|
Post by deguconvert on Jan 21, 2017 21:22:47 GMT
I also think he may still have some tenderness of jaw. And I'll be honest, I have wondered at times if the jaw can be temporarily misaligned as a result of being propped open for so long.
|
|
|
Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Jan 21, 2017 22:42:13 GMT
Entirely possible. My other thought was that I'm still providing ground nuts in carrot baby food - why would he want to expend the effort to get into a nut if I'm providing it already opened, chewed and swallowable? (So I'm not providing carrots for a day or two, will see what he does over the next few days)
|
|
|
Post by bouncy on Jan 22, 2017 12:58:01 GMT
I also think he may still have some tenderness of jaw. And I'll be honest, I have wondered at times if the jaw can be temporarily misaligned as a result of being propped open for so long. Ditto - mine's been misaligned the last month, since seeing the dentist!
|
|
|
Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Jan 22, 2017 22:08:05 GMT
He keeps hiding from me, so it's kinda hard to tell, but we're both pretending we can't see each other and he's really struggling to actually gnaw through a hazelnut shell. As in, normally all one can hear after handing four degus a nut is *scritch scritch scritch* as every single one of them sets to work on getting through the shell. He is rolling the nut around a lot, and carrying it everywhere, but not along much headway on getting in.
If I knew how to weaken the shells so he could just finish them off, it might help. All I have the facility to do is crack them with a nutcracker, and that isn't likely to help in the long run teeth wise.
|
|
|
Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Jan 22, 2017 22:17:51 GMT
Partial success is being had with a walnut lightly cracked but not fully opened with a nutcracker; there seems to be enough incentive in knowing there is nutty goodness inside to keep trying.
|
|
|
Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Jan 22, 2017 22:34:11 GMT
Maybe it's a useless thought, but they've burred his teeth flat- I know because he nipped me earlier and it didn't hurt at all, his teeth aren't sharp. Which won't be helping him at all. He's not one for chewing wood, seems to see no value in the effort.
When people have baby degus, how do they sharpen their baby teeth, and how long does it take them until they are sharp?
|
|
|
Post by savvy on Jan 22, 2017 22:46:16 GMT
This is going to be a bit fiddly, but have you thought about using sandpaper on the nutshell to roughen the surface and also to thin the actual shell. This would make it easier for him to hold and also easier for him to get at the nut.
You could try an emery board as a file.
In terms of the already ground nuts, he's probably thinking why hunt when you can be fed.
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Jan 23, 2017 1:34:29 GMT
It will take a while to hone his teeth to a sharpened edge. I think that when you hear degus just sitting in place and tooth chattering, they are also actually sharpening them. I remember when I first joined and there was a LOT of discussion on what tooth chattering means, and many thought it was a sign of annoyance, which it certainly can be. I however, tend to think of it as a kind of mindless activity that is beneficial to the edge of their teeth. So, if you hear him tooth chattering, he is likely trying to regain the edge that was lost with the burring.
|
|
|
Post by ntg on Jan 23, 2017 10:17:17 GMT
Alongside savvycats suggestion for the nut, you can also use a (preferably not good) screwdriver to put a small hole in the nut and then leave him with the opening the rest of the shell part. I have to do this for one of mine since he's too blooming lazy to open them himself and just waits to ambush the others once they've gotten through their shells.
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Jan 23, 2017 14:22:46 GMT
I think the teeth should be flat if you are looking from the front, I suppose they should be pointed if you are looking at the profile from the side.
I like the idea of putting a small hole in the nut shell, or you could file it thinner in one place with a metal file or a 'rasp' (for wood), which is a bit like a fine cheese grater.
Has he no interest at all in natural, fresh sticks with bark on?
With the right wear, the teeth could be sharp within a day, even a few hours, if he knew what to do and was able. Flossie has an incisor that splits and breaks, so I've watched them grow and how she wears out the unevenness many times, it's frightening how fast they grow, I estimate it about 1mm per day, you can see changes each day.
|
|
|
Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Jan 30, 2017 22:01:53 GMT
Updates! (forgive typos, I've taken my inhaler for the dog hair I inhaled at the vets and I have the jitters still, I've tried to correct them but I can't get aneasthetic right today and I know how to spell it but my fingers won't cooperate)
We went to see Molly at Rutherford House again today. I figured this was the best place, as she did the initial surgery, so she would be best placed to advise on why this was a recurring problem.
I showed her the photo of what his teeth looked like two weeks ago, which was tow weeks since she'd "discharged" us from post-op care, what they looked like post-burring at the local vets, and then she looked at how they look today. She poked his jaw, said she agreed that the abscesses were healing nicely, but that there was some definite movement impairment in the jaw, but wasn't sure if it was because of the front teeth or if they were a symptom.
She rasped his front teeth down (wanted to anasethestise him for it, but given he was struggling with aneasthetic (jeepers, anasethetic is hard to type with vibrating fingers) when he last had his teeth done we settled for rasping today) and then looked inside his mouth with the scope - he didn't like this. From what she saw, she thinks that the back teeth have grown too long from disuse (from all the soft food while he wasn't chewing) and that's what is causing the jaw misalognment.
So, new plan: 1. I'd weaned him down to 0.1mL daily of dog metacam, she wants me to put him back up to 0.1mL BD so that he is not discouraged from eating because of jaw/tooth pain. 2. I am to keep encouraging him to eat dandelion root, get him attacking nuts - the front teeth were less overgrown at this two week mark than they were at the previous two week mark, so she thinks he is doing his best and not screwing himself over. 3. By eating and chewing normally, he should self-grind thise back teeth to their proper length. 4. If I am still concerned in two weeks, I can bring him back and we'll consider anaesthetic then - getting the back teeth ground down is an injected-anaestheitc job, and I said I'd be happy to consider that at 4 weeks since the last anaesthetic, but not at two weeks given how difficult his last anaesthetic (hooray for spelling!) was after only 2 weeks since the previous (I hope that timeline makes sense). 5. If we have to consider injectable anaesthetic at that time, we will and she will grind his molars down so that he can start again from a fresh slate.
Apparently, if he was a rabbit we wouldn't have this option, but because he's a rodent their teeth issues can self-correct if helped, which is what today's rasping and the pain releif will do. There was no criticism on having taken him to my local vets for his previous teeth burring (I wasn't sure if she was going to tell me that I should have took him to her because it was a post-op problem, but she said it was better to have him treated locally than leave him untreated because I couldn't get him to her in a timely manner). And, the cost of it was comparable to my regular vets as well, which was nice (previous treatment at Rutherford House, while very effective and well done, left my credit card weeping in a corner).
So, hooray! We have forward progress, we have an actual plan and I have a critter who is very pissed off at having his teeth attacked with a glorified nail file while hw was distracted.
|
|
|
Post by bouncy on Jan 30, 2017 22:08:26 GMT
Sounds like a good plan, and you have a supportive vet. She's obviously thinking it through long-term.
Dandelion root was a green light then? To me, it's a very clear indication when Scaredy is starting to have problems again. It's good that it's having a positive effect on his gnashers too!
Am I right in thinking the vet didn't take root xrays already? Worst case, if he does need dental treatment again, you can nag for those pics!
|
|
|
Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Jan 30, 2017 22:13:09 GMT
She took some kind of x-rays at his first appointment with her, and said it wasn't issues with the roots. When she looked today, she said he didn't have spurs growing sideways or upwards that she could see. I expect that if we hit stage 5, I will ask for x-rays while she's in there to be sure of what's going on.
He loves dandelion root, but isn't so fussed on nettle root. I need to find a more economical way of getting dandelion root, PaH were a useful stopgap but the tiny bag was not cheap. I don't expect really-cheap, just... financially viable in the long term, would be nice. I've nuked the degu budget into oblivion and can only hope that no one else gets anything that I can't diagnose and treat myself without a vet visit. He's worth it, but my degu savings account said "see ya!" about 4 weeks ago after his first visit to Rutherford House, my friend has been covering for me since then - I've just paid him back, I do not want to say "very sorry, need that money back again" :/ So it is ALL GOING TO BE ABSOLUTELY FINE. DEFINITELY.
|
|
|
Post by ntg on Jan 30, 2017 22:41:14 GMT
If you already order from zooplus then they do a decent value bag of dandelion root from jr Farm that's normally on offer! It's what I usually add to my basket to get me through the free delivery limit!
|
|
|
Post by bouncy on Jan 30, 2017 22:47:46 GMT
Ditto! I put the stuff on my legs, so they all climb onto me when running. If wearing a skirt, they tickle, then fail because they can't climb skin lol
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Jan 31, 2017 14:28:19 GMT
Great to get an update, and I'm glad to hear that you were able to make a plan and that you sound reassured, I always think it's great to consult with a vet you trust, it feels like they take some of the weight off your shoulders.
I'm interested and impressed that she was able to rasp the front teeth without anaesthetic, I don't think we've come across that before for a degu. I'm wondering if rear dental work under general anaesthetic is more common than I thought; I was telling somebody yesterday that I thought it was nearly always done under gas sedation. You would know more about the pros and cons of general vs gas sedation than me, and you didn't seem alarmed, so maybe it's not that big a deal? Is the GA injected into a blood vessel? I think the issue is that it isn't so easily reversible if the animal gets into difficulty?
I think the theory that his jaw joint may have become slightly injured may hold water. Can you see or feel anything not quite right at the joint, did the vet have a good feel around the joint yesterday? I'm wondering if his front teeth are out of alignment of if his jaw could be out of alignment? Probably difficult to tell.
Keep an eye on any changes in what he is able or willing to eat, different sizes, textures, calorific content etc, and keeping weighing him.
Anyway, I also hope fervently for you that some good old painkillers and chewing action can help sort things out. Somebody mentioned above about blocking off main routes with wood as a way to encourage chewing - my girls fall for this one too, and it might be worth a try for encouraging him chewing wood (rather than just hard foods).
Burdock roots are similar to dandelion, although probably not as hard, they may harden up a bit more if you dried them out a bit more, my girls prefer dandelion but they do like burdock, so it's another option. You can buy them and dandelion roots from Justingredients (direct or via amazon)(without the minimum order of zooplus), the JRFarm dandelion roots may be less chopped though and therefore better for chewing.
|
|
|
Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Jan 31, 2017 16:47:12 GMT
When I was looking at teeth issues on the internet for rodents, it looks like it is a thing that can be done for rats. You have to have two hands on the rat's body to hold it still, one hand gently holding the rat's head still and one hand using the rasp. So it didn't surprise me that she tried it on a degu, he's wigglier but I kinda expect them to have the handling experience to do it carefully. The overall appearance was rougher than when they were burred, but they were short and even again Ideally, I think teeth should be done under anaesthetic so you have time to do it properly, but we agreed that we should avoid the anaesthetic if we can. GA can be inhaled or injected. First option is injected local anaesthetic (doesn't knock you out) - good for humans as they tend to understand what's happening, bad for critters as they don't understand and won't hold still if an area goes numb. Next level is inhaled 'gas' general anaesthetic (general anaesthetic meaning you get knocked out) - this seems to be the preferred option for small critters. It tends to be short acting, hence needing a continual supply of anaesthetic to the critter while you work on them, but when you stop using it the effects wear off quickly - good for critters are "brittle" (hard to control) under anaesthetic. Last level is injected anaethetic, tends to last longer but difficult to reverse if there's a problem. Once the anaesthetic is in, we don't actually understand how it works in the body to turn the brain "lightly off" for a while. It also takes humans on average a week to clear an hour's worth of anaesthetic. Added together, I'm inclined to keep him away from anaesthetic if I can for a few more weeks, to give him as good a chance as possible under the next batch if it's needed. I trust the vets and the techs to keep him safe and pull him out if he's struggling, but I'd rather give him and them the best possible health to be able to do that, if it makes sense? The problem with dental work is that you're working in the area that they'd like to be covering with the face mask to get the critter to sleep; injected is less problematic than a critter waking up half way through surgery! That said, it is harder to reverse. My plan with the vet is that I'd like her to try gas anaesthetic, but I'm willing to consider injected if we have to. Mainly, I'd like her to be able to get it right the first time, rather than multiple visits His weight is currently holding reasonably steady - he's dropped a little today, but that's understandable given that his mouth will be sore again from the rasping. If it doesn't pick up again in a day or two I'll start thinking what to do next. Molly was able to have a reasonably good feel around the jaw, mostly while he had a scope in his mouth to stop him nipping her!
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Feb 1, 2017 10:39:29 GMT
Yes, you're balancing the advantage of doing the dental work without the risk of the anaesthetic, verses the risk of damaging the teeth while you rasp them. I agree you made the right choice in the circumstances and it was good that the vet was able to give you the option.
Thanks for explaining more about anaesthetics, very useful. You know I hadn't properly twigged that the mask is going to be in the way for doing dental work. I know they use a little tent to give the initial gas to small furries at my vets, but as you say, they will need to provide further gas somehow if they are out for a while.
|
|
|
Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Feb 12, 2017 15:31:53 GMT
Ugh. So, my local vets doesn't have an exotics vet any more. They used to, which is why I went ahead with getting degus - but now I have no local degu veterinary care.
Zoe's teeth are still wonky, but I can't get up to Rutherford House this week. I rely on a friend to drive me - Molly only works until 6, I finish work at 17:15, so he kindly finishes work early to collect Zoe and bring him to me at work so we can get to Molly before she finishes as I physically can't make the round trip in time via taxi.
It's screamingly frustrating. I'm doing my best to keep his weight up and his teeth short, but it's annoying that it's not working. I'll get him there somehow, I'm just venting a little.
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Feb 12, 2017 17:33:38 GMT
Are Zoe's teeth improving at all? Is the face all healed up now?
I'm sorry it's so awkward to get to the vets, on top of the worry, must be very frustrating.
|
|