2+months, second reintroduction failed.. :'(

[degualot]

Two months ago my two boys Tobby and Taco starting fighting seriously outside their cage in the play area. Then they started fighting in their cages so I was forced to seperate them.

My first attempt failed and today a month later my second attempt has failed again following all the right steps in order. It's strange because a few days or even hours after fighting, they will talk to each other through the cages but once they physically meet it doesn't last long before they make each other bleed through a fight.

Today a month after the last attept I took the necessery steps. I filled the bathtub with hay, treats and toys to try distract them.I give them both vanilla sandbaths with vianilla essence. I let them both in and observed. I was so happy they were glad to see each other, they were smiling and enjoying as they started grooming each other. Taco even got on his back so bobby could get to his belly to clean.

then after eactly 8 minutes, the scuabble started , at first it looked like just regular dominance fighting, like boxing, trying to mount one and other then I knew it was getting more serious, and as I went for my seperating device they formed the deadly Goo ball. They managed to get in a few bites which don't seem deep but did bleed, not pouring of blood but a little bloody. I have now put them back in seperate cages after cleaning their wounds. Guess what, they both started talking again like they were friends. now they are sleeping it off..

I feel like i'm going insane. They are lonely and bored without a companion each. they had each other but now they have nobody because they are both to stubborn. It seems to me like the guide on reintroduction doesn't always work. so I'm going to attempt something different. If that fails it breaks my heart but I may have to look at adoption, I don't want to think about it yet because it would break my heart but I need to look at options. I can't get any more degus, I don't have the room for more cages. I have Victor and Casper in a huge cage and I have Bobby and Taco now in two seperate cages which use to be one big cage before the split.

so I have three cages now, I do not have room to introduce more Degus and even if I did and they didn't work out i'd be screwed. It really breaks my heart seeing these brothers fight like this. They love each other I can tell, when he was smiling getting groomed in those 8 minutes I could see what they both had been missing. I don't want to give up but they are proving impossible in my view...

They can't be alone forever but my question is would they be better off with other Degus, like females.... i'm so messed up I don't know what to think.

I was thinking should I adopt them to somebody else who maybe has some females one can go with and the same with the other... I just don't know. I want the brothers to get back together but not sure how.

The whole wait a long time until they are ready has not worked for me, they look ready because through their cages they speak to each other friendly, outside of their cages that mood changes... so for instance Degutopias guide in my situation has proven not work, so i'm looking at others..

Adoption is a very last opion for me as I can't even handle the thought of it, I tear up at the mear suggestion but I can't help but consider it an option. The other option is to leave them seperate forever but again they are already lonely and depressed and I just can't fill in another Goos shoes. I work a lot and spend what spare time I have with them but that is not enough to replace another Degu....

I really am depressed here...

[fred]

What a shame, I am sure you couldn't do any more I am wondering how much the chances of a successful reintroduction could be increased if both were to be neutered? I know it doesn't always work, but would it be worth trying? If they still couldn't be brought to live together, it would at least open the possibility to have them each paired with a female (which would leave you with an awful decision between the two). I really hope somebody will come up with a better suggestion, but since you were asking for options, this may be one down the line.

[degualot]

what you mentioned fred about neutering has crossed my mind once or twice, I understand it may or may not work but it sounds like it's all I have left to try.

You see my situation is strange, they both appear to be friends through the gaps in their cages it's just when they meet the dominance fighting turns into real fighting very quickly.. this never use to happen. so In my case, I have learned that they could spend 5 month apart or just 5 days and you would get the same result. It's not how long they spend apart, for instance the fight was a couple of hours ago yet I can already hear them making friendly chatter to each other, totally none aggressive, in a few days they will be back to normal.

I think I know the problem, they are fine until one of them tries to dominate then it turns into real fighting.. that is causing me great problems as everybody knows some dominace fighting most occur, what I need to figure out is how to get them to go from dominace fighting back to just getting on with other activities and avoiding an escalating fight ....

maybe I should try getting them the snip....

[deguconvert]

I don't know what to tell you exactly . . . introductions are always a little different due to the different personalities involved, and the unknown reasons that the degus have chosen to fight. If it is grudge related, that is a hard one to get past. I have on a few rare occassions suggested that a time of solitary confinement sometimes reverses things, but it is somewhat controvertial. In your case I think you would have to treat both Bobby and Taco to the solitary time. They would need to be placed such that they are no where near another degu, no sight, sound, or smell of them. The next thing is, you refuse to feel sorry for them, so other than ensuring that they have food and water, you do not interact with them. They are entirely refused social interaction. This may last from three to five days. Then you bring them back together for another introduction time, in the bathtub, but without the toys, hay and other things. Just you and them. You might even climb in with them to be right there. And then . . . with grim determination, you completely refuse to let them initiate any fighting. You take the position of top goo here, and you need to eminate a "don't mess with me" attitude. This is something that could take a few hours of monitoring and insisting that they not fight but get along. Persistence, patience, and that block of time will help to cement into their brains that they will get along.

You may well not want to do this, and I would so completely understand that. It is certainly not something I suggest lightly.

[degualot]

I think I will try that before neutering them. It's better than having to go through a procedure like that so Yes I will try the solitary confinement idea. I don't mind getting radical, I'm all for new ideas since the old ones do not work at all.

It's either that or I get them both snipped and go from there, your right, these two guys are holding a big grudge, is it ok for me to talk in a different tone, so if we are in the bath and they fight, can I clap my hand loud and say NO!!! in a firm voice...would that be ok...

I realise neutering probably won't help but i'll try this first then possibly get them neutered ready for possible intergration with other degus such as female Goos. Again this is an extreme situation which I hope it doesn't resort to but this is very down the line.

seriously when they were grooming each other I could see the contentment in their faces, Taco lifted his arm up for bobby to get to so I know they still have some love for each other. Just need to get through it...

[deguconvert]

Yes, totally use a different tone. It's all about making sure they know they have to listen to you. You don't need to display anger or aggression, but they need to know that you mean business and expect them to do as you are asking. They will respect that, too.

Yeah, I'm certain that once you can get them past things, they will forget the grudge and remember the happy. Just be determined to take as much time as you need to get them past it all. If you quit as soon as a fight breaks out, they will think they've won and it will be the memory that sticks with them. You don't want that, you want them to remember being happy together. It probably wouldn't hurt to have some treats on hand so that when you see them being happy together, you reinforce it with something they like . . . but only one little bit at a time, you don't want it to become a feeding frenzy, keep the focus on getting along as much as you can. If you can put aside a few hours for this, I think you will be able to see it through to a happy ending.

[degualot]

ok they have both calmed down, we are using a rabbit run to try putting them together... my wife can sit in the run as it's open topped, she is in their right now acting as the third goo. They seem ok but, now and then they turn a little aggresive and she is using a film voice and saying no while sperating them with a cloved hand when they look like they are getting too aggressive, going to try this for a couple of hours..


God the things you do for your Goos.

[deguconvert]

LOL!!! I know!! They are little tyrrants aren't they??

[degualot]

they are indeed, not one of them wants to give in, Bobby is trying to eat treats but taco is not giving in...

we've calling it a day for today, will try again tommorrow....

we were planning on building a huge wood cage for them but since this started we have put plans on hold. They are just making it worse for themselves. They don't understand why I guess...

I always think, they were brothers before for a year, they will be brothers again. I just got to keep thinking that...

[deguconvert]

LOL! I applaud your efforts. Determination goes such a long way. When our boys were sort of new . . . they all fell out . . . and it took about 5 months to get them back into a happy group of three. After we succeeded there . . . PHEW . . . I then focused on taming the third that just sort of stayed in the back ground with all the fighting the other two were having. WELL!! We had decided to name him Snuggabug, but Jaws was the behavior he exhibitted. It took me a good three months at least, but I was SO determined that he would BE Snuggabug and NOT JAWS, that I wouldn't relent. After much blood (mine), and tons of time daily, he finally began to trust, and now he truly IS Snuggabug.

You can get them together, I'm sure of it. However, we all have an end . . . so if you reach yours, that's OK, too!

[degualot]

thanks for the faith, I don't want to give up ever, I mean it's different if they were both strangers but because I know they use to be really good friends it makes me not want to give up...

like you say, just have to keep at it:)

[degualot]

Jesus, these guys are just playing with my mind.... ok they are chating away through the cage like two old wives at the hairdressers. In a really nice happy voice, minute I take them out of the cage, grunting..

Put them back,, grunting stops after about 10 minutes, back to friendly sounds. If I take one away for play bring him back, grunting again, 10 minutes later, back to normal..

God are they messing with me or what?

[deguconvert]

It sure sounds like it!!! Have you tried just having them in the cage together? Ready to pull them apart of course. I don't know what their issue is, except to think that maybe they don't remember who is the boss when they are outside the cage?

[degualot]

I think I may try that to be honest, i've already prepared by removing a lot of cage obstacles in one other cages, I put my spatchula in to see if I could effectively seperate them if I need to and I can reach every part of the cage. It's a P@H cage for the minute until they both get back together. So I plan on letting then settle for a few days. Taco is still sore of the last bite so I got to watch his wound. Let him get a bit better then next weekend i'll tey that... Taco is really down, he's biting his arm bare. He's the only Degu I have that does that....... He's obviously depressed but nothing I can do at the moment... JOY

[deguconvert]

Yeah . . . it's hard to be there, seeing their distress, but not being able to help them quickly past their issues. If only we could speak clearly with them and they with us, it would be so much easier. I'll be watching to see how things are going for you.

[degualot]

Thanks I really appreciate the support. It's very frustrating. I will keep you posted on all developments and with the progress or lack of. Everytime I fail it does set me back to the point of nearly giving up but I just can't let it go....

well here's to the future