|
Post by scoobos on Nov 28, 2011 14:58:31 GMT
hi all,
We've had our 3 male goos since march this year as pups; and im a first time owner , ill give background first.
Miguel (275g, dominant boss, main blood drawer, minor injuries) Jose (225g, hardly ever submits, missing claw , 8 ferocious bites on back, facial injuries) Pablo (240g, most submissive, facial injury bleeding otherwise ok)
Massive custom built wooden cage, plenty of toys and space, 2 nest areas
Its mating season , in the past 5 days my guys have gone bananas stressing themselves and me out greatly.
In august i had a bit of trouble with jose and miguel alling out and pablo got his ear torn too, but it settled down without the need to split despite a bit of blood and minor fur fly. I put this down to either disinfecting the cage and inadvtently upsetting dominance or stopping feeding vit c supplements in water. I replaced some old bedding, moved the cage and also gave back the vit c supplement and it calmed down.
However november now and miguel started really attacking jose, biting him severely and numerously down his back and just locking in a ball. My guess at behaviour is that jose wouldnt allow mount domination, miguel tried too hard and hurt him. Now jose instinctively runs as soon as he sees miguel and i think mig then just chases on instinct.
Long story short. I seperated them for a few days (through wire) but it persists. Also the 2 left sharing the main cage were now also ripping each other up but it settled once they both drew blood (they are happily playing as i write this).
Im worried now as if pablo and jose decide to fall out im going to have 3 goos all in solitary and this seems a very bad course of action for this family.
Its all sexual im pretty sure of this as they are all "super sniffing" ive seen them all have their tackle out for a "clean" and theres a few wet tails about. My problem is. Want to reduce stress but am totally unsure what more i can do. Less intervention, or more ?
Im cleaning all wounds with cotton wool and saline, they are looming like they are healing,but oh so much blood.
Thanks for taking the time to read all this!
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Nov 28, 2011 16:40:25 GMT
My guess is that your boys are now around 10-12 months in age? It certainly is related to testosterone, and being in their very intensive adolescent stage, it is very heightened. It's a hard one to deal with and it seems that sometimes the only thing that will help is time and separation. I think that you will definitely need to keep them apart for a while. Degus are masters of the grudge, and it can take a while to forget whatever insult they are angry about. If you can accept it in yourself to keep them apart (with the hope that Pablo and Jose will continue happy), I think you should plan on at least two weeks of this before looking at an attempt at reintroduction. You may need to wait even longer than that, and really, sometimes a long time apart is one of the only ways to help them get back together when the conflict has been so bloody.
|
|
|
Post by scoobos on Nov 28, 2011 17:39:44 GMT
Thank you for the quick reply, yes 10 months is mY guess, i think they were a bit too young when i got them (they were crying for their mother according to another degu site soundboard) I'll follow this plan and see how they get on in 2 weeks. Today has been better - no blood other than in miguel's (brand new) cage from pablo biting him through the bars. Also they are much less interested in each other. My only concern is that ive locked up the boss, and it feels tight as he's clearly the cleverest one - someones going to try steal his spot while hes in jail, and he gets mad when they dont show him respect, he gets mad at me sometimes if they are winding him up Im such a softie but ive been close to tears with worry and frustration, its an awful sight to see them locked onto each others throats thank god for the forum! The good news, i think is that they sre pretty good with grudges and me (not sure about each other) each ones been accidentally hurt by me and forgiven me quite quickly, with an oat bribe Thanks again and ill update in 2 weeks. Apologies for typos , using a mobile to post!
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Nov 28, 2011 23:22:06 GMT
Too bad degus can't send care packages to each other!!! Just think how much worry and grief we could bring to a quick end in the world of degus IF we could send fighting degus separate packets of oats in each others names and they would forgive each other as quickly as they do us??? Ahhh . . . what a blissful dream . . . . The difficulty that you have right now is IF the boss is also your instigator, you really do need to keep them apart. It's kind of a different thing when it is one of the undergoos that is looking to rise up the ladder of power, instigating the fights by challenging the top goo. But if the top goo is also instigating the fights, I'm kind of afraid that it is a more serious matter. It could be that he will be completely unwilling to accept any other males around him. I know of one case where the top goo wouldn't accept any degus except for one certain female, and then after a few months he nearly killed her one day . . . right out of the blue. He had to be isolated, completely out of sight or smell of any other degus before he became a calm and friendly degu. (So long as the humans handling him didn't smell of the other household degus . . . then he would attack.) Having him apart is really your only choice right now to keep your other two healthy. Keep a close eye on him, and see if he continues to calm over the next two weeks. Then, please let us know how it goes when you try an introduction, OK? Sometimes the use of complete and total isolation, and limited interactions from the humans, can result in a true reversal of attitudes. It's like it makes the degu realize his true need for the companionship of other degus and they are ready to mend their ways. It is not fail proof, but it can greatly help the introductions have better success.
|
|
|
Post by scoobos on Nov 29, 2011 17:24:47 GMT
I am reading and following your advice, but have not completely isolated miguel other tha. For the first night , i cant bring myself to do it because he instantly gets really depressed and just sits in 1 position for hours on end. If it proves to be absolutely necessary i will tho. At the mo its miguel in a cage that is inside the larger one, its calming down already and from the behavour im seeing today (i know, its early doors) miguel is not starting anything and is making friendly goo noises to the others. Both pablo and jose seem to enjoy winding him up by trying to put their heads right up his bum and then chattering teeth at him. I know a little bum sniffle is normal but this is a real persistent push, if that makes sense. I'll add that ive bern handlng them as they seem to crave my attention at the mo, and they are all super sniffing my hands and then grooming me with their teeth ever so methodically. I know im new to this, but its really strange behaviour, i might whack a video up on skydrive or something. Thanks again for your help its nice not to feel lost and alone with how t deal with them. In other news: (mig left a solid white semi hard goo in my hand today then barked all afternoon ) euurgh
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Nov 30, 2011 3:51:31 GMT
Aaaaa . . . ewwww . . . that's . . . a new one! So glad you didn't have guests at the time. LOL!
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Nov 30, 2011 3:55:50 GMT
OOPS!! Also meant to say, I didn't intend that you should put Miguel into complete and total isolation at this point. Keep doing what you are doing, and observing their interactions. Then try the introduction in neutral territory, and see how that goes. Post about it on here, and take the opportunity to ask for further advice, or ask questions, or whatever. There is lots of time to consider the full isolation treatment, it's really up to you when you may or may not choose to give it a try.
|
|
nubbin
Burrowing Degu
Posts: 237
|
Post by nubbin on Nov 30, 2011 12:26:21 GMT
im going through exactly the same thing at the moment, Eric and Bernard are worst enemies, Eric and Manny were being civil but kept breaking into bad fights and Manny and Bernard get on so I've had to buy a large cage which could be split into 2 and put Eric on his own in the top and the other 2 in the bottom.
They are starting to ignore each other so i will try to start the slow introduction procedure soon.
if i was aware they could be this bad before i got them maybe i would have got girls instead!
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Nov 30, 2011 15:11:28 GMT
I've had the same thought myself, but . . . over the years of being part of this forum, I've run into several accounts of females being just as testy and aggressive as the males. It "seems" to be related to the amount of testosterone their bodies produce, some producing more than others. In the females with higher testosterone levels there tends to be greater aggressiveness and more pressing dominance. So, in general the girls can be less difficult with their relationships, but it really is no more a guarantee with them than it is with the boys.
|
|
|
Post by scoobos on Dec 1, 2011 13:00:26 GMT
Hi nubbin, just wanted to say I knew about your situation as i was following your threads and I'm right there with you, PM me if u want to share ideas etc.
Ive been through a mini version early in the year and the only thing i know is I have to be patient, I started getting anxious and worrying about how i could manage if they never get on, but it worked out after seperating them 1 night only.
If its any consolation, jose's injuries this time, were really severe he was just a little blood sponge , and hes recovered really quickly in both personality and body. We'll get through this , the general info i have had is that its the first breeding season and also they are growing up.
I agree though that this was a surprise to me, i actually bought boys as i thought it more likely they'd cute fight...
Update: day 3 and already progress (and a few more bitten fingers and noses)
Pablo and jose are now happy and relaxed with each other with high tolerance. Miguel however has turned into a sex crazed hulk of a degu , he has accidentally (escape) met pablo and just tried to sexually engage with him constantly until pablo just had enough and ran to me.
Jose is still apart from miguel and he appears to enjoy atagonising him through the bars, interestingly to me, its the lone degu doing the leave me alone noises and the previously mauled one doing the antagonising. Miguel has a bitten nose and jose 2 bitten fingers for their efforts - on their first night seperated, thankfully no injuries yesterday and calmer interactions.
All in all a much calmer cage , i just feel for miguel as hes clerly very frustrated in every way, hes even been biting me when im changing his bowls etc (gently but forefully, as he sees me as an obstruction to escape.
Been very expensive tho, i think all new degu owners should consider buying a large second cage as £90 for the rubbish P@H have was a big hit, if this is expected at this stage in their lives.
|
|
|
Post by nuttz on Dec 1, 2011 13:42:14 GMT
|
|
nubbin
Burrowing Degu
Posts: 237
|
Post by nubbin on Dec 1, 2011 22:55:41 GMT
i got the xtrail cage, its amazing, really well made and perfect for introductions/reintroductions as it is already split into 2 with a small hole between the 2 halves that i easily covered with mesh, the only problem is the trays are quite shallow so im having to hoover up litter and degu poo every morning!
|
|
|
Post by scoobos on Dec 2, 2011 11:19:29 GMT
Long story short,things have got really bad in my degu world.....
Miguel got into the main cage last night and pablo decided he'd challange him for leadership and got both of them badly hurt. I came in to see little pablo giving miguel a real fight (mig was passive, as was jose)
I have no idea how long miguel was in the main cage for, but it was less than an hour as ive been checking on them every 45 mins every day since the big fights.
Strange how jose made it totally unscathed and pab and mig absolutely wrecked. Ive never had any problems between these two and theyve had excersize time together every day (i was keeping mig and jose seperate only).
What a mare....
Going to vets today with a possible terminally ill miguel .....
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Dec 2, 2011 15:52:15 GMT
I am so very sorry to hear this, Scoobos! This is very distressing!! I hope that both boys will come home OK, and that if your vet has recommened the vitamin supp, that you will resume it's use, for your peace of mind, and for the boys calmer future.
|
|
|
Post by scoobos on Dec 4, 2011 23:58:04 GMT
We'll get there! Miguel has a suspected fractured shoulder and a badly bitten throat , hopefully not broken but we'll reassess on thursday after a week of medicine. He lost a lot of blood.
Took all 3 to vets, pablo was really wrecked, his ears (2 days later) are ripped, torn and really bright red.
Vet really knew her stuff about dominance but she reckons tnat something is wrong (e.g. Might not even be same litter) , she also showed that miguels actually getting bullied at the mo. She believes that when top goo loses his place he has to fall right to the bottom of the pile, seems that miguels not ready for that, but the other two have established otherwise. Time will tell.......
My personal feeling is that miguel is just really frustrated and doesnt understand that their are two sexes, or has the other two confused, all he seems to want to do is mate with them, and they put up with his advances to a point and then lose their tempers. I dont thi k this is dominance,but im a rookie , so ill trust the vet.
That said without miguel,the other two are settling down with only very occassional serious spats.
Until thursday, i'm keeping them as is, until they heal. Getting a lot of metacam and baytril in them at the moment and hope that miguel returns to his normal unswollen self.
|
|
|
Post by beamfrost on Dec 10, 2011 11:59:52 GMT
Awww hope your degus are ok/
|
|
|
Post by scoobos on Dec 12, 2011 12:28:45 GMT
well its not gone well. When seperated all degus refused to eat and became generally miserable , introductions went well to the point where breeder, vet and i decided to keep them together . Theyve lost loads of weight as they all went depressed, but are eating again now. They also sleep together without complaint, despite having seriously hurt each other . Whatever it was is settled, but at a big cost to all of us. Its very distressing to see injuries so severe, im just glad i dont have kids in the house. Pablo is pretty much missing all the skin off one side of his face from wounds that didnt heal well. Occasional small time "normal" fights unfortunately opened old wounds, long story short all 3 are now getting neutered at the vets suggestion, there seems no other way to keep these guys going. (jose needs a stitch in his face where he scratched it running into a chewed twig, pablo needs stitches if possible - vet said if were taking the risk of putting them under we should consider neutering at 11 months) I just hope my little fellas make it through this and can survive the week in solitary they are all going to have Ill let you know when ive picked them up .... Tragic story so far....... I'm a fully grown man but its tough not to feel for these guys even afterr owning them so short a time.
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Dec 12, 2011 15:38:20 GMT
I feel with you, Scoobos!! It's really hard to see them damaging each other so viciously, yet also suffering so deeply from their necessary separation. I'm glad they are back together, eating, sleeping, and communing as a settle group . . . but so sorry for the steep cost of it to all of you.
I know the vet has recommended they be neutered at 11 months, but my advice to you is to watch them and see how they are doing. If they have truly overcome their differences, then I think there is the chance that neutering will not be necessary. Now, if you yourself feel this the the only option you have for your boys, I'll not try to talk you out of it, your peace counts too!! But, if you are not sold on it yet, do watch and see how they are doing as they heal. When will they be 11 months?
|
|
|
Post by scoobos on Dec 16, 2011 14:24:30 GMT
Here's an update Apologies for the walls of text ! Thanks again for posting Deguconvert and everyone else, it was a great help. All 3 of my fellas have been neutered after consultation with my breeder and vets - there was no other option for the following reasons: 1. due to injuries caused we seperated them, when they immediately stopped eating (they have JUST returned to normal eating patterns) - Miguel even hurt his shoulder charging the bars to try get to the others, causing it to swell and need treatment. 2. Jose then decided to try gouging his eye out by dashing and emergency squeaking through his own cage. 3. Pablo has no fear and massive sex drive - he faught through bars with the boss overnight and had his face half bitten off for the heck of it. (seriously, all skin removed from bottom left side of face - flesh and muscle visible but no damage to it) - It's like Miguel knew the absolute limit (or not). 4. Vet suggested I contact my breeder as they thought it unlikely they would survive split, or be valid candidates to put up for adoption. (40g+ lost weight in 3 days of seperation is scary weight loss for a goo that wont stop running). Various trips to vet to try entice them to eat when seperated / reduce swelling etc , ended in calling in the breeder. Breeder was upset that I'd split them "so early" in his opinion and suggested we re-house all of them in the same old cage with mixed substrates. The breeder was adamant that splitting on sight of blood is not a good idea and you should only split when they are seriously locked in a ball for many seconds. His standpoint was that goos are very clever and not stupid enough to "go back" to fight with terminal injuries.... (easy to say but terrible to watch). His standpoint was that every "serious" fight you split increases the chance of a fatality and to let them "fight it out"... (I don't wish to discredit anyone, as I believe this advice is very risky, but with both the vet and the breeder behind it, and 2 constantly blood soaked goos, I followed it). This WORKED!!!!! there was a massive fight to start with and some old wounds were re-opened - but by accident, there was no balls of fury or biting from any of them (this has been 5 days+ together with only cute normal goo fights going on over normal things , like food and wheel usage) Unfortuantely, pablos face needed anethesia to repair as did Jose's Eye - so the vet suggested that given the ferocity of the past fights and the injuries (and the inability to split the goos without them pining) that we should consider neutering. Aparantly the main risk is putting them to sleep, and as 2 were going to be operated on anyway, I thought this was a good idea. All 3 have been "done" and have recovered really well , it may be a couple of weeks before all testosterone as gone, but so far so good - and most importantly the goos look happy again (strangely!) theres lots of body twisting and grooming going on and they have slept together every single night now since the op. I've just let them out into their full size cage (they were all together in a very small area during recovery, although its ideal to split, given the pining problems we kept them together) - and they seem really happy so far. End Thanks for reading and if anyone else has similar problems , my (rookie) advice would be to not delay on the vet and speak to the breeder of the colony if at all possible - another owner may have exactly the same problems with the same litter at the same time! I am amazed at the strength and resilience of these fellas - they heal so quickly and show very little signs of pain - if they look hurt they are really hurt (e.g Miguel's very slight limp with a fractured shoulder!). I'll keep you updated, but looks initially like neutering was the correct course of action here, despite how much I resented the idea of doing it.
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Dec 16, 2011 16:11:14 GMT
Well done, Scoobos!! You've been through an awful lot, and come out with some serious experience in caring for your degus. I don't at all envy your last few months, and do not mean to imply that "experience is worth any cost." But, now that you DO have it, I think you will find that it will multiply in value as you go forward. You will be able to help others, when their degus fight, with the wisdom you've gained through this nasty, nasty time.
Thank you so much for the detailed update on your boys and how much better they are doing now. Definitely worth a celebration!!
|
|