hand in hand.
How do you feel about putting her in a burrito and force feeding her as much as you can, regularly throughout the day? People use all sorts of stuff to get weight back on. Baby food as mentioned is usually well liked, and a consistency you could perhaps force feed. Does she have access to high calorie seeds? I'm sure she'd be able to lick those up if anything. Some of them in the mixes are tiny.
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jr
Foraging Degu
Posts: 90
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Post by jr on Jan 19, 2017 13:48:44 GMT
She is rather stretched out in that picture, but you're right she looks near enough emaciated. Failed her. Her cagemate jumps on her and half fights with her - she can't fight back much. She can go back and forth into her cage if she wants to and so can her cagemate - her cagemate only likes to come out for 30 mins at a time whereas this one can spend all day out so it works well for now I think. She sits on me quite a bit while I work. Re the seeds, would sunflower seeds be ok considering it'll be for a short time? I know they're not the best long term, but tasty and small would help as she doesn't normally eat seeds I don't think except for the stuff in the Xtravital mix. I've found she can manage cut up puffed oats just now, which is something. I think between her attempts at eating and the few syringes she takes naturally that burritoing might not be necessary. I think I'd only consider that if I did go the baby food route as then I know I'm really fattening her up at least. I'm really in two minds about tomorrow. Her eating and drinking is improving by the hour, but to "save her" long term I really feel her teeth need to be looked at correctly ASAP. I have no frame of reference for what form of emaciation is too late. Arggh. I'm still erring on the side of taking her maybe with the view that her recuperation will be more successful if they can improve her dental situation. Improving her like this will take a while or not at all. If she can eat it will take no time. I also gather the rear teeth treatment is still difficult even for specialists. She only recently had a weepy eye (past couple of days) so hopefully she does not have significant upward growth. Nightmare....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 14:09:16 GMT
No! Don't say that! You have not failed her! Don't think like that, you have to be positive. We ALL have problems with our degus. I have 4 that want to murder each other. It makes me feel crappy that I've tried for months and they won't be friends, you should see some of the injuries. One just a few days ago had her tail bitten off and her leg bitten open. I felt awful. But it's not my fault as it's not your fault. You haven't failed her. You've given her a lovely home. Dental issues are common with degus.
Okay. Is there anyway you can split the cage in 2? So they're separate but the poorly girl will still be able to have the comforts of her home?
Yes sunflower seeds are fine to fatten her up, there's nuts but nuts will probably be very hard for her to eat. There's a seed mix from ratrations.com a daily and a treat mix, a lot of us feed these mixes every day and they're brill. Lots of the seeds are tiny so I'm sure she could lick them up.
Have you tried giving her baby food and seeing if she eats it on her own?
I'd perhaps take her to the vet tomorrow. She's improving which is good, but as you said - improvements can go only so far. X
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jr
Foraging Degu
Posts: 90
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Post by jr on Jan 19, 2017 15:34:40 GMT
You're right plus negative thinking doesn't help her situation anyway. It's just that she's so full of life and had I played the last 2 months differently she might be just fine right now. I never should have switched her from the all in one degu food and huge amounts of hay to this selective eating stuff that has probably been the root cause of dental overgrowth, but I didn't really have a way of knowing how wrong I was at the time I suppose.
She goes in and out of the cage with her mate as it is, it's her mate who just doesn't like often coming out.
I bought some sunflower seeds but currently they just drop out of her mouth before she can get grinding them. I will try cutting them up finely later. I'm hoping there's some swelling yet to go down. I think her tongue must hurt because I've seen her twice drinking from her bottle using her tongue, very slowly and delicately and sometimes she stands by it thinking about using it, but doesn't. Once her tongue heals that might help with taking in smaller food. I have the ratration stuff on the way.
She's had 4ml of critical care today total, all voluntary. 0.1 ml of metacam just now so that the vet can give her some when I arrive if necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 15:43:21 GMT
Unfortunately nuggets aren't great for degus either. A diet of just nuggets and hay will lead to other medical problems for degus because of the amount of processed cereals found in nuggets, amongst other issues with them, like too low calcium etc.
Have a look at the SAB diet for future reference, if you Google "degu SAB diet" it'll come up.
This forum supports the 50/50 diet, it's on the diet and feeding tab, in the degu feeding guide. It's a lot better than just nuggets and hay. SAB is even better still, but I think maybe give the 50/50 a go first, it's less overwhelming than the SAB. Once you've gotten used to 50/50, then perhaps progress onto SAB.
But that's not too important at the moment.
Try grinding the seeds into a powder, she can probably lick it up that way. Or mix it into a paste, if you crush nuggets, crush sunflower seeds and add some water, it'll turn into a paste that she can lick up.
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