Lost Trust/Scared Degu

[mhb]

Hello all,

I have lurked on the site reading your excellent advice for a while so thought this was the best place to come.

My partner and I got three 3 month old Degu at the end of April after moving house.
At first the cage was quite low and they were timid and frightened when we entered the room from above and behind them so I put them on a shelf on the wall at eye height so you can only approach them from the front and they have been fine - in fact they have been ruling the house ever since and more than happy to parade themselves in front of guests etc.

The flipside to this is that we had to have the house rewired (long story) and they have been fine with the electrician taking an angle grind to the walls in the room next door etc so they are not shy of confidence and what I would like to think is security.

Since calm has come over the house we have spoiled them and my partner and I have bought them toys, handled them, put them in balls and tried to stimulate them so they don't get bored - they have gone through one plastic wheel and severely damaged the second.

As a result two weeks ago I bought them a steel one and put it in last Wednesday and they loved it, but we couldn't remove the tray to clean them without taking it off. We also bought one of the puppy play pens that were on here in another thread.

On Sunday we cleaned them as usual but I raised the back platform to accommodate the wheel and make our lives easier.
We also placed them in the pen for 15/20 minutes.
They didn't respond as well as we would have hoped but then again one of them seems to suffer separation anxiety from the cage - she has never climbed out on to us like the other two (one fairly throws herself out usually). So we quickly put them back.

After this I (stupidly in hindsight)put the cardboard we had lined the playpen under the cage on the shelf, they really didn't like this and were very skittish and hid under the wheel etc and wouldn't come talk to us like they usually do when you approach the cage.
Later one of them was scrabbling and gnawing at the corner of the cage in a very intense manner and wouldn't respond to a 'stern' voice so on advice (admittedly not from here) I blew gently on her to make her stop and once more she ran and hid.

Since then all three of them have been behaving quite scared at times but it isn't consistent.

I came home from work yesterday and they all hid (they dislike the sound of keys we have found) but five minutes later I was able to put my arm in the cage and had all three climbing on me, but whilst I was in the next room I could here them jumping at sounds (none of which would have been as loud as an angle grinder on the other side of the wall).
My partner came home and they all hid (which I don't understand as technically I was the 'bad guy') but then later they all took treats and came out in their ball one by one and the boisterous one climbed on other of us outside the cage.
This morning my partner went downstair and feed them (as is their usual routine) but when she entered the room they hid or remained stiff rather than jumping on her as she tried to put the food in.

I managed to remove the cardboard slowly from under the cage this morning without spooking them in case it had a weird smell or something on it, but obviously this is causing us both quite a bit of distress as it seems that they have lost their trust in us in the space of one day.

Sorry for the long debut post but it seems that they are (intermittently) scared of us but then will play with us and then hide again.

Edit: Sorry meant to ask if anyone has seemingly lost the trust of their Goos and had to rebuild it?

[fred]

Hi there and welcome to the forum!! Degu behaviour can sometimes be pretty strange. First of all I would give it a few more days and see whether it is indded a case of lost trust, which can be rebuild, or something else that made them behave unexpectedly. Can I ask you whereabouts you live? Some parts of the UK suffered from the tail end of Katia and I believe my girls were clearly affected by it.

[mhb]

Sept 14, 2011 8:51:27 GMT @fred said:

Hi there and welcome to the forum!!

Hi and thanks Fred!
I guess I'm paranoid to the extreme - they will still take food out of my hands and as I say yesterday they were happily sat on me nibbling me.

We got them because I'm allergic to cats and my good lady is an animal lover so we did a lot of research before getting them and have agonised over making sure they are loved and nurtured over the last 5 months so this seems like a bit of a blow for both of us.

We live in Exeter, Devon and have been battered by the wind and rain a bit - I have spent the last week picking up my misses sunflowers every morning!

[moletteuk]

I wouldn't worry about it too much, I'm sure they'll settle back down. Ours seem to have scaredy cat periods, and are a bit suspicious of my partner if he's been away overnight. I guess you have to make allowances as caution is the only thing that keeps them alive in the wild.

I think the playpen is worth persevering with, but they need to get used to it. You need to set it up with access back to the cage, so they can come and go as they please and build their confidence. I remember starting mine with the playpen and it took them aaaaages to pluck up the courage to come all the way down the ramp into the pen, and then the slightest thing would send them hurtling back up to the cage. Once they are used to it, you can remove the access back to the cage and do your cage maintenance without them 'helping'.

[moletteuk]

PS It sounds to me more like they are just on a higher alert level, rather than trust being broken. They are hiding when they detect sudden movements or noises, like someone entering the room, they are scared of the movement or noise, not you personally. HTH.

[mhb]

Thank you for your replies - never had Degus before and as a consciencous pet owner I have been worrying as we seemed to be doing so well until Sunday.

Came home from work today and they weren't much better really, but it is clear from the mess on the floor they had been jumpy all day.
I spent time with my arm in the cage and had two of them (Jalapeno the boisterous one and Serrano the inbetween one) snuggle down on my hand and try to sleep .The really scared one came on my hand but any movement and she was gone.
At one point one of them sat on their shelf and barked/squeaked for a minute or two - ears back.
I did manage to give them some Basil leaves grown from our garden and they liked that. I put an old sock of mine with paper in the cage and they have taken it as bedding.

I'm relieved a little to hear that others have scaredy cat phases - as mentioned earlier we have been battered a bit by the weather and there is a Rose bush outside which has been bashing against the bay window a lot so I have trimmed this back so it doesn't do this any more.

As for the playpen it seemed a little small and enclosed for them and offered nothing more than the cage space - P@H claimed this was enough for three but the calculator says not so I shall have to invest in a cage topper once I get paid to give them more room to roam.
I work for a manufacturering company so today I half inched four large pieces of board and have created (in the room with them today to no distress) a large robust pen which can be fitted to their cage or kept as it's own space. This thing sits on the floor and occupies most of the living room floor (our lounge is impossible to Goo proof).
I put Jalapeno in it for five minutes with some toys and a bit of food and she was fine so fingers corssed as I have been downstairs tonight with little drama that tomorrow I can introduce the other two to it and help enrich them and encourage them to spend more time with us and get through this.

Thanks again for the advice, I honestly wish I had seen half of this site before getting them as we thought we had done a decent amount of research but we have so much to learn!

[moletteuk]

Pets@home are terrible for cage advice (and sexing). There's lots of advice in the cage section on here, but the general consensus is that two of the Pets@home cages fixed together makes a reasonable home, or you might like to think about making something and attaching what you have to that.

My girls have a permanent playpen which is just made out of sheet material and is big enough that I can get in there with them and spend some time. They will appreciate tubes and cardboard boxes in a playpen so they have somewhere to hide.

Things like the rose bush can really spook them, so you've done the right thing sorting that. If you are still puzzled by any behaviour, all you can really do is watch them and try to figure out what is going on, if they get scared they will usually look in the direction of what is bothering them. Things like reflections can bother them.

If you can lie down in the playpen with them, it's great for bonding and building trust and familiarity (and great fun!)

I'm sure you'll get the hang of deguing in no time, you seem to care about them and are interested in them, so you can't really fail

[tiifu]

Hi there!
Degus will act like that from time to time. Sometimes it is predictable, like when you have to clean the cage the first few times, invite a stranger over, or do something else loud and unexpected. Other times it just seems to come out of nowhere. The best was to get through it is with patience.
Do everything you always did. Don't act differently because the degus are acting differently, it will stress them. Try to avoid broadcasting upset emotions when one of them gets scared.
With a bit of time your degus will start acting like themselves again. They will also be less likely to spook next time when whatever set it off happens, as you showed them that it is nothing to be afraid of.

Please do not use those "hamster balls". They are extremely stressful for degus, and can cause spinal damage.
Also wanted to point out that you should not use plastic wheels. Actually keep any and all plastic out of the cage. Unlike rats, degus do not have a mechanism which prevents them from swallowing things they chew on. Plastic, when swallowed, can lead to fatal internal damage. The steel wheel you now have, as long as it does not have a "scissor effect" and is at least 30cm/12 inches in diameter is a good choice.

Btw. There is not much you can do if your degus decide to chew on the cage. They might be doing this out of boredom, frustration, or simply because they feel like it. One of mine thinks that rattling the cage mesh is a much more fun way to wake me up in the morning than the alarm clock. Only her sense of time is a bit off. >.<

[mhb]

The help and advice is much appreciated, it was fairly distressing to find that despite doing what we had thought was an extensive amount of research due to their fair unknown nature that there was still so much to know!
Still every day being a school day makes it a challenge...
lol

I was massively annoyed by the fact that P@H sold us that cage stating it would be 'absolutely fine' for three full grown Degus, but then again from a business point of view our girls were three months old and brown which apparently don't sell as well so they wanted shot of them.
I have seen that John Hopewell does a cage topper which will double the size and have spent a fair bit of time trawling through the cage section (some incredible set ups!) to get more of a handle on what we should give them.
Just got to wait for payday really...

The huge play pen was a success at the weekend - probably more stressful for us as they looked to explore - but there reaction was a million times better (probably because it's not enclosed). We put the cage in the pen and my partner sat in it with them with a whole load of newer toys and they ran all over her whilst I played fielder in case they scaled the cage and tried throwing themselves off into the lounge. They seemed happier and could return to the cage or hide under it if something spooked them (usually one of the other jumping up the side).

That said they have been a little better in the last couple of days - they will spook every now and then and seem to keep clearing patches of the floor but don't seem unhappy - we had a dinner party for six of us on Saturday and they didn't bat an eyelid.

We originally got the plastic wheel as part of the P@H 'Degu Kit' but given they wore the axel out in 3 months of the first one and were well on the way to destroying the second it would have worked out at £80 a year in wheels so the open one for £50 made economic sense!
lol
And is is the 12" one so they can run at full stretch which we hadn't seen them do - they are fast!

Re: Balls I am a little conflicted here, some people say no, some say yes.
We didn't buy the small Hamster one - we bought a large one - our three all climb into it, not that we shut the lid on them and make them us it.
It doesn't seem to cause them distress... They love it and get all excited at the sight of it, but so far we have limited their time in it.

I think the cage rattling is because the cage may have been enough when they were three months old, now we have had them a further 5 months they have grown physically and are also used to us and life and I seriously suspect they are bored at times.
Despite it involving redoing my plans for how to decorate the lounge we need to double the cage size and put a few more varied things in for them.

Thanks for all the continued interest and advice.
I can't tell you how much you have helped put my mind at ease and allowed us to focus on understanding better what they need.

[malteser60]

There are conflicting messages about using a ball. Technically it's not as if the ball is going to cause immediate and permanent damage - although if you had a small ball then of course there will be spinal damage through the ball being small. But it sounds like you bought the bigger ball, although what size is it? It may still be too small.

I personally don't approve of using a ball, and many others are of like mind. In all honesty i'm not too keen on them even for hamsters. As you probably noticed now in the pen degus love sniffing things out, problem solving, pulling things, chewing on things (although this is not necessarily a good thing lol!). They will not benefit from this experience using the ball - essentially the ball creates sensory deprivation. Also there is the tendency for the degus to overheat in the ball. And to top it off if they're distressed in any way they can't escape out of the ball into hiding causing more stress.

And finally, the ball provides nothing more than the wheel in the cage does.

[debdegu]

I for one have a wheel in my cage my two dosn't use but its still there, The ball i have are the right size for my degus it not a small one for hamsters at all it a big one. My degus have no issues with going in the ball at all, although they run around my room freely as well. I dont have room to build a pen(and i mean that). I always there to make sure my degus are ok and there only out for an hour or less. They get lots of exercice as well even without a pen. Sorry if this insults anyone your option is yours. I think the ball helps if you dont want your degu to get to anything you dont want them to ^-^

I'm sure your degus will settle mine always have a little tiff when I clean now every now and then there fine though, they hate the wind and squeek to let me know to close the curtians and door its helps.

[moletteuk]

There are discussions dedicated to balls on here. I think you just need to use common sense. It's easy to tell whether they like it or not, you just open it up and see whether they hop out or not, and see how willing they are to get in.

Have a look on ebay for a second thickets cage.

[mhb]

Well ball issues aside, they have been fine with us recently to a point.
They will play with us quite happily, but they know when they have been naughty though.
They have made an absolutely massive mess of their cage - moved all of their bedding and toys into a huge pile and kicked loads of sawdust and hay out of the cage so I am modifying it this weekend but adding some kiln dried pine around the bottom above the tray to stop having to sweep the floor time and time again and every time we sit down to watch a film one rattles the c clips and another gnaws on the wood.

I appreciate they will do this from time to time anyway, but there is a mischievous persistence to it at the moment because if any of us stand up they stop and watch us and sitting back down again they carry on!
Little buggers.

Still I know they are feeling the crampt space and have managed to get myself another Thicketts cage off ebay this morning and have planned an extension that should give them more space to run, climb, have toys, better bedding etc so hope that between the play pen and the new Goo palace they will settle down a bit.
For now.
lol

[Kat]

You will really see the difference when you have attached the second cage. I have a set of 3 P@H cages linked. Be sure buy a file before cutting anything though as these bits will be super sharp. Also wear long sleeves. I looked like I had been attacked by the time I had finished connecting them.

Have you bought the wheel yet? I actually sell metal ones on here for £25 each. If you are interested here in the link. deguworld.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=saleitems&action=display&thread=9004

Kat
x

[mhb]

Thanks Kat - I hope so as they are so lovely really, despite acting out at the moment!

The advantage of working in a manufacturing environment is that I have access to all of those things like wire cutters and have files etc from extensive years of DIY.
I'll definitely take some pictures of the progress and will bare in mind the long sleeves - I have gardening gloves and long nosed pilers on stand by!

Those wheels look awesome and I had to come on this board about a week after buying a John Hopewell one - typical of my luck!
I am after a metal flying saucer one though...

Mx

[Kat]

Doh.
I'm still trying with those. I have made one but it's quite noisy. I'm not sure what bearing to use for them.

If I ever figure it out I will get back to you.

Kat
x

[mhb]

Thanks Kat - I dearly want to get one and looked at making the Lazy Susan but 39 cm would take up too much floor space and I want them to have the freedom to run around on the new level and don't fancy getting a plastic one.
At £85 a pop for a metal one they won't be that lucky unless my Euromillions comes in!
lol

As an update on our little ones; they do seemed to have chilled out a bit recently.
We have had them out in the ball and on us a lot more in the last week and last night we moved the dinning table over to the cage and put a ramp from it to the table.
On the table we put some familiar toys and some new and exciting ones and we let them explore whilst we kept them from peering too far over the edge and eating the table itself.
At firs they were pretty nervous, but curiosity got the better of them and they ran around it like crazy and played on the toys and interacted with us.
We put them back in and gave them some hay and they cuddled up and went to sleep.
It was really positive so we are going to use this formula for a while as it is quick and easy to set up and save the play pen for when we have a bit more time.

On another good note the courier turned up at work today with the Thickets cage from ebay and I have borrowed lots of tools from work and will begin attacking it when I get home and get the top half ready. At the weekend I shall buy the wood for the second level and get lots of branches off my parents when I go back home for my birthday and then hopefully by the beginning of next week I can give them a double decker cage full of lots more natural and stimulating things.

Onwards and upwards.