Aggressive Degu!!

[raineyp]

Hi
I am new to this forum and am hoping that someone can provide some much needed help regarding one of my boys!

We got Bert (standard tweed) and Ernie (grey/blue) just under a year ago. Bert has always been 'hyper' whilst Ernie is very 'laid back'. Ernie is dominant when it comes to food and he used to put Bert in his place if he got 'over enthusiastic' during play. (Bert had a habit of literally ambushing Ernie, biting his bum and then running off). This was originally just his way of saying 'come and chase me' - but over the last couple of months it has turned more aggressive. So much so, that Ernie doesn't really want to come out of the cage to play and his happy to play on his wheel. However, over the last two weeks Bert has started to 'stalk' Ernie in the cage and bite him. Poor Ernie is becoming a bag of nerves and last night things got so bad he was squeaking in distress and desperately trying to run away from Bert and hide.

Bert seems to be intent on just terrorising Ernie, rather than playing - and he won't interact with me at all now (he used to love climbing over me and playing 'den' under my legs when I am kneeling on the floor).
Firstly, we thought it could be a dominance issue over what Bert sees as his 'territory' when they come out to play, but this is extending to the cage now! We have tried letting them out separately - Ernie is quite happy to do this and enjoys running around and playing in peace. But as soon as he goes back into the cage, Bert starts chasing him and trying to bite him!
Bert is really manic and just flings himself around the cage - he's suffered a torn ear and cut nose so far! He goes around the cage just biting/chewing the nearest thing to him (he does this whilst he's out too!). He doesn't like being groomed and doesn't snuggle up to Ernie to go to sleep. In fact, he is becoming really anti-social.
Is this a dominance phase that will pass? Or is it likely to get worse?

Please can anyone provide some help/guidance?
xx

[nickymills30]

oh hun, i;m really sorry to hear your goo's aren't getting on. Even though you have had them, for over a year, are you sure they are both boys?

I had 2 boys, and bought another, to go with them, long story short, the 3rd one was a girl. One of the males, would constantly chase her around.

Anyway i was very lucky, as she wasn't pregnant.

I;m def sure someone with more knowledge will be along shortly, and hopefully, be able to help you more x

[raineyp]

Hi
Thanks for your reply.

Definitely both boys - although Bert seem to be totally fascinated with Ernie's 'bits', constantly trying to sniff and 'groom' them! The problem is, he lulls Ern into a false sense of security, as he then has a crafty nip!!
Ern is totally submissive and puts his bum towards Bert whenever he goes near him - yet when it comes to food, Ern is totally in charge!!

I know each degu has their own individual character - but our two are polar opposites!! Perhaps it's the probiotic we put in their drinking water making him hyper!
Is it possible for degu's to have ADHD? Cos I'm sure Bert has got it!
xx

[fred]

Hello and welcome to the forum. I hope we will be able to help you with your problem. What you describe doesn't sound like a regular dominance issue. They rather seem to have some communication problems. Do you ever see them fighting with each other? How does Ernie's dominance over food show itself? Sorry it's only questions for now. Hopefully you will soon get some suggestions by others who have more experience in dominance / behaviour questions.

[raineyp]

Hi and thanks

Ernie uses his bum to literally shove Bert out of the way when food is the issue!! Bert doesn't seem that bothered as he never stays still long enough to eat (or at least that's what it seems!)

When things were calmer and they had finished their playtime, their routine was to sit on their 'special oats mat' and have some oats each (then it's another roll in the sand bath and then in the cage). Ern is quite happy to sit and eat his oats but Bert just runs around like a hyperactive child nipping at Ernie's bum, trying to goad him into responding.
They used to chase each other then stop and have a 'box' but now it is Bert chasing Ernie all the time and biting him when he gets close enough!
It sounds a bit dramatic, but Bert literally gets this look in his eyes and is just intent on stalking Ern!!
I am desperate for some advice as playtime is becoming really fraught and poor Ernie is becoming a bag of nerves!!

[fred]

When you wrote “gets this look in his eyes”, this rang a bell with me. I observed this with one of my girls, who can be hyper and I sometimes wonder whether it's a very mild form of something like ADHD. I am lucky in that she only has a go on some wood or fabric and not her sister, but I think I have an idea what you are talking about.

It's a bit quiet here at the moment because of the holidays, and good suggestions may be a bit slow in coming. So please be patient, I am equally interested to find some answers.

Would you be able to separate your two boys for a while if necessary?

[deguconvert]

I am a little perplexed by this, I must say. I don't think this is truly a dominance issue either, but I'm not exactly sure WHAT it is. It sounds like a throw back to adolescent times and acting out, and that can't be changed so much as endured. It's quite a knotty problem!

Like Fred, I am wondering if you can separate them if needed? Bert is not being social with you either? Has he given you any warning signs when you approach him, tail wag, foot thump, growls, even turning his bum to you persistently? If he is using any of these with you, he is certainly being aggressively anti-social. I'll wait to see what you reply before saying anything further.

[raineyp]

Hi guys

Firstly, I am SO glad that someone else understands my 'look in his eyes' comment! It's literally like he has this wild eyed, staring look and not his normal self!
Bert has started doing this little sort of foot thumping 'dance' and chatters his teeth (like he was really cold) - that's usually before one of these 'episodes' (which are becoming more often!!).
Tail flicking is something he's always done - we've put it down to excitement (he squeaks too - like little girls do when they get excited!!)

Bert & Ernie have their own bedroom (along with a computer unit) which they have the run of when we let them out to play and we did wonder if Bert was being territorial regarding the room as his 'domain', but his behavior is beginning to extend to the cage if Ern does venture out to use the dust bath (which Bert then circles ready to ambush him!).
I thought Bert was perhaps jealous of sharing my attention with Ern, although he gets most of my attention actually!!
We are looking at buying one of the John Hopewell cages which have the dividing section which would keep them apart (if needed). In the mean time we have said that we will buy another cage from the pet shop(just in case!!).

I am really grateful for all the replies as I am desperate to find out why Bert has turned Psycho!!

[fred]

As regards the WHAT, it may not be that fanciful to think of ADHD. ADHD-like symptoms can actually be induced in degus. I am currently fighting my way through a PHD Thesis describing this study, but so far it doesn't give me any ideas. I'll also post the question on a German degu forum, where I have seen a similar question come up a while ago.

[raineyp]

Hi Fred

WOW, firstly I am so grateful that you have suggested that Bert could be showing ADHD like symptoms (and I'm not just a neurotic mum!!)
If these symptoms can be induced, is it something that we are doing to cause it?
Secondly, I am majorly impressed that you are doing a PHd - good luck with that.
Thanks also for trying the German forum for further information & I shall look forward to hearing what you find.

Thanks again

[fred]

Sorry, my last post was a bit unclear. I am not doing a PhD on this (beyond that stage luckily ) but found a PhD Thesis written in 2007 in a German lab working specifically on degus. The induction happens in the first three weeks, so nothing you (or I for that matter) could have done about it. And there is of course no way to say whether anything at all may have happened to our degus at that age. At the moment the only thing we can say is that ADHD-like symptoms have been reported in several rodents and should not be excluded when we observe behaviour which we cannot explain by their normal repertoire. I will keep you updated what I find.

[raineyp]

Hi Fred

Sorry about the confusion - but am still impressed that you are 'beyond the PHd thesis stage'!!

Thanks again for your help.

[deguconvert]

This might be a truly stupid suggestion, so I want to hear if it is. LOL! Just thinking about different things that can help with balancing a body and a mind. Evening Primrose Oil is something that is very beneficial in this area, and is also something that can be given in small amounts to degus, usually dribbled over their food. (I know that Degutopia talks about it, but I've never personally read the material.) My thought is that it might be worth a try for a span of time to see if it will bring about a calming influence.

It is also my understanding that there are other oils that work well in humans, but I don't know what they are, nor if they would be suitable for degus, but . . . would it be worth researching?

[raineyp]

Hi

Thanks for the suggestion and definitely not a stupid question!
It's a holiday here today but I am pretty sure that my local chemist will be open, so I shall see if they have any Evening Primrose oil.

I'm willing to try anything to help calm Bert down and this sounds like a great idea. I will keep you updated.
xx

[raineyp]

Hi

Have spoken to our vet about Bert's behaviour and they have recommended having him neutered! I know that this is quite risky for such small animals so am reluctant to agree.
Also, I have read that neutering doesn't actually affect aggressive behaviour!!
Can anyone advise?

Many thanks

[fred]

From what we have heard from you, Bert's behaviour doesn't seem aggressive but – 1 hope you don't mind me saying so – just strange. I don't really see how neutering should help here. It's quite a routine procedure these days but I would also be reluctant without a good explanation what it is supposed to effect in Bert's case?

I have two questions at the moment. You wrote that it was getting worse in the last two months. Is it the same kind of behaviour that is gradually getting worse or have you seen different behaviour in these two months? Or in other words, is he going from hyper to very hyper, or his he going from hyper to hyper plus strange/aggressive? I am afraid that may not have been very clear but I hope you get the general gist of the question.

Second, would you be able to let the two have time out of the cage in different rooms? Just so that you can find out how much Bert's attitude towards you has changed without Ernie (passively) interfering?

[deguconvert]

I wouldn't be looking at neutering just yet, either. I don't think his behavior is hormone driven at this point, so the surgery likely won't change it. I think Fred's suggestion of taking them out for separate play times, so as to get a measure of Bert's interactions with you and only you is a very good one. This way you can watch him and learn if he is still doing unusual things even without Ernie present.

[raineyp]

Hi there

OK, things are just getting more and more bizarre!
Last night I gave the boys a run (having not been near them for two days, leaving hubbie to have boys nights!).
I let Bert out on his own and shut the cage up so he couldn't get back in to Ernie (who was quite happy to play on one of the wheels). After a little while, Bert started to play just like he used to do. I knelt on the floor and he was running from the back to the front and then crawling over my arms (OK, he didn't go on my shoulder, but you can't have everything).

He then tried to get into the cage so I opened it up and watched him like a hawk when he went back in. He followed Ernie round the cage and spent ages grooming his 'male bits' (which Ern allows him to do!!). In fact, he seems to spend most of his time trying to either groom Ernie's 'bits' or mount him!
Anyway, Ern had enough of being groomed and then chased Bert around the cage and then came out of the cage and chased him around the room!! It was literally a complete role reversal - Ernie chasing Bert around the room (only, in play and not aggressive!!)
This went on for a good 20 minutes - with Bert being chased and squeaking like an excited 4 year old child in a swimming pool!!
It was wonderful to see them having fun together.
They then went back into the cage with no problems at all.

About 5 minutes later, Bert started barking (a continuous repeated short bark). I reassured him, but he kept on doing it (even managing with a piece of kitchen roll in his mouth!!).
This went on for about 5 minutes and then stopped.
I am hoping that last night was a 'turning point' and perhaps he can now see that by playing nicely he can have a lot more fun!!

With regards to the changes in his behavior over the last couple of months - Bert has always been mega hyper (biting the bars of the cage etc), and has always been very vocal - whereas Ernie doesn't make a sound). In fact, my husband has always called him 'Bonkers Bert!
But over the last few months his behavior has gone from boisterous playing, to downright aggressive bullying.

Do you think that being neutered would help him with his obsession with constantly trying to mount Ernie? (who is totally fed up with it all, bless him!!)

[fred]

What to make of this ?? ?? I think you should repeat what you did last night and see whether he responds in the same way. Let us know how it develops.

I would only begin to consider neutering if it's really an aggression issue. From all so far, this doesn't seem to be the case.

[deguconvert]

The barking you describe is a successful mating bark. So it sounds like Bert had some kind of satisfaction, whether brought on by himself or by humping Ernie. Hopefully you are right and this will turn the corner for them. Perhaps Bert was sexually frustrated? I know that sounds odd . . . but male degus are known to bring about their own pleasure fairly often, and if Bert didn't know "how" maybe he had nasty frustrations that were driving him a little crazy.