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Post by moletteuk on Oct 24, 2011 16:35:29 GMT
I just thought I would post a couple of pics showing how my degus have chewed the back of their cage. It's plywood sanded smooth, so it's not an issue of them chewing at a knot in the wood. I'm lucky that their cage is a cabinet lined with plywood, so they would have two layers to chew through to escape, so it would take them quite a while to chew right through. They chewed the patch on the left in less than a couple of hours. It's not a case of inadequate cage or boredom either, they have over 2 sq m of cage floor area and access to a large playpen most of the time on most days. I just wanted to warn everyone after finding out that I'm not the only one with this problem.
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Post by degualot on Oct 24, 2011 16:48:35 GMT
very curious, I'm almost ready to build my wood cage as well. Wonder what possesed them to attack the wall with all that free space, well I suppose, Goos will be Goos.
I thought they couldn't bite through flat surfaces, curious, I wonder what other members have to say about this. Any tips people?
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 24, 2011 16:58:01 GMT
Here's another couple of pics: this one shows the repaired cage, I attached sheet aluminium that I was lucky to find at the local scrapyard for just a few pounds. they chewed another area on the ground floor just a few days later so I had to cover that over too. I wiped the aluminium over with bitter apple spray (not that that will stop them if they take a fancy to it) and they haven't bothered with it or even chewed around the edge (yet). It also shows the other slight problem I have that my 3 won't accept any substrate anywhere around the wheel downstairs, and they a wee a lot there, so it gets dirty quickly and I had to line the base with wipeable plastic because the plain wood was getting smelly. Second pic shows how my 3 can chew a perfectly smooth sheet of plastic, if you can make out the chew marks. they haven't had much success really damaging it, but it shows they can get their teeth onto a perfectly flat surface. It's thick plastic film which doesn't have any give in it at all.
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Oct 25, 2011 5:32:41 GMT
@ Molette I am impressed and disturbed at the effort your degus have put into chewing the flat back panel. I have never heard or witnessed such behavior...and Dingle87's case is the first I have come across where degus have successfully managed to chew their way out of a wooden enclosure. I do not remember who (either Maravilla or Apology72) was telling me about ONE of the degus in the group being able to chew a flat surface...but apart from this, I have never heard of anything similar. Dingle87's case for those who have no read about it: deguworld.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=chat&action=display&thread=9228I am willing to edit/add information or notices to the article on cage building. But I find it hard to warn readers about something that has been tested and successfully used as housing method here and on other communities. I have asked Fred to continue digging in the much larger deguforum.de in search of similar cases and how the owners have resolved the situation. If anyone else has similar experiences, please relate them here.
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 25, 2011 14:43:50 GMT
Just some more info as I think of it. I've no reason to think that my goos have abnormal skull or teeth, they haven't shown any teeth problems, but they are only a year old. They weren't directly inbred in the last couple of generations that I know of. I have a friend with degus who says hers can chew a hole right through the middle of a shelf. I think Chloe has stated on the degutopia forum that degus can chew a flat surface, and I think this is why they don't recommend wooden cages there (make of that what you will as anecdotal evidence).
The place in the photo that they chewed is in their nest. My goos have the philosophy of if it's there, chew it. They like to chew when they are comfy and half asleep even, plus the wall was piled high with nest material so I couldn't directly see what they were up to, and I suppose they felt safe to spend an extended period chewing there. I really don't think they were trying to chew their way out, the cage is very big and they have free access to the playpen all day so they could get out of the cage at the time they were chewing the wall. I think my degus just like to chew, and they like to modify their habitat to suit themselves.
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Post by fred on Oct 25, 2011 15:33:10 GMT
Let's try and not get overexcited on this and the bloody nightmare thread (moderators: would it be possible to combine these threads?). It is not that we suddenly have to realise that wooden cages are unsuitable for degus! I haven't yet asked questions on deguforum.de, because I wanted to learn dingle's details first, but I couldn't help doing a few more searches (still without finding anything!!). I would estimate that the number of wooden cages build there and amongst our members here may well be a thousand. If further searches and asking questions revealed say ten cases where degus have “chewed a hole in a flat surface”, what would we make of this? Quite frankly, to me it would show that wooden cages are safe. I would be very confident that in these 1% of cages plausible explanations can be found why these very rare exceptions shouldn't worry us in the least. The “wooden cage movement” in the English speaking degu world has suffered long enough from the deliberate misinformation spread by Degutopia. Let's make sure that readers of this forum don't get the wrong impression here!
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 25, 2011 16:57:26 GMT
Who's getting overexcited? I'm just sharing information.
I still think wooden cages are great. Perhaps it's just a matter of recommending daily checks on the cage.
I think it would be interesting to know how many degus chew flat surfaces.
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Post by fred on Oct 25, 2011 19:09:47 GMT
More searches on deguforum.de and deguboard.de and I am quite confident that I haven't missed anything (they do have more refined search options). On deguboard.de I found one case. This was mentioned on several threads and not a single time did anyone else chip in with a similar experience. Interestingly, this degu owner wrote: “His teeth are normal, he simply has a different technique. Instead of gnawing the wood, he scratches with his teeth as long as it takes to find a point of attack”. On deguforum.de I didn't find a single case. I believe this to be real because 1) I found many instances where degus chewed hole in flat surfaces of softer materials like plastic; 2) I found many statements that flat smooth wooden surfaces used in cages are safe from attack - without a single instance where this was contradicted by another member with an experience to the contrary. However, I found Maravilla's example of a chewed transport box: www.degus-online.de/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33994&hilit=glatte+Fl%C3%A4ch%2A Note that this is pine, i.e. a softwood, and we might have the scratch effect here.
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 25, 2011 19:57:03 GMT
The wood in my cage is hardwood plywood, and when I first put the boys in after building it, there was some experimental gnawing on the sides of the cage, but most didn't go very deep at all. All I had to do was shoo them away from the place a few times and then they just forgot about it all together. (If that would only work to keep them away from the skirting around the room!!) Might be a different story with the two pups, but has yet to be seen. They gnaw like mad on the pine edging around their levels, and I think I will have to change some of them in a few months to a year, but I knew that would happen.
I don't have any fears about the cage being unsafe or unsuitable at all. I love it, they love it, and it exceeds all the hopes I had for it. So they are chewing on the cage wall a tiny bit? It can be fixed.
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Post by Bexi87 on Oct 25, 2011 20:30:34 GMT
Sorry for the delays in responding. I've managed to get a couple of pictures of the damage. The cage is made from MDF which is very smooth. I can only imagine that they have managed to scratch a dent into the wood and chew away. From the inside of the cage (with the door open) With the doors shut (to show that the door is flush against the side so they couldn't get at the corner) This will not put me off building another wooden cage, and I have my plan finalised but finances at the moment do not make building the new cage possible. I'm hoping to be able to afford by the New Year but I have wedged an old shelf over the damage until I can get to B&Q at the weekend.
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Post by davx on Oct 25, 2011 22:44:38 GMT
This might be the case. It is not enough that the surface is smooth. There are also other important points: - corners and holes have to be protected with metal or glass - thickness of the material - hardness of the material - motivation (that means small cages or a mate on the other side of the wall encouraging the degu to gnaw etc.)
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Post by davx on Oct 25, 2011 22:47:17 GMT
Here some pictures of corner protecion: punched metal tape: I attached the metal with glue:
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Oct 26, 2011 5:05:43 GMT
David brings out some good points (thanks for the photos). It is a good idea to suggest future cage builders to re-enforce the cage with metal protection on the edges and corners.
However, this still does not explain the case of a few degus being able to chew on a flat surfaces without having access to any edges. It sounds as though some individual degus develop a technique for gnawing and eventually chewing on a flat surface.
This may sound silly, but we all know that degus (being communal animals) learn from each other. I have seen my own degus teach each other naughty habits and traits. Perhaps this is a case of several degus learning to chew this way from watching the original culprits.
@ Dingle and Molette I do not like hypothesising, but so far this seems to be all I can do to come up with some sort of answer. I have never witnessed or heard of a similar situation and after seeing both of your cages I am convinced it has nothing to do with a flaw in the construction. Dingle87's cage I am most familiar with, since I have used her cage as an example many times.
Will be looking more into this myself. I am sorry to hear about your unfortunate experiences but I am glad you are not completely put off from DIY enclosures because of this.
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Post by philbailey1806 on Oct 26, 2011 5:13:39 GMT
Sorry it has taken me so long to respond, but my degus have also managed to chew a flat surface, just because they felt like it. they are still in thickets house cages at the moment, as I'm starting my new job soon and was thinking of building my own cages when I start getting paid. Anyway, they have managed to chew the wall extensively behind their cages, even through the wire mesh (both the boys and girls have done this) even though the wall was perfectly smooth and papered. I'm now worried as I don 't think I will have the funds to keep building cage after cage and may just get bigger metal ones instead of building my own vivarium style cages.
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Post by fred on Oct 26, 2011 15:43:23 GMT
I have started a thread on deguforum.de ( www.degus-online.de/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36159&p=334516#p334516 ) and already received a number of interesting responses. I will report here when I have a better idea where problems with material and/or design might lie. deguconvert - could you please post a picture of what your little monsters managed to do? I have given them the link to this thread and I hope will get some specific comments on each of the three cases.
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 26, 2011 19:02:02 GMT
I've had a quick look at your german thread, Fred, and just to say that the screw hole visible was from me putting a piece of metal over the first small right hand patch of chewing, which occurred months ago, so can be discounted as a cause. I had to take that piece of metal off to put the full sheet of metal on.
I've seen that you can buy sheets of thin aluminium on ebay, which could be useful for people.
I'm sorry that other people have had problems aswell. I'd love to discuss ideas on improving wooden cages for 'chompy' goos.
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Post by Maravilla on Oct 27, 2011 15:19:29 GMT
It was me who observed degus chewing on a flat surface, in two occasions: first the case of the transport box made of plywood and linked by Fred (here it was pure boredom: we had to put our Thelma and Louise in the transport box for a couple of hours for intensive cage cleaning) and second a degu chewing a floor level inside their labyrinth (I suppose it was also due to boredom... it can happen): Nevertheless I would always use wooden cages. There is no reason to avoid them, and less as there are no (for me acceptable and affordable) alternatives available on the market. At the moment I am housing 4 own groups, all living in wooden cages. Of course there are chewing sometimes on the cage, but mostly they do it on the wood designated for chewing and easy to replace or on the furnishing. Moletteuk, you said that our degus can use a playpen from time to time. Do you think there is a connection between there intensive chewing and this playpen? I know a couple of cases of intensive chewing on the cage (not flat surfaces but bares or mesh) where it is supposed that degus do it because they try to get to "their other territory". In my other deguforum lots of people have wooden cages (complete DIY, wooden vivariums or cages made out of wardrobes) but there are only limited information/ reported cases of such destructive degus. I am sorry that yours seem to be such extreme cases but I don't agree that this is a reason to warn people from using wooden cages. I think it is important to see it as a whole and think about the materials used (not all kinds of wood are equally suitable; I would never use poplar plywood as it is too soft) and the possible reasons for this behaviour (boredom, lack of diversity, too many degus in too small cages, etc.).
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 27, 2011 18:18:05 GMT
They have access to the playpen for about 12hours a day usually, and they had access at the time they were chewing the cage, so unless they were forward planning for the other 12hrs, I don't think that was the reason. As I mentioned earlier, I don't really think they were chewing to get out, they were just idly chewing, they chewed a wide area to a shallow depth rather than a focussed effort.
And just to reiterate, I still think my wooden cage is great, it was easily repaired, there was no problem as I spotted the damage quickly.
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Post by fred on Oct 27, 2011 20:42:46 GMT
sorry that yours seem to be such extreme cases but I don't agree that this is a reason to warn people from using wooden cages. That's exactly my worry. Not that this thread is aiming to do so but its title exaggerates the severity of the problem and the sudden accumulation of cases (well, only three left now) may leave the reader with a false impression. I believe even the recommendation to check the cages daily would lead to unnecessary concern. On deguforum.de there seem to have been only two horror scenario cases where degus have actually chewed their way out of wooden cages (out of several hundred). In both cases the reports have received some scepticism from other members and the question of which type of wood was affected has not been answered. I suspect that either some unsuitable wood had been used or that there had been some fault in the design. Nevertheless, I think we should - without any panic - review which types of wood are suitable because they are -hard -smooth -affordable Maravilla Am I right that the shelf was a relatively soft wood (pine?) and that it may have been further softened up by degu urine? moletteuk Do you know what type of plywood it is? I am also wondering what effect the paint may have had? Bexi87 Is there any chance that they could have made it to the edge? Sometimes when I can't close the glass doors completely because there is some shavings or seeds stuck in the runner, they squeeze their snouts into the gap. From the pictures it seems to me that the glass doors of your cage are not set back so it seems a theoretical possibility. Not that it would explain all the damage but perhaps the degree.
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Oct 28, 2011 1:07:03 GMT
Reviewing the wood types recommended to build a cage is a good idea. Perhaps the cage building article can be edited to include suggestions/warnings for certain wood types.
This gives us lots to think about. I am very much for the idea of offering more precise information regarding good wood types. We are open to suggestions.
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