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Post by chinsight on Mar 9, 2015 19:27:04 GMT
Just a note to let chinchilla owners know if your chinchilla is developing cataracts there are human / animal cataract eye drops that may help. Vision Clarity Eye Drops. Here's the direct link.
www.advancedalternativescenter.com/Vision_Clarity_Eye_Drops_p/vc-drops.htm
I have a 10 yr old male chinchilla with cataracts in both eyes, one cataract is more advanced than the other, so for the past 2 days I have been applying a drop in each eye twice a day. There is no burning because the PH is so low and he doesn't seem to mind them at all. Hopefully the cataract will start to dissolve soon. I just wanted to put this out there since I was told by my vet that there isn't much that can be done for cataracts and the chins can go totally blind. I was happy to see this alternative to try.
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Post by natnat899 on Mar 10, 2015 9:26:46 GMT
Thanks for the heads up - Please let us know how your chinchilla gets on with them good luck, I hope it works
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Post by chinsight on Mar 10, 2015 23:43:25 GMT
Well since his cataracts progressed he became less and less interactive and slept much more. I was starting to think he was feeling isolated even though he has a 6 yr old female chinchilla mate. This is why I started the drops twice a day. I started his drops on March 7th 2015 and today is March 10th 2015. For the past two days he was up bright and early to greet me hello and he hasn't done that in over a year. I looked at his eyes this afternoon and I couldn't remember which eye had the larger cataract. I already see a smaller cataract in both eyes. This to me is incredible in such short of time. I'm stunned. He takes his drops very well and does not fight me. I'm going to keep updating his progress.
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Post by natnat899 on Mar 11, 2015 2:10:03 GMT
That sounds really promising, I hope he continues to progress. Where did you come accross the idea of these eye drops?
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Post by chinsight on Mar 11, 2015 20:38:11 GMT
My dad has cataracts and my brother bought him these drops before he was going to have surgery as an alternative to try. He's not the type to take things everyday so he only used the drops a few times before having the cataract surgery. My brother bought 3 pkg's of these drops and they've just been sitting in their fridge. I was looking up chinchilla cataracts on the internet to see if the chinchilla could use the drops and I ran across the link that said the ones my dad had were for humans and animals. I grabbed the chin out of his cage and we were off to the races. I'm hoping another chin owner will try the drops and update on here. If it works again then this would be something wonderful for chinchillas and their owners.
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Post by littlepaws1999 on Mar 11, 2015 20:44:40 GMT
I wonder if they could be used on degus also then, considering chinchillas can use them.
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Post by chinsight on Mar 12, 2015 18:45:51 GMT
I would think since there are no side effects that I have encountered it could be used on any rodents.
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Post by ntg on Mar 14, 2015 19:40:57 GMT
I'm unsure of how comfortable I feel with doing this. The eyes are an extremely delicate area and just testing out medications of any sort on animals with no input from your vet is not encouraged.
I'm glad that they have worked out for you but please be very careful, if the solution is strong enough to dissolve cataracts them it's certainly strong enough to damage the eyes. I really would recommend talking to your vet again.
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Post by chinsight on Mar 15, 2015 19:32:23 GMT
Well I spoke with his vet and she said nothing can be done about cataracts in Chinchillas. I'll bring him and the acetyl-carnosine eye drops in the next time I bring the female in to have her teeth shaved. By that time he will be 2 1/2 months into his eye drops. So yes, I'm willing to "experiment" on him in the meantime. Life is full of uncomfortable situations. I was more uncomfortable watching him go blind with these cataracts over the past year, and seeing him become more despondent and isolated; than I am with putting cataract drops in his eyes twice a day and watching him become more interactive again. The drops say they are "for use on animals and humans." Could something unforeseen happen? Sure it could... His eyes could dissolve, they could fall out, and the medicine could poison him. However, the medicine could also; reverse the cataracts, improve his sight, stop and/or reverse the damage currently being caused by the cataracts. I'm assuming when developing this medicine, tests were done on rats and mice before this got anywhere near human eye testing and I'm assuming those tests went well considering it is now being marketed for humans and animals. It’s at the sole discretion of the pet owner whether or not to try these eye drops on their pet. Their other option is do nothing and watch their chinchilla go blind. I will update the board on his progress and so far he is doing great and I see no side effects at all. I tried to post pictures but they are too large and it won't let me post them.
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Post by ntg on Mar 15, 2015 20:53:25 GMT
I'm sorry, I have degus with cataracts and they're perfectly fine as they are. We also have a lot of owners with degus that develop cataracts and they adapt and cope brilliantly. I would never consider putting in drops or any medication that have been given to humans unless it has been given the okay by a trained professional beforehand. I even question the trained professional from time to time but I know better than to just do things off my own back.
Yes they were probably tested by animals beforehand, but not necessarily chinchillas. Different species can have different sensitivities and reactions to things. That's why we do animal trials followed by trials on humans, those drugs that react alright with the animals tested on don't always react well with humans. How do you know that that dose isn't too much for the smaller eyes? How long is it safe to use for? Because you don't know these things it's more likely to go wrong.
Also, if you stopped the drops my bet is that the cataracts will return. Whether it's diet, genetics, or a mix of both that's causing this, if you don't make other changes then they're unlikely to just magically reverse for good. Something had to go wrong in the first place for them to form. What will you do in that situation?
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 16, 2015 13:30:09 GMT
We appreciate you coming to the forum to share your positive experience and your endeavours to improve the life of your chinchillas, but I'm sure you can understand that the staff of the forum have a duty to advise caution in the use of any medicines, particularly when not prescribed by a vet.
We don't have many chinchilla owners on the forum these days, but we find that cataracts are very common in degus, and they are often of the osmotic type which may be associated with slightly elevated glucose levels. We sometimes find that these cataracts respond to a degree if the degu is fed a very low carb diet to keep glucose levels to a steady minimum. You also mention your chinchilla has dental disease, you may be interested to know that a high forage diet (fresh if possible) and attention to the calcium content of the diet can sometimes help this.
If you would like to post photos you need to host them on a photo sharing site like Photobucket and then use the image tags to link them to the forum. (further instructions in photo area).
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Post by chinsight on Mar 16, 2015 20:30:42 GMT
From what I can tell "Mouse" is having a very positive experience with the eye drops and that’s why I share it here. Some of these cataracts continue to degrade the eye until the eye has to be removed. I am unwilling to let this happen to any animal without trying some intervention, and this one seems to be working quite well. Yes, I assume the cataracts will reform if the eye drops are stopped. In a best case scenario the cataracts dissolve, and I would change his drops to once a day, then maybe once every 2-3 days. Chinchillas live an average of 15-17 yrs and he’s almost 11 so I will continue the eye drops, if results continue to prove positive, until he croaks. There will never be widespread chinchilla / degu cataract studies conducted unless ntg moderator wants to host and sponsor one. So as far as waiting for the veterinarian medicine to come up with a treatment, it’s not happening. What is happening is medical research has been done on animals with acetyl-carnosine and I'm willing to take it a step further with chinchillas. If you are not comfortable using it on your animals then don't, however, the only way to find out the effects on chinchillas is to try it and see what happens. Just because there are unknowns, and people are afraid of what "might happen," and look for only the negatives, is no reason not to try and find out. Also, from what I can tell chinchillas are badly bred which is why we have so many problems with them today. Eyes, teeth, cancer etc... That's most likely a result of generational breeding of inferior traits. A strict diet may help but even with that you have GMO's in Chinchilla feed which contribute to health abnormalities. Lifespans of Degu's is only 6-8 yrs lifespans of chins is 15-17 yrs. That's an enormous amount of time to care for an animal and more likely it will develop health problems. With that being said our female (Bebzee) with the tooth problems was a rescue. We bought her the day she came into the pet shop for $165. She was about a year old and weighed maybe 10-11 ounces. She was skin and chinchilla cartilage. It took us over 2 yrs to put weight on her and she had bacterial infections and then her teeth problems. It was a nightmare getting her up and running but now she is doing well. She was so scared and abused when we got her and with lots of love she has blossomed into a 14 oz chinchilla with the biggest demanding little mouse ego. She takes no guff from anyone now. We take her for nighttime "walkies" with us, and car rides to PetSmart. She loves looking at the cats, birds, and fish. She goes every year to look at Christmas lights in the neighborhood. I'm going out on a limb to say chins can see in color because she is in complete awe of LED Christmas lights. If I'm on the computer she demands to see what i am looking at and will watch youtube videos with animals, cake decorating, and make-up tutorials. She will watch them for 20 - 30 minutes. Video games on my phone…She wants to see it. And she enjoys all this because she can see. Mouse use to enjoy all this too until he developed cataracts and then he went into a shell. Chinchillas are amazingly intelligent rodents and when they can’t interact they kind of shrivel up. He now sees me coming with the eye drops and he runs. I take this as a good sign that he can "see me coming" so he is getting his chin tactics back and he argues with me but an almond usually soothe his temper. In the end we all love our animals and we want to protect them and keep them from harm while trying to ensure they live a healthy happy life. We all do this in the best way we personally know how and sometimes it works well and sometimes not, but it’s all part of life.
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Post by ntg on Mar 16, 2015 21:26:10 GMT
With all due respect, you speak as though you think chinchillas are somehow more intelligent and inquisitive than degus. I can assure you that this is not the case. My lot are nosy with everything you do, and when I say they have cataracts and are perfectly fine with it, I mean it. They interact with each other, myself, and their surroundings in their own way. They slowed down a tiny amount to navigate but use hearing, smell and touch to their advantage. The lifespan has absolutely nothing to do with it either, they're all relative. If a degu develops cataracts at 4, it's still living half its life with them.
Where did I say I wanted a study done either? I merely made an observation from my knowledge of drug development and told you that it isn't as straight forward as you think, and as a result of that you should always consult your vet before self treating an ailment. By which, I do not mean see them, disagree with them and go and do your own thing, I mean have a conversation with them about the treatment you are proposing and see if they can offer any advice on the subject before beginning. They are more likely to have the ability to access relevant studies and publications than you do.
The correct diet can actually do wonders for your animals, we've seen cataracts reversed, and dental treatments being less frequent in severe cases in degus. Yet benefits from improved diet can be seen in many animal species, so you would be wrong to dismiss the idea.
At the end of the day, I read the article you linked to and it didn't sit well with me. It was poorly written from a scientific standpoint, no sources to these studies it kept mentioning, and when talking about animals only mentioned use on dogs.
Saying low pH doesn't instil that much confidence either. How low is low? Low pH=acidic, which isn't necessarily a good thing. How does it compare to the pH on the surface of the eye? These things aren't mentioned, yet it's very basic information that should be provided on a site like that.
We would be remiss as staff on this forum to not question any new information. The amount of studies we read through, critically appraise, and discuss when things are brought to light is the only way we can be as sure as possible that we are giving out good, solid advice. Getting on your high-horse because I gave an opinion that doesn't match yours is not going to change my mind; I'm not somebody who can be cowed or bullied. A reasonable, polite, and well thought out exchange is much more beneficial in changing my opinion (and finding a better source of information doesn't hurt either).
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Post by chinsight on Mar 16, 2015 22:15:15 GMT
Sigh.... If you look at my first post I said "Chinchilla owners." This is the Chinchilla board. I have a chinchilla. I am giving information about my Chinchilla. If you don't want to use the drops for your degus then don't. If degu owners don't want to use the eye drops then they wont. Chinchilla owners may want to try the drops and they should. The more who try this technique the more information we will gather on what works and what does not work. If you are not going to run a cataract study yourself, then you need to allow information to come in. You've made your point that you would not use this on your degu and you don't not think anyone should be using this without further study. I understand your position and everyone else who reads this will also understand your position. Your solution is to let them go blind and you are up in arms and condemning a new treatment that so far is providing a positive result. I could see if there were negative results appearing but there are not. I said, I am taking them to their exotic animal specialist in a couple months and I will bring the eye drops and talk to the vet. I will tell you what the vet says.
I also said, "Chinchilla's are are amazingly intelligent rodents, and when they can’t interact they kind of shrivel up." Where did I say that Chinchillas are more intelligent and inquisitive than Degus? Why is everything I say being interpreted by you as a chinchilla - vs - degu? I'm sure degus are lovely, sweet, intelligent, little creatures. Why would you interpret what I say as anything bad about them? I'm not understanding your hostility. This isn't meant to be taken personally. This is the Chinchilla health board. I have something here that may help chins with cataracts. I am trying to share my experiences.
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Post by chinsight on Mar 16, 2015 22:54:48 GMT
Maybe I wrote that on another chinchilla board, but yes, Bebzee goes in every 3 - 5 months to have her tooth spurs shaved down. Her eyes are fine and her teeth grow oddly. Mouses teeth are fine but his eyes are bad. We periodically feed them dried oat hay which may help with their teeth because of the different chewing directions from their usual pellets. But I think Bebzee's teeth are hereditary more than dietary. Which is why we don't mate her and mouse the male is fixed. So the next time we bring her in which will be a couple months I will bring Mouse and the eye drops and see what the vet says. Jennifer is an exotic animal specialist so she knows Chins. Anyone in Dallas area with a chin she's wonderful and does a great job on tooth spurs for only $65.
Parker Animal & Bird Clinic - Jennifer E Thedford DVM 2129 W Parker Rd, Ste A, Plano,TX 75023 (972) 985-0036
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Post by ntg on Mar 16, 2015 23:06:29 GMT
I've read up on chins and cataracts, all the pages I've seen have said exactly the same as we see in degus, they learn to cope just as well. Yes it's possible you have a strange case, but it's unusual, not the norm.
The reason why I come back to degus is because that is what this forum focuses on, 99% of us are degu owners and as they are both fairly closely related then similarities can be drawn. With this being the case it's likely that degu owners from this forum will see this and guess that if it's okay for chins then it's probably okay for degus. So yes, I need to bring it back to degus.
I'm not being hostile either, you came in, posted the link and your story, I gave my doubts and then you got a little uppity over it all and basically said my opinion doesn't matter. So I expanded my points and tried to get you to open your mind a little to the implications. It's all very valid in a discussion really but your responses don't exactly make you seem open to one.
I have to be sceptical, I can't just read something without being critical when it relates to animal health, it's irresponsible both as an owner and a staff member on this forum. I constantly question what is being said, I double check doses when I'm given new medications. I look at things from a strong science background where critical appraisal is not only encouraged but necessary. If I feel the information I've been given doesn't stand up to that then I'll say so. I'm not saying I'm always right, I know I'm not, I'm merely saying that the information provided isn't enough for me to let this go without a warning to try and make you and others understand the implications of taking treatment into your own hands, however well-meaning you are.
However, what I've really been trying to explain to you is that you should have discussed using these drops with your vet before starting treatment, not after. And more importantly, that anyone even considering this should consult their vet first.
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 17, 2015 11:21:38 GMT
Thank you for the vet recommendation.
I just want to clarify that cataracts do not cause any pain or discomfort, only loss of vision, and that the only thing currently known to help is an appropriate diet low in carbs and high in digestible fibre.
I think everyone has had their say now so I will close this thread.
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Post by chinsight on Mar 17, 2015 22:07:23 GMT
Speaking to a moderator on another board, she pointed out that other chinchilla owners have been using Ocluvet eye drops with good results. The Ocluvet and the Vision Clarity eye drops BOTH have the same ingredient N-acetyl-L-carnosine. So apparently I am not the only chinchilla owner using these drops with good results. www.allivet.com/p-1310-ocluvet-eye-drops-15-ml.aspxSterile Water USP, Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate (as a buffering agent), L-Carnosine, N-Acetyl-L-Carnosine, Cysteine Ascorbate, Glutathione, Riboflavin Monophosphate, L-Taurine, Polysorbate 80 0.2%, Propylene Glycol 0.2%.
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Post by chinsight on Apr 3, 2015 20:29:55 GMT
UPDATE!!! The male chinchilla is doing wonderful. His eyes are 80% better with Vision Clarity drops twice a day. NO SIDE EFFECTS AT ALL. Anyone that has Chins with cataracts would definitely benefit from this.
I'm not sure why the moderator(s) of this board have such a problem with locking and deleting my posts about these eye drops that clearly work very WELL.
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Post by natnat899 on Apr 3, 2015 23:40:02 GMT
I am glad that you are still making progress with the eye drops. Is he back to his usual self? (Mischievous little things that they are, I currently have a runaway in my bedroom !)
The moderators are just concerned that the eye drops have not been thoroughly tested to ensure that they are safe, unfortunately there is still a lot that medicine needs to learn about chinchillas. They were just making it clear that there may be side effects on other chinchillas, or it could cause perminant damage later on.
However I agree that their responses came across as aggressive, but do have a duty to make people aware of the consequences and to ensure that the information is correct.
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