A few thoughts (Fighting Degus)

[NightwishRaven999]

Hello friends ! Hope all of you are well.
Some thoughts have crossed my mind and I thought I would write them down and share them with you.
These are NOT based on fact and should not be considered as such.
The thoughts I will share with you should be taken lightly.

Watching my degus bicker over the food bowl earlier and watching the same degu always getting her way and eating before the others is what brought on this topic in the first place.

There are many internet guides on fighting degus and how to cope with degus that do not like each other. This is a problem that many owners are faced with. Most of you who own large groups would no doubt like to keep them all together...but for many of you, this has proven impossible due to heavy infighting.

I some cases, one degu will pick on the other degu/other degus...while some cases involve two dominant degus constantly fighting for the "top" position.

From the few years spent on here, I could not help but notice how many owners (highly experienced ones as well) have problems with in fighting in the groups. This leads to seperations and more enclosures/cages.

I many cases this cannot be avoided. As we well know, some degus are VERY picky about who they like and who they dont.
Much like humans, in a group of degus you can have two degus that really do not like each other. This causes problems for the whole group and tension rises quickly.

In the wild...this is not such an issue. The degus can avoid each other or seperate to form new clans. In the cage, it is completely different, since the animals are constantly forced to see, smell and interact with each other.

In most cases, there is no miracle solution to these problems.
Seperation and re-introduction is the only option.

However, we have seen some cases where the cause of the infighting was related to a group of degus not being able to establish a leader.

BEWARE ! This is where I will take off with my thoughts...

After reading through many such cases...I couldnt help but notice that the majority of those who are dealing with these issues tend to try and keep the peace by seperating the food in multiple dishes/bowls.

Ex: Two degus have been fighting; so seperate the food and give each one his bowl so they can eat at the same time without having to interact.

I dont want to cause debate, but I am honestly wondering how this can be of help ?

The way I see it, seperating the food is only a way to delay the innevitable.

If the cause of the infighting is due to degus fighting for dominance, what good can yield from prolonging the issue ?

In such cases, peace can only be restored through one degu gaining the upper hand.

In a group of degus where the positions/hierarchy is strongly established, the dominant degu "boss" will get to eat first...then the others will follow (each their turn) according to their status in the group. This can seem rough or cruel, but it is a way of life for most pack animals.
Seperating food bowls for each degu would seem conter-productive...no ?

I would think that bickering for food is a good way for the degus to test their physical strength in a non lethal manner.
The one who gets to eat first and who successfully fends off the other degus until he/she has finished eating, strengthens his/her leadership over the others.

By seperating the food, each degu is allowed to eat unchallenged.

OF COURSE, most cases of fighting are more complex and in some cases, two degus will simply not back down and fight until blood is drawn...that is another matter.

But when it comes to mild fighting/bickering for group postion, it would seem to me that things would be settled far quicker if a single large food bowl/dish was used for all the degus.

Some may not like to see the degus bickering for food, but the bickering is part of normal group life and seems necessary in a group where there is a solid hierarchy. The bickering is how a degu "boss" can keep his position and show his conspecifics that he is dominant. To me, this would seem a good way for group peace to remain stable.


When I look at my own degus, who have been living in a group of six for several years...I am pleased to see that in all this time the group hierarchy remains stable and peace is maintained.
The degus feed in one large dish (of course enough food for everyone), but I feel as though making them wait each their turn to eat enforces the "Alpha" degu's position.


This is all wild speculation based on my own reasoning.
Do not give too much thought into this.

Degus are indeed a puzzle...but sometimes it is fun to try and solve it...even when the pieces do not all match


What are your thoughts on this ?

[deguconvert]

I follow your line of thinking here, Jordan, and I am intrigued by it enough that I will be mulling it over. I think you have a strong basis on which to build your thoughts, as well a much experience and opportunity to observe their relationships and interactions. I think it is very possible that feeding order is a key part of keeping the group dynamic stable, and perhaps it is that by keeping this pecking order, it works to prevent the more violent outbreaks? Something to seriously consider.

On the comic side of things, when I read your line "it is a way of life for most pack animals." I have to confess a vision of degus all lined up nose to bum with saddle packs strapped on their backs, flooded my mind. I was seeing and hearing the grumpy back and forth shared between horses that ride the trails in long lines, nose to rump, only in degu form, and I was rather tickled by the comparison. LOL! I have to say though . . . you would need a LOT of degus to carry the same amount of baggage!!

[NightwishRaven999]

Dec 23, 2011 6:09:46 GMT deguconvert said:

I think it is very possible that feeding order is a key part of keeping the group dynamic stable, and perhaps it is that by keeping this pecking order, it works to prevent the more violent outbreaks? Something to seriously consider.

You have summed up my thinking quite well.
It would seem as though keeping the feeding order in a group to be a good way of preventing the sudden violent outbreaks.

I would like to hear what other thoughts may be floating about on this subject.

[malteser60]

Ironically enough I have been thinking about this recently. This has all started for me with the introduction of Poppy and Willow. By having 4 degus, instead of 2 there is a definite change in the way things are done. There is more of a structure, whereas before both Nutmeg and Cinammon swapped who was boss, etc. Now, my lot squabble, a lot! Over everything! (I have a very funny video of Nutmeg chasing everybody away cause she wanted the water bottle). I feed them in two separate bowls, but to be honest with you I don't separate them, so they all eat first from one bowl, then the next later on in the day. And yes, they do squabble and bicker. And the dominant one will eat first, she will take a couple then will let the others eat.

Now, when they are squabbling over food I have stood there thinking, oh I should separate them as that is the done thing. But I have never done that, I just let them bicker, and fight it out. Something has always stopped me from separating them. And that is that thinking about their behaviour, it's as you say Jordan. In the wild they establish a hierarchy, or you go join another colony, form your own, etc. In a cage our degus don't have that choice. Which is why it is so important that our degus do establish that hierarchy. Of course, it can go to far so that one degu is always getting picked on and wounded, and that degu does not have anywhere to go. That is just plain miserable for him or her. But otherwise my gut feeling is to just let them get on with it. Let them squabble, let them bicker about things. Let them sort out their own issues.

[scoobos]

+1 on this.

Everyone I dealt with (when my goos were almost fighting to the death) was pretty much convinced that interfering is the worst thing you can do, even if blood is involved - (unless its a serious multi second ball of death).

A good hint a vet gave me which I am still using with my 3 neutered boys (who still fight) is to give 3 very clear "nest" areas (e.g areas enclosed on at least 4 sides, like a nesting box) - so that if one of them is "evicted" he has his own scent marked space to go to.

This works wonders - I know for a fact that 2 of my goos are never going to accept the other as "more dominant" and that occasionally one will "evict" the other temporarily from the normal sleeping area.

An interesting behaviour is that an "agressive" goo thats doing the fighting will become the defender if the other retires to his own nest area. Its like the scent marking says "this is my space now you're the invader" (I hope that makes sense)

In my case seperating fighting goos, or taking away those opportunities to fight, definately made the situation worse. When seperated my goos went on hunger strike.

[NightwishRaven999]

@ scoobos
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences with us.

[malteser60]

<sigh> Things have taken a turn for the worse with my girls and fighting. I'm sure it has all to do with hormones, breading season (although I know this is up for debate as to when indoor pet degus can get pregnant, but they are certainly more hormonal at the moment), being in heat, and hierarchy establishment. The ironic thing is that the fighting is from the most unexpected degus.

So, to remind all, I have 4 degus - Cinammon and Nutmeg (older girls), Poppy and Willow (younger girls). I had a successful initial introduction between the older girls and the younger girls. However Willow has shown herself to have top goo quality and she is now the top degu, usurping Nutmeg from her position (despite Nutmeg being twice as big as Willow). This was done after lots of fighting, boxing, etc. But none came to any blood drawn except once. Now they are very settled in their position, and Willow will mount and groom Nutmeg with no arguments (whereas previously they were never too keen on being mounted as they established who was dominant).

Now, to Cinammonand Poppy. Poppy has always been the submissive degu. She would always instantly flip onto her back whenever one of the other degus went to mount her. She's always been the gentle degu, if a bit hyper at times. Whenever Nutmeg and Willow fought she would always go to give them both some love. Same when Nutmeg used to chase Cinammon around when Cinammon was in heat. However Cinammon and Poppy are fighting really badly. I've already had to bathe lots of wounds in saline water on both of them, and tufts of fur have been pulled out. From what I can gather Cinammon keeps on going to mount Poppy but she won't have it. However instead of fighting it out like Nutmeg and Willow did (i.e. no blood drawn, etc) Poppy is becoming very agressive and turns on Cinammon straight away. When she is that mood, though, she will also fight Nutmeg and Willow. I had to separate them in the end and put Cinammon in my spare Thickets cage. Then things settle down nicely and Poppy will let herself be groomed by the other two. I tried putting them together again the following night and again they fought badly, this time I put Poppy in the Thickets cage. And same again things settled down with Cinammon grooming and being groomed by the other two.

Oh dear, I have written lots more than I meant to. I'm going to start another thread about this with videos of the fighting, etc. However I'm not entirely sure how to proceed forward with this. I keep trying to put them together. Even last night I cleaned the cage to see if 'resetting' the cage smell helps, but it made no difference. And when they fight it goes on for quite a while, and they literally end up bouncing off the walls of the cage. They smacked into the glass quite a bit.

[fred]

I am afraid this is not going to help with your current fighting problems Alexia, but you may find it interesting to know. A member of the German deguforum and I have analysed all threads about fighting on our respective forums. There is still a bit more to do but one thing is clear: There is no such thing as a breeding season. There is a male “mating season” with the number of fights peaking in December, with high values also in November and January. This corresponds very well with free testosterone levels and agonistic behaviour observed in the wild. In females there is at most a very minor yearly fluctuation but I don't think that statistical analysis will find it significant.

[malteser60]

Yeah, I thought that was the case fred, that's why I was a bit hesitant to mention breeding season. Although I was really really hoping this was the case. I really don't know what has set them off, up until a few days before they were all snuggling up with each other. Right now I'm swapping the two girls between the thickets cage so that they don't get too lonely, seeing as they both still get on well with the two other girls. And I'm going to carry on with trying to get them back together. Might leave it for a while for now just to let things calm down. I've heard of others having success with reintroductions when a period of time has passed by. I'm all for letting them fight it out but it was getting too much, and frankly I did not fancy taking any of them to the vet!

[billyalex]

I found this really interesting to read. I started off with 2 girls then realised that they were not happy as a 2 and got 2 more. After buying a much bigger cage, we got 4 more and introduced them all to the new cage as this was neutral ground. This worked really well and although there is often friendly banter in the form of boxing and a few squeeks they get on really well together curling up as one big group when they go to sleep. The biggest thing that I find that makes them fight are nuts: some eat their nuts and others leave them and hide them saving them until later... Then when later comes the ones that dont have nuts fight for them.

I give them sticks to chew on a regular basis and its quiet entertaining to watch the really cheeky degus hide their stick and then try and steal the stick of a not so confident degu who is chewing their stick. That often causes a squeek but nothing too big as they will just go and find another stick to chew.

The worst thing that causes the most fighting is if i let the food dish get empty. I try to manage the amount of food they eat and always feed them at a set time... But some days they eat more than others. If the food dish is empty and i refill it while they are watching, Pepper will not let the others near it. She sits in it and charges at the ones that try to get close. Sometimes while she is charging at one, another can slip in and grab a few nuggets and back off with their prize without Pepper noticing. BUt if I fill the food dish up when there is food left or when they are asleep, they dont argue at all over it.

I guess its that if it is something that they feel they have run out of, it becomes more valable and worth fighting for? But if they dont notice that I have filled it or if it was not empty, they are happy to carry on as normal, after all the food is there most of the time!

Anyone else noticed the same with theirs? I have 8 girls in one cage and 3 boys in another (temp 2 boys in one and 1 in another) but they boys are not as bothered. They eat when they want to and if the food dish is empty and I refill it, i will always offer it to each of the boys before ptting it down. Sometimes they take some, sometimes they dont

xxx